Cespedes Re-signs with the Mets

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

Sure they hit homers...but not with swing and miss low obp sluggers, fawned over hereon.

Sox had players across the board who who could hit.

They also played impeccable defense and dumped a slugger at a steep discount to shore up his and other positions.

There was that bullpen.....

[ChiSox59]

Sure they hit homers...but not with swing and miss low obp sluggers, fawned over hereon.

Sox had players across the board who who could hit.

They also played impeccable defense and dumped a slugger at a steep discount to shore up his and other positions.

 

Can we just ban this clown? Please.

[Quin]

Sure they hit homers...but not with swing and miss low obp sluggers, fawned over hereon.

Sox had players across the board who who could hit.

They also played impeccable defense and dumped a slugger at a steep discount to shore up his and other positions.

 

They were 24th in OBP that season at .322.

Pods had the highest average at .290, Konerko was the only other was above .280. Counter point was none of the starters were beneath .250

And it wasn't a steep discount - Pods was two years removed from finishing runner up as ROY and swiped 70 bags the previous year.

[GreenSox]

I also don't get how Justin Upton can't be considered pretty consistent.

His OBP has trended downward. Not precipitously.

He Ks a lot.

 

Cespedes has been trending upward. But he is more of the slugger type; but he sure can mash it. No QO

[Lillian]

You know what's funny. I was just remembering what Hawk said, last off season, when we acquired Melky. He was touting the projected outfield of Melky, Eaton and Avi as being one of the best defensive outfields in baseball. He opined; "The first rule in baseball is; catch the ball". He went on; "This outfield defense will catch the ball, and will be one of the best".

 

Was he encouraged to promote that nonsense, or was he just clueless?

[GGajewski18]

His OBP has trended downward. Not precipitously.

He Ks a lot.

 

Cespedes has been trending upward. But he is more of the slugger type; but he sure can mash it. No QO

 

Do you look up statistics? In 8 full seasons, Upton's lowest OBP was this year at 336. In 4 years, Cespedes has had an OBP above 336 once, and that was his rookie year.

 

And Upton actually had a higher OBP than Cespedes last year despite having a "down year" and Cespedes "trending upward"

Edited December 20, 2015 by SoxPride18

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

You know what's funny. I was just remembering what Hawk said, last off season, when we acquired Melky. He was touting the projected outfield of Melky, Eaton and Avi as being one of the best defensive outfields in baseball. He opined; "The first rule in baseball is; catch the ball". He went on; "This outfield defense will catch the ball, and will be one of the best".

 

Was he encouraged to promote that nonsense, or was he just clueless?

I vote "clueless"

[Kyyle23]

Sure they hit homers...but not with swing and miss low obp sluggers, fawned over hereon.

Sox had players across the board who who could hit.

They also played impeccable defense and dumped a slugger at a steep discount to shore up his and other positions.

 

So wait, it's ok to dump a homegrown flawed player to shore up other positions? Strange.

 

You know what they should have done that year is platooned Lee and Borchard. They were flawed but they were ours!

[GreenSox]

Do you look up statistics? In 8 full seasons, Upton's lowest OBP was this year at 336. In 4 years, Cespedes has had an OBP above 336 once, and that was his rookie year.

 

And Upton actually had a higher OBP than Cespedes last year despite having a "down year" and Cespedes "trending upward"

 

Of course I do. My statistics were correct. Upton's OBP has dropped each of the last 4 seasons.

 

I never claimed Cespedes has a good OBP. He's a slugger. His mashing has trended upward. But last year could very well have been a career blip.

 

[GGajewski18]

Of course I do. My statistics were correct. Upton's OBP has dropped each of the last 4 seasons.

 

I never claimed Cespedes has a good OBP. He's a slugger. His mashing has trended upward. But last year could very well have been a career blip.

 

Upton has hit 25+ HRs 6 of the last 7 seasons, while getting on base at a higher clip than Cespedes, AND actually has experience playing RF.

[Lillian]

It's interesting that Upton was a better hitter in that big San Diego Park, than he was on the road. He had more homers and more doubles. You would have thought that his average and doubles might have been better, because of the big alleys, as indeed they were.

but, he was simply better in all phases of his offense, away from PetCo Park. More homers, better average and OBP. Everything. Go figure!!

 

I wonder how he'll like hitting in the Cell. I still worry about that cold Spring weather, but he would probably love it there, the

rest of the season.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Lillian

[bmags]

I honestly don't care about home road splits. In our best example, with coors, we always hear about the coors effect. While there is number inflation, has anyone been overvalued by coors? Holliday had a great career from coors, Tulo was great, cuddyer, fowler... It's thrown around like this huge insight, but it seems pretty meaningless.

[Saufley]

It's interesting that Upton was a better hitter in that big San Diego Park, than he was on the road. He had more homers and more doubles. You would have thought that his average and doubles might have been better, because of the big alleys, as indeed they were.

but, he was simply better in all phases of his offense, away from PetCo Park. More homers, better average and OBP. Everything. Go figure!!

 

I wonder how he'll like hitting in the Cell. I still worry about that cold Spring weather, but he would probably love it there, the

rest of the season.

 

I hope that will be one of my worries next spring, if that is a worry at all. But, I hope to see Upton's name on the roster soon.

 

[Lip Man 1]

When talking about the 2005 White Sox one has to understand they had something that no other Sox team in the last 15 years had offensively...balance.

 

They could best you with a three run bomb, with a bloop into short right or a bunt down the third base line.

 

The Sox if I remember correctly were in the top four or five in the league in the following categories:

 

Home Runs

Sacrifice Fly's

Sacrifice Bunts

Stolen Bases

Infield Hits

 

They didn't have to wait for the three run home run to win a game, they had other ways to do it. It wasn't a "home run or nothing..." offense.

 

Regarding Hawk's comments about the outfield defense, he is so biased towards the organization and the players that when he says that stuff, he truly believes it. It takes a lot to change his mind. But remember his famous (infamous) quote from just a few months later, "our defense SUCKS!"

 

Mark

Edited December 20, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[GreenSox]

I honestly don't care about home road splits. In our best example, with coors, we always hear about the coors effect. While there is number inflation, has anyone been overvalued by coors? Holliday had a great career from coors, Tulo was great, cuddyer, fowler... It's thrown around like this huge insight, but it seems pretty meaningless.

OBPs should carry over.

 

[OmarComing25]

OBPs should carry over.

Walk rates sure, but OBP is also tied to batting average.

[Dick Allen]

When talking about the 2005 White Sox one has to understand they had something that no other Sox team in the last 15 years had offensively...balance.

 

They could best you with a three run bomb, with a bloop into short right or a bunt down the third base line.

 

The Sox if I remember correctly were in the top four or five in the league in the following categories:

 

Home Runs

Sacrifice Fly's

Sacrifice Bunts

Stolen Bases

Infield Hits

 

They didn't have to wait for the three run home run to win a game, they had other ways to do it. It wasn't a "home run or nothing..." offense.

 

Regarding Hawk's comments about the outfield defense, he is so biased towards the organization and the players that when he says that stuff, he truly believes it. It takes a lot to change his mind. But remember his famous (infamous) quote from just a few months later, "our defense SUCKS!"

 

Mark

 

Re the 2005 White Sox offense. It is all fine and dandy what you said, the fact is they scored the exact same percentage of their overall runs via the home run as the supposed softball team line up of 2004.

 

Since switching parks, if his team doesn't hit homers, they are screwed.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Dick Allen

[OmarComing25]

Re the 2005 White Sox offense. It is all fine and dandy what you said, the fact is they scored the exact same percentage of their overall runs via the home run as the supposed softball team line up of 2004.

 

Since switching parks, if his team doesn't hit homers, they are screwed.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-play...yths-to-ignore/

 

HR-reliant offenses also tend to do better in the playoffs.

[Lip Man 1]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-play...yths-to-ignore/

 

HR-reliant offenses also tend to do better in the playoffs.

 

That's assuming they get to the playoffs of course as many Sox teams have showed in the new century, "home run or nothing" often gets you exactly that come October...nothing...because with all the droughts during the regular season you lose to many games to qualify for the post season.

 

Not saying at all that home run are bad, U.S. Cellular is a hitters park but it is significant to me that the best success this franchise has had in decades came in a year when they had great balance and could beat you offensively in a number of ways.

 

Mark

[Balta1701]

I honestly don't care about home road splits. In our best example, with coors, we always hear about the coors effect. While there is number inflation, has anyone been overvalued by coors? Holliday had a great career from coors, Tulo was great, cuddyer, fowler... It's thrown around like this huge insight, but it seems pretty meaningless.

Ok I can't resist, I have to look at your list. The 3 years before he played in Colorado, Cuddyer had a .805 OPS. In Colorado, .886 over 3 years. Last year, .699 and now he's retired. Were his numbers last year because he wasn't in Coors any more or did he finally get old?

 

Fowler's career OPS in Colorado was 30 points higher than what he put up this year in Wrigley and that's counting his rookie time. Is he just past his peak now that he's 29+ or is that still part of the Coors effect?

 

The Blue Jays looked great with Tulo in their lineup but he was terrible in Toronto. In August he put up a .665 OPS, in September .640 before he hit the Disabled list. Maybe you can make a case that's all injury and he'll pick it up this year, but Tulo was anything but "Great" in Toronto.

 

Holliday is the one guy who almost put up Colorado numbers his first year in STL, but he also fell off dramatically his first year after leaving Coors before STL picked him up. You can make a strong case to me that he needed a full year to adapt to "not being a Coors field hitter" before his numbers recovered.

 

The names on your list should worry anyone who acquires one of those OFs. Every one of them you can make some exception, "Age, Injury, etc.", but every name on your list performed worse outside of Coors than in Coors, especially in their first year elsewhere.

[Kyyle23]

So four players prove your point

[Balta1701]

So four players prove your point

I didn't give the list of 4 players, I just actually looked at the 4 that were given as supposed evidence that there isn't a big Coors effect. I even noted why some of them could easily be "exceptions". I literally don't know how I can give a more fair summary of the numbers for those 4 players.

[Dick Allen]

Is the argument that there really is no Coors effect? If it is, that is beyond silly. It isn't just that balls carry farther, there is a lot more room for balls to drop.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Dick Allen

[WBWSF]

Every White Sox fan is hoping that the team signs another big hitter for the 2016 season. There has also been alot of talk about hopefully moving La Roche and Danks this off season. If the White Sox move Danks or Johnson this off season I can't help but wonder if the White Sox are going to sign Mark Buehrle. To the best of my knowledge he hasn't officially retired or been signed by another team. I would much rather see him in the White Sox rotation than Danks. If the team trades either Danks or Johnson for something that improves the team I would like to think Buehrle would fit in here quite well.

Edited December 20, 2015 by WBWSF

[bmags]

Is the argument that there really is no Coors effect? If it is, that is beyond silly. It isn't just that balls carry farther, there is a lot more room for balls to drop.

No, it's not the point. The point is it's not like these players are in the KBO where we have no idea how they will perform outside of coors. You don't need to go just by their away splits just because of Coors. But the constant "is he good or is he coors?" debate that has continued for 15 years now is a) boring and b) not a huge difference. Not that .050 OPS is minuscule, but it's not like teams would think they are getting a .950 ops player and getting a .750 ops player.

 

Also - Holliday has virtually the same ops from 2008 and 2009 and I'm not sure if Balta knows but Cuddyer played in Minnesota prior.

 

Have we not had enough talk about how they'll hit better in us cellular field to see how marginal these gains are?