Cespedes Re-signs with the Mets

[mataipaepae]

Would it be possible to sign Cespedes then turn around and sign Parra? Would it be worth it? Obviously melky is the full time DH now. Parra gives us a decent left handed bat and a cannon in LF.

[blackmooncreeping]

Would it be possible to sign Cespedes then turn around and sign Parra? Would it be worth it? Obviously melky is the full time DH now. Parra gives us a decent left handed bat and a cannon in LF.

Only if JR approves a $140 million payroll, or we can figure out a way to get rid of Laroche

[ptatc]

2017 was always going to be the key year after most of last season's acquisitions fizzled out or under-performed badly. They re-opened that window again and went all-in, so of course the thinking has changed (once again).

 

Now, they THEORETICALLY can compete with the current roster, but you can also make an argument for every single team in the AL with that line of thinking (compared to the NL, where you can eliminate 5-6 teams instantly).

 

And they do have a current two-year window to compete (again), simply because of the players who will be leaving after 2017.

 

We also don't have the luxury of knowing how Semien would have performed if given more time (compared to what Lawrie will do, and the fact he will have to be replaced). They would also be a lot better off having Bassitt or Montas as insurance for a hole in the rotation than Jacob Turner or Beck, but we'll find out how long they can go without having to use another starting pitcher.

 

Right now, it's not looking particularly optimistic in terms of our position prospects unless Trey M., Engel, May and Hawkins make a lot more progress. We still don't have a catching solution in sight. The best-case scenario is that Fulmer and Anderson are both Rookie of the Year candidates in 2017 and 100% experienced and even better in 2018, like we expect that same progression from Rodon to take place this year.

 

Quite obviously, Upton/Cespedes (Gordon to a lesser extent) would ALSO be the bridge to a new reloading in 2018...if it happens.

Again, why do they have to be all in? The team is better. They dont have a two year window, it became longer. They upgraded the team while creating a bridge to the players you mentioned are ready. These moves created a now without hurting the future.

I don't see where any of these moves shorten any window.

[dpd9189]

Again, why do they have to be all in? The team is better. They dont have a two year window, it became longer. They upgraded the team while creating a bridge to the players you mentioned are ready. These moves created a now without hurting the future.

I don't see where any of these moves shorten any window.

 

FWIW I still think as of now the Royals are the team to beat in the ALC. They were completely dominant last year and that was without Gordon, Zobrist and Cueto for most of the year. I also anticipate them to make some moves before the offseason is done.

[Baron]

FWIW I still think as of now the Royals are the team to beat in the ALC. They were completely dominant last year and that was without Gordon, Zobrist and Cueto for most of the year. I also anticipate them to make some moves before the offseason is done.

 

Even if they may have an advantage now they wont in a few years. When most of the talent on their roster becomes free agents. Big hits in 17 and in 18. Right now they've been dormant and are playing hard ball with Alex Gordon because of potential money issues. I dont see them doing much.

[hi8is]

It seems just like yesterday that this thread was at 18 pages. Geez. Two days of my life - poof. Gone.

[caulfield12]

Again, why do they have to be all in? The team is better. They dont have a two year window, it became longer. They upgraded the team while creating a bridge to the players you mentioned are ready. These moves created a now without hurting the future.

I don't see where any of these moves shorten any window.

 

Better...but "better enough"?

 

They're seemingly close to being competitive...but do you honestly believe without adding any more players they have a better than 5-10% chance at making the playoffs?

 

I'm of the school of thought, because of 2017 offering almost no free agent solutions (Carlos Gomez isn't even better the Eaton and is declining performance-wise)...that if there was ANY time to go for it, it's going to be right now.

 

Otherwise, you're punting the football back to 2018, because you're going to need time for guys like Tim Anderson and Fulmer to acclimate in 2017. You don't have Montas, so that means Fulmer and eventually Adams/Guerrero need to make a big impact.

 

 

And, it's also a little bit of the KW problem in the last half of his reign, the minor league system is no longer abundant enough that you can put enough secondary pieces together to pull off a huge trade...and/or you aren't willing to sacrifice one of your top 2-3 prospects.

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

And, it's also a little bit of the KW problem in the last half of his reign, the minor league system is no longer abundant enough that you can put enough secondary pieces together to pull off a huge trade...and/or you aren't willing to sacrifice one of your top 2-3 prospects.

I think you're underestimating our farm system. Fulmer, Anderson, Adams, Engel, Michxzsgnf, just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are some names I should have mentioned, plus 2 or 3 top draft choices coming up. Things are not as dire as you portray them.

[Jose Abreu]

Cespedes's last month of the season and playoff performance last year -- truly scary

He's extremely streaky.

[ptatc]

Better...but "better enough"?

 

They're seemingly close to being competitive...but do you honestly believe without adding any more players they have a better than 5-10% chance at making the playoffs?

 

I'm of the school of thought, because of 2017 offering almost no free agent solutions (Carlos Gomez isn't even better the Eaton and is declining performance-wise)...that if there was ANY time to go for it, it's going to be right now.

 

Otherwise, you're punting the football back to 2018, because you're going to need time for guys like Tim Anderson and Fulmer to acclimate in 2017. You don't have Montas, so that means Fulmer and eventually Adams/Guerrero need to make a big impact.

 

 

And, it's also a little bit of the KW problem in the last half of his reign, the minor league system is no longer abundant enough that you can put enough secondary pieces together to pull off a huge trade...and/or you aren't willing to sacrifice one of your top 2-3 prospects.

Better enough for what? Does it matter? The team doesn't have to "go for it" each year. As long as the team improves without damaging the future, it will have a consistently winning team. They may not make the playoffs with the team this year but with improvement this year and the next, they will start a pattern of consistency they need.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't add another piece this year. If they can add another piece without hurting the future, they should. However, if the cost to acquire that piece hurts outweighs the benefits for the future, they shouldn't. They don't have to take the attitude that they must make the playoffs this year and every year. If they need to wait a year to start to build a consistent winner, that's what they should do.

 

[peavy44]

I can see Cespedes getting a deal of 6 years $125-135 mil opt out after 3 years.

[Frank_Thomas]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ckamka/status/682283542110429184

 

Cespedes splits at Comerica, Citi Field, and every where else.

 

 

 

I've been undecided on which of the big three I prefer but over the past few days I really want us to sign YO. Hopefully soon.

[BigEdWalsh]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ckamka/status/682283542110429184

 

Cespedes splits at Comerica, Citi Field, and every where else.

 

 

 

I've been undecided on which of the big three I prefer but over the past few days I really want us to sign YO. Hopefully soon.

Initially I wanted Cespedes, then Gordon. Now I'm back to wanting or preferring Cespedes. One of them PLEASE!

[QuickJones81]

And, it's also a little bit of the KW problem in the last half of his reign, the minor league system is no longer abundant enough that you can put enough secondary pieces together to pull off a huge trade...and/or you aren't willing to sacrifice one of your top 2-3 prospects.

 

The deals for Samardjia, Lawrie, and Frazier were practically all secondary/depth prospects. Bassitt, Ravelo, Semien, Phegley. They were guys who were fringe prospects, who made pushes over the preceding year, and Hahn/KW dealt while their value was up. Semien may be a starter, but is probably just lineup filler like a Gillaspie, between true position anchors for a team. Bassitt is a nice back of the rotation/depth guy, but not a difference maker. Phegley doesn't look to be a major leaguer unless he made strides in Oakland this year that I wasn't aware of. Ravelo is probably the only one with true potential left, but he's just a good story at this point.

 

Wendelken and Erwin were trades made from depth on an inconsistent arm in Wendelken who could be special if he puts it all together, but more than likely will never achieve more than middle relief in his career. Erwin is young and unknown, but was a guy best suitied for dark horse discussions, and not a name everyone tossed around as a farm asset.

 

Thompson was a player who seemed to be a bust a year ago at this time and road his value to an all time high with a fantastic 40 game performance. He may finally be reaching his potential, as there was never any doubt in his tool potential, or he may fall back again to his mean once the book is written on his tendencies. Johnson was a dark horse prospect who shot up the org prospect ranks based on far better than expected performance in the minors, and a Brian Roberts approach to basestealing that he was able to use to fool a lot of catchers/pitchers in the lower levels. His time in Chicago opened up serious questions as to whether he could be a major leaguer, but like Thompson still has a chance to surprise in the end. Montas was the only true blue chip prospect dealt. A lottery ticket in the Peavy trade that hit, thus far, that projects to be a nasty reliever, or even a front line starter if the stars allign. Enough depth in this area of the farm and pro team made it OK to let a good one go to get something in return.

 

In short, I disagree with the lack of depth comment. Even after these deals there's enough Jordan Guerrero's, Chris Beck's, and Adam Engel's to entice other teams with visions of potential longterm steals without letting go of guys like Anderson, Fulmer, or Adams. I have been rather impressed in Hahn's ability to sell what appears to be high on a lot of these guys to land a bigger fish. A great way to manufacture roster value.

[Quin]

In short, I disagree with the lack of depth comment. Even after these deals there's enough Jordan Guerrero's, Chris Beck's, and Adam Engel's to entice other teams with visions of potential longterm steals without letting go of guys like Anderson, Fulmer, or Adams. I have been rather impressed in Hahn's ability to sell what appears to be high on a lot of these guys to land a bigger fish. A great way to manufacture roster value.

 

That's the key - the farm has definitely taken a hit with the Lawrie and Frazier deals in addition to losing Almonte and Jaye. That being said, they kept the three highest ceiling players, have a few more players that were around the level of Micah and Trayce and there's a big wave of talent coming from the 2015 draft.

[caulfield12]

My only concern is whether there's enough left if one of our starting pitchers goes down to fix the problem, if they're not willing to spend the money, they're going to have to give up talent and be in a relatively desperate situation.

 

Like it or not, our "quality" depth isn't there like with some of the better contending AL teams...we absolutely can't afford to have many injuries.

 

For example, at catcher.

 

I still feel that if you look at the majority of contending teams around baseball, a lot of them have had really strong leaders in that position, guys like Posey, Molina, Sal Perez, Russell Martin, Weiters, Cervelli more recently, Montero, McCann, maybe not all "great" players but consistent, stable veteran leadership behind the plate.

 

We just haven't had that since AJ, and it's critically important IMO.

[Dick Allen]

My only concern is whether there's enough left if one of our starting pitchers goes down to fix the problem, if they're not willing to spend the money, they're going to have to give up talent and be in a relatively desperate situation.

 

Like it or not, our "quality" depth isn't there like with some of the better contending AL teams...we absolutely can't afford to have many injuries.

 

For example, at catcher.

 

I still feel that if you look at the majority of contending teams around baseball, a lot of them have had really strong leaders in that position, guys like Posey, Molina, Sal Perez, Russell Martin, Weiters, Cervelli more recently, Montero, McCann, maybe not all "great" players but consistent, stable veteran leadership behind the plate.

 

We just haven't had that since AJ, and it's critically important IMO.

Alex Avila was the starting catcher for many playoff teams. We understand the White Sox don't have 25 all stars on their roster which apparently is need to make the playoffs. Your Royals had the worst staring pitching in the league last season, and the White Sox, as bad as they were at catcher, had more WAR from that position than they did, the future HOFer Sal Perez be damned.

[caulfield12]

Alex Avila was the starting catcher for many playoff teams. We understand the White Sox don't have 25 all stars on their roster which apparently is need to make the playoffs. Your Royals had the worst staring pitching in the league last season, and the White Sox, as bad as they were at catcher, had more WAR from that position than they did, the future HOFer Sal Perez be damned.

 

 

Was being the past tense...LaRoche was a good hitter in 2014, Samardzija a good pitcher.

 

Avila was last "good" in which year that he had 400+ at-bats?

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/p...ed-2/order/true

Here's a category the White Sox pitching staff overall was last in the AL, KC first. The Royals were better in whip, ERA, baa and ops.

 

Whether it's starters or relievers that are your comparative advantage, you still need solid defense and offensive balance.

 

And Complaining about starting pitching is irrelevant in the same way it will be in Yankees' games this season. If you have one of the top five bullpens in modern baseball history for two years running, why would you care if your starters go 6.5 vs. 5.25 innings on average?

Edited December 31, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Was being the past tense...LaRoche was a good hitter in 2014, Samardzija a good pitcher.

 

Avila was last "good" in which year that he had 400+ at-bats?

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/p...ed-2/order/true

Here's a category the White Sox pitching staff overall was last in the AL, KC first. The Royals were better in whip, ERA, baa and ops.

 

Whether it's starters or relievers that are your comparative advantage, you still need solid defense and offensive balance.

 

And Complaining about starting pitching is irrelevant in the same way it will be in Yankees' games this season. If you have one of the top five bullpens in modern baseball history for two years running, why would you care if your starters go 6.5 vs. 5.25 innings on average?

Then how did Wieters make your list? Adjust the goalposts again. I really don't understand what you chronic complainers get out of constantly complaining,. Baseball is a game. Games are supposed to be fun.

[caulfield12]

Sources: Industry belief is that the White Sox would prefer to sign an outfielder to a 4- or 5-year deal. May lessen chances for Upton.

 

Chris Cotillo

[caulfield12]

Then how did Wieters make your list? Adjust the goalposts again. I really don't understand what you chronic complainers get out of constantly complaining,. Baseball is a game. Games are supposed to be fun.

 

Were the Orioles not in the playoffs two years ago?

 

As for fun, that's why Iowa bb and fb is fun...lower expectations, easier to be pleasantly surprised. Somehow I kinda doubt Ventura will last as long in one job as Ferentz and Stoops, though.

[Dick Allen]

Were the Orioles not in the playoffs two years ago?

 

As for fun, that's why Iowa bb and fb is fun...lower expectations, easier to be pleasantly surprised. Somehow I kinda doubt Ventura will last as long in one job as Ferentz and Stoops, though.

Stoops doesn't coach at Iowa.

[GreenSox]

In short, I disagree with the lack of depth comment. Even after these deals there's enough Jordan Guerrero's, Chris Beck's, and Adam Engel's to entice other teams with visions of potential longterm steals without letting go of guys like Anderson, Fulmer, or Adams. I have been rather impressed in Hahn's ability to sell what appears to be high on a lot of these guys to land a bigger fish. A great way to manufacture roster value.

I certainly agree that the execution of trades for the vets is way better under Hahn....2nd tier prospects are used (although I think some of those guys are pretty good; and I'd take a look at some rosters before devaluing a player just because of where he was drafted).

However, the evaluation of the veteran himself is sorely lacking. How many more Dunns, Laroches, Melkys and Samardzijas are they going to add to this team? Some I guess is bad luck; some is bad fit (why add a fly ball pitcher like Samarzija, and if you do, why put the worst OF defense imaginable out there by signing Melky?).

Edited December 31, 2015 by GreenSox

[kapzk]

Cespedes's last month of the season and playoff performance last year -- truly scary

 

Didn't he have a hurt shoulder during that time which required cortisone shots?

[blackmooncreeping]

Sources: Industry belief is that the White Sox would prefer to sign an outfielder to a 4- or 5-year deal. May lessen chances for Upton.

 

Chris Cotillo

Them and every other potential suitor in the league. I don't think that really hurts their chances of landing one of them all that much, just typical posturing.