Cespedes Re-signs with the Mets

[LDF]

Ok, gotta ask:

What / who the hell is that in your avatar???

 

dang, some music group, the main singer is making movies now, good actor. he was in Be Cool movie i think.

 

i may be wrong.

[oldsox]

L. Ron taught me something, I think. Avi came back from injury with a different swing -- the hitch. It explains why his hitting went South. He was a much better hitter before the injury.

 

Lets hope he is back to normal.

[southsider2k5]

Let me oversimplify what's going on here so you can understand it a little better.

 

The Exec VP of Baseball Operations and the General Manager are on record of saying they want to "maximize" the opportunity presented by the current core of players in the next few years to compete for a championship.

 

We still have some big holes surrounding the core that if they go uncorrected, will not allow us to "maximize" this opportunity.

 

Any solution available to us at the moment to correct one of these holes will have an impact on the future, be it trading away elite talent we have in the minors to acquire a solution, or spending money in the open market that could limit options in the future beyond the current window of opportunity.

 

Signing Yoenis Cespedes to a five year contract is the best option at the moment to both solve one of the remaining obstacles to "maximizing" the current window, while having the least amount of impact on future endeavors. Because of the team friendly contracts currently in place through '19 and '20, the addition of Cespedes at this point in time in no way resembles a scenario that "destroys the future". Not even close. So which is better - having Cespedes on the books in '19 and '20 or potentially not having Anderson and Fulmer on this team then in the prime of their careers. I think the answer is pretty obvious.

 

So take your pick, SS2K5. Either trade away Anderson or Fulmer to acquire Major League talent to help boost this team over the top, or sign Cespedes. Those are the two options that will best enable the team to "maximize" blah blah blah. Doing nothing and standing pat because we're shaking in our boots about possible ramifications down the road ain't gonna get it done. Signing a second tier, cheaper outfield solution does not "maximize" our ability to compete because Cespedes >>> than those options. If you have a better answer, let's hear it. We're all ears!!

 

You are WAY oversimplifying what has been said. Again, I wouldn't think they need to say "without destroying the future", but I guess for some it is absolutely necessary, because you are taking it literally. I think it also goes a long way to rebutting the idea that Kenny Williams is still controlling the puppet strings, because Kenny wouldn't have the patience to build both the majors and minors at the same time, and not WAY over pay to do it.

 

I don't know how you can take a statement like that, and turn it into we will literally do anything and everything to win today, no matter what. But, at the same time, I am not really surprised by it.

[caulfield12]

L. Ron taught me something, I think. Avi came back from injury with a different swing -- the hitch. It explains why his hitting went South. He was a much better hitter before the injury.

 

Lets hope he is back to normal.

 

If it was that simple, Stevenson would have fixed it last season. We have a video guy who can do sophisticated computerized swing analysis just like golfers do.

 

It's the kind of thing guys like DJ and Harrelson notice right away...and pass on or talk directly to the player about.

 

We saw it five consecutive years with Gordon Beckham.

[southsider2k5]

You are WAY oversimplifying what has been said. Again, I wouldn't think they need to say "without destroying the future", but I guess for some it is absolutely necessary, because you are taking it literally. I think it also goes a long way to rebutting the idea that Kenny Williams is still controlling the puppet strings, because Kenny wouldn't have the patience to build both the majors and minors at the same time, and not WAY over pay to do it.

 

I don't know how you can take a statement like that, and turn it into we will literally do anything and everything to win today, no matter what. But, at the same time, I am not really surprised by it.

 

Or let me make it more obvious. When you wife asks "does this make me look fat", do you take her at a literal sense to answer the question or do you get that you are supposed to read between the lines and get what is really being said?

[Steve9347]

This does feel sooo much like Lebron.

The only problem here is Cespedes is barely a difference maker. Too bad the Sox OF is so bad that he'd be their best one.

[venom4789]

So have we missed the train, it seems all i see is the choice is down to mets and nats. Or maybe we have become the mystery team.

[Harry Chappas]

Avi is serviceable as a hitter.

 

The fact the guy cannot figure out how to run the bases and his defense is abysmal is why the future is not really bright with him around.

[hi8is]

So have we missed the train, it seems all i see is the choice is down to mets and nats. Or maybe we have become the mystery team.

Am I on a merry go round from hell or something?

[venom4789]

Am I on a merry go round from hell or something?

sorry there is a lot of fluff between and i had over 50 pages to get caught back up.

 

On a random note i have never met a merry go round that i liked, guess i found the horses creepy looking.

[hi8is]

sorry there is a lot of fluff between and i had over 50 pages to get caught back up.

 

On a random note i have never met a merry go round that i liked, guess i found the horses creepy looking.

So, all merry go rounds are from hell. Noted.

 

That's like the most useful information out of this thread for the last week. Kinda.

 

One last thing: end saga- end!!! February until pitchers and catchers report is going to drag ass.

 

+1 maturity point... Not.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Always enjoy the rock solid analysis in your posts, but seems to me that we're circling around the same point and might not be in disagreement at all. I'm in no way suggesting that "our" preferred terms includes three years for anyone, no matter what. We can all quibble about the baseball pros and cons of the talent targeted by RH and the Sox (and I think we've been less than adequate overall in targeting the right people), but it strikes me as silly to think that RH and company lack the intelligence to do his full-time job in a professional manner. Hahn is a Harvard educated attorney; listen to him for a minute and you realize he's a very bright individual.

 

Despite the goofiness of media blurbs, does anyone think for a moment that the Sox would actually have a "three or no deal" policy, no matter what? You're right, if that were "our" policy, we'd be entirely out of synch with the rest of baseball.

 

Instead, and what I was suggesting, was "we" value specific targets in specific ways. Stated differently, there might be "nice to haves" and then "must haves." It's perfectly reasonable to assume that in the opinion of those whose opinions matter for the organization (management -- not the fans and certainly not the media), management determined Cespedes to be a "nice to have." Get him on our terms and we'll take the known risks (obviously with the considerable upside potential too); however, no taking unnecessary risks (outside of our terms), no chasing.

 

On a personal level, I think that getting any one of the big-three (not relevant now, but I preferred Gordon's skill set overall for this team, although I think Gordon was never truly on the market at all) actually a "must have" and the calculus changes to something dramatically different than the calculus for the nice to haves.

 

Everyone can have their opinion, of course, but no way do the Sox have some rigid "three years or bust" policy. In fact, I'm convinced knowing their past, knowing the creativity of the management team, and knowing the near inside info I was told, they presented a three year deal with a host of asterisks -- an opt out and option years. That's what THEY thought Cespedes was worth. It doesn't matter that WE might have disagreed or done differently if we were holding down their jobs.

 

Finally, the Sox did what it took to reel in Adam Dunn with a four year deal -- Dunn's best deal on that market. They considered him and his left-handed boom or bust approach a must have at the time (somehow I wasn't around when they called to ask my opinion, so they missed me telling them that I've always hated that style of slugger). Just last year, they bested the market and gave David Robertson a four year deal because they considered getting that "lock-down closer" a must have.

 

They'll do what it takes when a guy achieves that "must have" status, but they'll let the "nice to haves" go if the price exceeds their internal assessment of value.

 

That's a sound way to run any business that isn't simply a play-toy of a wealthy billionaire owner. I think a lot of the angst going on in this thread is simply some Sox fans valuing Cespedes more than Sox management does. Now, continually making the wrong choices is a good way for management to lose their job, but sticking to sound process is not.

 

This is an excellent post

 

[CyAcosta41]

Obviously it was a reply to Cy Acosta...if we can't talk about the risks of standing pat that goes along with the assumption that Cespedes isn't worth the attendant risk, then what's the point of discussing Cespedes at all anymore?

 

Great, Cespedes...too risky!

 

So then what?

 

Please explain what move doesn't carry a downside. Cali has been arguing about Cespedes for weeks and nobody has rebutted his point that we don't have enough proven run producers...highlighting that fact with his RBI and RISP (which will inevitably be described as luck or random or anomalies) numbers but I have yet to see a good response other than just a string of personal character attacks on Cespedes from shadowy sources.

 

 

Short answer because I'm aware that I easily fall into the category of posters who can make every post a Supreme Court brief.

 

Of course every move carries a possible downside -- the downside of making affirmative moves A, B, or C, and the downside of making no affirmative move at all in standing pat. Umm ... exactly why are we arguing the obvious.

 

My most basic point is let the pros do their job. I get that it's an awful lot of fun for fans that truly understand and study the game to play armchair GM or manager. I'm guilty as charged myself. Big time.

 

But, I also try hard to keep in mind that the people who actually have these jobs in the real world, people who generally have made baseball their life's work, have access to a lot more information than we do, and virtually every one of them are working hard to make sound, professional, and sometimes shrewd decisions to earn their keep and advance their personal careers.

 

Back on point, while many of us believe Cespedes is a must-have given the current makeup of this team and our window for contention (and I lean slightly in this direction myself), it's certainly possible that those ACTUALLY making the decisions don't agree. RH and company might indeed feel that Cespedes (or Upton or Gordon) are nothing more than nice-to-haves -- they'll acquire them at no more than X, and failing that will go forward with alternate plans (likely not explaining those alternate plans to any one of us).

 

If a real world GM is wrong too often -- failing to land Cespedes because unwilling to do what it takes, deciding on stiffs like Davidson, LaRoche, and (perhaps) Avi instead of better choices -- then said GM won't be long for GM world.

 

I'll always have my own opinion on preferred ways to build a franchise and, of course, on particular players, but I'll confess that at times like this I get tired of fans who think their own way is THE way and the pros who do this for a living simply don't know what they're doing.

 

[rcpweiner]

Logging on to request this thread's name be changed to CesThreades.

 

Goodbye again.

[Hatchetman]

I'll always have my own opinion on preferred ways to build a franchise and, of course, on particular players, but I'll confess that at times like this I get tired of fans who think their own way is THE way and the pros who do this for a living simply don't know what they're doing.

 

Sox haven't given us much reason to believe they know what they are doing.

[Lip Man 1]

Cy:

 

I think your posts are well thought out and logical but I did notice this statement from you, "Now, continually making the wrong choices is a good way for management to lose their job, but sticking to sound process is not."

 

In a 'normal' organization you'd be correct. I submit however the Sox are not 'normal' everyone is well awhere of JR's loyalty factor. I mean six losing seasons in the last nine years is the worst stretch of sustained bad baseball for the franchise sine 1968-1980. Throw in dropping attendance in nine of the past 10 years from the season before and TV ratings dead last and you'd think changes would have been made long before this.

 

But they haven't been.

 

The Sox won't even fire a manager who has the worst winning percentage in franchise history for any manager who lasted four full seasons.

 

What can you do? Loyalty appears to mean more than accountability in the front office and certainly on the field or else Dunn and LaRoche would have been cut a long time ago too to cite two examples of players.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

Edited January 22, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[Dick Allen]

Cy:

 

I think your posts are well thought out and logical but I did notice this statement from you, "Now, continually making the wrong choices is a good way for management to lose their job, but sticking to sound process is not."

 

In a 'normal' organization you'd be correct. I submit however the Sox are not 'normal' everyone is well awhere of JR's loyalty factor. I mean six losing seasons in the last nine years is the worst stretch of sustained bad baseball for the franchise sine 1968-1980. Throw in dropping attendance in nine of the past 10 years from the season before and TV ratings dead last and you'd think changes would have been made long before this.

 

But they haven't been.

 

The Sox won't even fire a manager who has the worst winning percentage in franchise history for any manager who lasted four full seasons.

 

What can you do? Loyalty appears to mean more than accountability in the front office and certainly on the field or else Dunn and LaRoche would have been cut a long time ago too to cite two examples of players.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

New GM new Scouting director all new position players since 2013. New Latin America presence. Yeah nothing ever changes.

[Special K]

Dick is a staunch defender of sox brass. Any criticisms you have about the organization? They haven't made the playoffs in almost a decade. Somewhere in that organization something is going wrong, whether it be manager, front office or players. But even if you lay all blame on players, that's still a reflection on how selected them.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Cy:

 

I think your posts are well thought out and logical but I did notice this statement from you, "Now, continually making the wrong choices is a good way for management to lose their job, but sticking to sound process is not."

 

In a 'normal' organization you'd be correct. I submit however the Sox are not 'normal' everyone is well awhere of JR's loyalty factor. I mean six losing seasons in the last nine years is the worst stretch of sustained bad baseball for the franchise sine 1968-1980. Throw in dropping attendance in nine of the past 10 years from the season before and TV ratings dead last and you'd think changes would have been made long before this.

 

But they haven't been.

 

The Sox won't even fire a manager who has the worst winning percentage in franchise history for any manager who lasted four full seasons.

 

What can you do? Loyalty appears to mean more than accountability in the front office and certainly on the field or else Dunn and LaRoche would have been cut a long time ago too to cite two examples of players.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

This is the one thing that is truly shocking. You mean to tell me NO ONE in that organization has maybe spoken up and said, "You know what? We need to get a manager that can coach these players and is able to get them to perform to the best of their abilities." I know managers get the short end of the stick all time and are more often than not treated as scapegoats, but you can't tell me with a straight face the Sox are bringing in the worst players year in and year out in all of baseball. Loot at the amount of players that fall flat on their faces and end well below their career numbers.

[OmarComing25]

Dick is a staunch defender of sox brass. Any criticisms you have about the organization? They haven't made the playoffs in almost a decade. Somewhere in that organization something is going wrong, whether it be manager, front office or players. But even if you lay all blame on players, that's still a reflection on how selected them.

Was anything Dick said wrong? Lip said no changes have been made and Dick listed several. He said there's no accountability for the players yet there's no position player remaining from Opening Day 2013. There are plenty of criticisms to be had for the Sox brass, but not cutting LaRoche "long ago" is not one of them. That seems like a major reach. There's nothing wrong with criticism, but at least be right when you do it.

[Condor13]

Dick is a staunch defender of sox brass. Any criticisms you have about the organization? They haven't made the playoffs in almost a decade. Somewhere in that organization something is going wrong, whether it be manager, front office or players. But even if you lay all blame on players, that's still a reflection on how selected them.

 

What is going wrong is that Kenny Williams is still there and has wayyyyy too much say.

 

The Cespedes saga should end shortly (24-48 hours) when according to multiple reports he will make his decison. At that point we all already know the sox dropped the ball yet again.

 

The Sox better be trying to aquire CarGo (either one) or somebody with an impact bat very soon after Cespedes makes his decision.

[hi8is]

Dick is a staunch defender of sox brass. Any criticisms you have about the organization? They haven't made the playoffs in almost a decade. Somewhere in that organization something is going wrong, whether it be manager, front office or players. But even if you lay all blame on players, that's still a reflection on how selected them.

To be fair - we're also talking about a franchise that is over 100 years old and only has 10 playoff appearances. They're due.

[Special K]

Was anything Dick said wrong? Lip said no changes have been made and Dick listed several. He said there's no accountability for the players yet there's no position player remaining from Opening Day 2013. There are plenty of criticisms to be had for the Sox brass, but not cutting LaRoche "long ago" is not one of them. That seems like a major reach. There's nothing wrong with criticism, but at least be right when you do it.

 

Dick was right. I just notice that he defends sox brass staunchly. The organization is struggling right now. If it's all KW, then JR needs to fire him or sell. We're in the 3rd largest city in the country and 0 playoff appearances in 8 years is pathetic.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Jeez. Last offsesason it was Eminor and I vs. You, chitownsportsfan and Rock Raines on Avi. Then I would go to war with Dick Allen saying Gordon Beckham sucks too. People are all like "I just want the offseason to be over" but the alternative isn't great, hah.

 

Last offseason he deserved a chance . He had that chance . He failed and now is not the time to be patient with him. He needs coaching and perhaps he is better off in the minors this year because the window is shrinking and question marks can't be addressed at the ML level . The Sox need proven production.

[OmarComing25]

Dick was right. I just notice that he defends sox brass staunchly. The organization is struggling right now. If it's all KW, then JR needs to fire him or sell. We're in the 3rd largest city in the country and 0 playoff appearances in 8 years is pathetic.

I agree with you, and I wish KW had been put out to pasture already, but I don't mind calling out weak criticism when it's warranted either.