An alternative to the White Sox market conundrum

[NorthSideSox72]

Mr. raBBit wrote a piece for Future Sox, suggesting that maybe there are more than two potential paths to success for the White Sox. Not all-in for this coming year, and not a complete tear-down, but something in the middle that addresses the team's constraints and leads to success. It's really good stuff.

 

Here it is.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Jose Abreu]

The article suggests trading Quintana, but it's hard to keep wasting Sale/Abreu in their primes. I'd either go all in or all out, meaning if I trade Quintana for a non-Earth shattering return, I'd blow it up and trade Sale/Abreu too.

[NorthSideSox72]

The article suggests trading Quintana, but it's hard to keep wasting Sale/Abreu in their primes. I'd either go all in or all out, meaning if I trade Quintana for a non-Earth shattering return, I'd blow it up and trade Sale/Abreu too.

That's been the general thought process - that those are the only two paths. Brian was pointing out that there could be a third, that might work better.

 

Part of his point is, going all-out isn't really an option for the White Sox in their particular situation market-wise.

 

[Dick Allen]

The problem I have with waiting another year is you still are going to need these pieces, and when in baseball history has the prices actually gone down a year later?

 

I am not suggesting paying the price for Frazier, but free agents, it isn't like a guy similar to Upton will be available at half the cost next season.

 

If you don't have the guys to trade for upgrades or you don't have or want to spend the money for upgrades, then look to start trading guys like Q and Sale and Abreu because if your reluctance continues, you will have the same issues in the future.

 

And if you think winning 85 games in 2016 is going to make the attendance jump 500k in 2017, think again. Just remember 2012.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

The word "rebuild" has always been a touchy one on the South Side for leadership and fans alike. Not only does Jerry Reinsdorf whole-heartedly believe in building a winner annually, the front office is also subject to the fickle nature of the White Sox fan base. While executives Jeff Luhnow and Theo Epstein have popularized an embrace of being utterly terrible to build a winner through draft pool allotments, the White Sox lack the fan base that would wait around for such a grueling process that results in a non-guaranteed chance at winning.

 

 

First, this whole fan shaming thing is getting old. Houston had lower tv ratings than the White Sox, a zero share in some games, but they stuck to their plan and saw it through and even succeeded despite seeming mistakes like Mark Appel instead of Kris Bryant and the whole Brady Aiken fiasco, which might have ended up working out in their favor.

 

Second, comparing David Robertson to Kimbrel or Chapman is a bit of a stretch...just like Quintana is overshadowed on the national level because he's not a radar gun destroying flamethrower, Robertson similarly relies on a pitch that is deadly effective when it's on but one that also tends to degrade his other pitches and the overall effectivenesss of his repertoire over the course of a season. Assuming a Miller or Kimbrel return of prospects is a fantasy and more importantly a concrete admission of failure by Hahn.

 

Third, pretty much any plan is still mitigated by the fact that Ventura remains huge question mark in terms of his overall effectiveness as a manager and motivator. At best, the jury's still out. Meanwhile, Maddon and the young Cubs can seemingly recruit anyone they want to the other side of town. Not a pretty comp right now.

 

Fourth, almost every value priced free agent in the last two to three years has led to no payoffs like we always try to sell ourselves on in the offseason as the backup or fallback plan. Zach Putnam or Soto weren't even cashed in on...Petricka, etc. Hahn has signed maybe 12-13 guys and none of them have been effectively leveraged. One of his most controversial moves remains the decision to hold onto Shark last July.

 

Finally, JR is JR. Until they prove they're willing to take advantage of the fact 45% of MLB teams are limited this international cycle in spending and "go for it," they will always be playing catch-up with the more risk taking, bigger budget teams. The only real evidence is going over for Rodon and Micker Adolfo, so it's hard to see much substantive progress at the moment or on the horizon and we're seemingly stuck in the middle...outside a Top Ten protected draft pick and still closer to the basement of the AL Central than competing for a wild card spot.

Edited December 16, 2015 by caulfield12

[Y2Jimmy0]

The word "rebuild" has always been a touchy one on the South Side for leadership and fans alike. Not only does Jerry Reinsdorf whole-heartedly believe in building a winner annually, the front office is also subject to the fickle nature of the White Sox fan base. While executives Jeff Luhnow and Theo Epstein have popularized an embrace of being utterly terrible to build a winner through draft pool allotments, the White Sox lack the fan base that would wait around for such a grueling process that results in a non-guaranteed chance at winning.

 

 

First, this whole fan shaming thing is getting old. Houston had lower tv ratings than the White Sox, a zero share in some games, but they stuck to their plan and saw it through and even succeeded despite seeming mistakes like Mark Appel instead of Kris Bryant and the whole Brady Aiken fiasco, which might have ended up working out in their favor.

 

Second, comparing David Robertson to Kimbrel or Chapman is a bit of a stretch...just like Quintana is overshadowed on the national level because he's not a radar gun destroying flamethrower, Robertson similarly relies on a pitch that is deadly effective when it's on but one that also tends to degrade his other pitches and the overall effectivenesss of his repertoire over the course of a season. Assuming a Miller or Kimbrel return of prospects is a fantasy and more importantly a concrete admission of failure by Hahn.

 

Third, pretty much any plan is still mitigated by the fact that Ventura remains huge question mark in terms of his overall effectiveness as a manager and motivator. At best, the jury's still out. Meanwhile, Maddon and the young Cubs can seemingly recruit anyone they want to the other side of town. Not a pretty comp right now.

 

Fourth, almost every value priced free agent in the last two to three years has led to no payoffs like we always try to sell ourselves on in the offseason as the backup or fallback plan. Zach Putnam or Soto weren't even cashed in on...Petricka, etc. Hahn has signed maybe 12-13 guys and none of them have been effectively leveraged. One of his most controversial moves remains the decision to hold onto Shark last July.

 

Finally, JR is JR. Until they prove they're willing to take advantage of the fact 45% of MLB teams are limited this international cycle in spending and "go for it," they will always be playing catch-up with the more risk taking, bigger budget teams. The only real evidence is going over for Rodon and Micker Adolfo, so it's hard to see much substantive progress at the moment or on the horizon and we're seemingly stuck in the middle...outside a Top Ten protected draft pick and still closer to the basement of the AL Central than competing for a wild card spot.

 

The fans are fickle, excuse-makers though. That's not an opinion though. It's a fact.

 

[caulfield12]

The fans are fickle, excuse-makers though. That's not an opinion though. It's a fact.

 

How is this level of team performance acceptable anywhere other than Wrigley, St. Louis and Fenway?

 

Did Mets' fans support their team in a much newer stadium before this season? Not so much.

 

Milwaukee is about the only other market where the fans support the team regardless of on-field performance. Of course, they also have a nicer facility from a fan standpoint.

 

Did Twins fans react any differently in 2014 than White Sox fans in 2012, once again, in a much newer stadium? Not really.

Edited December 16, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Better yet, where is there a successful professional sports franchise that blames their fans so much...more than themselves?

 

Name one.

 

The White Sox less than a decade ago had the tenth most valuable franchise in baseball.

 

Where are they now? Something like 17th-19th? Now why would that be?

Edited December 16, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Better yet, where is there a successful professional sports franchise that blames their fans so much...more than themselves?

 

Name one.

 

The White Sox less than a decade ago had the tenth most valuable franchise in baseball.

 

Where are they now? Something like 17th-19th? Now why would that be?

When do the White Sox blame their fans?

 

Why must you make so much up, and if you hate the franchise so much, why in the world do you keep posting on a White Sox message board?

[bmags]

I am glad article was written.

 

I keep thinking about Quintana. He's a fantastic player.

 

In my head, I keep trying to prove out whether this team will be a playoff team faster with or without Quintana.

 

I'm leaning without. I have no confidence that we can build out our offense through FA, and through trades will compromise building up a deep rotation. He is the only piece that could bring back more as the sum of the parts.

Edited December 16, 2015 by bmags

[caulfield12]

When do the White Sox blame their fans?

 

Why must you make so much up, and if you hate the franchise so much, why in the world do you keep posting on a White Sox message board?

 

 

You don't remember KW's can't spend $1 when you have fifty cents quote apparently?

 

Where were you?

 

I hate the way the franchise is being mismanaged and has become nearly irrelevant. Apparently you are in the dwindling minority that feels things are just great and no changes need to be made. Might as well go hang out with Chris Rongey in a luxury suite and sing kumbaya.

[caulfield12]

I am glad article was written.

 

I keep thinking about Quintana. He's a fantastic player.

 

In my head, I keep trying to prove out whether this team will be a playoff team faster with or without Quintana.

 

I'm leaning without. I have no confidence that we can build out our offense through FA, and through trades will compromise building up a deep rotation. He is the only piece that could bring back more as the sum of the parts.

 

 

Then simply find a Quintana admirer who loves him as much as LaRussa/Duncan and Shelby Miller...

[OmarComing25]

You don't remember KW's can't spend $1 when you have fifty cents quote apparently?

 

Where were you?

 

I hate the way the franchise is being mismanaged and has become nearly irrelevant. Apparently you are in the dwindling minority that feels things are just great and no changes need to be made. Might as well go hang out with Chris Rongey in a luxury suite and sing kumbaya.

So not endlessly b****ing and moaning means you just believe everything is rainbows and daisies?

[Dick Allen]

You don't remember KW's can't spend $1 when you have fifty cents quote apparently?

 

Where were you?

 

I hate the way the franchise is being mismanaged and has become nearly irrelevant. Apparently you are in the dwindling minority that feels things are just great and no changes need to be made. Might as well go hang out with Chris Rongey in a luxury suite and sing kumbaya.

That's blaming the fans? He hasn't said that in years.

 

The team won 76 games last year. So many people act like they lose 120 games every year and complain about it, and then wonder why they can't be more like teams that do lose 100 games a year.

 

Just think, their 76 win season got them that high draft pick you wanted them to have by tanking. So what are you moaning about? They are trying to be like the Royals and be horrible for 30 years.

[LDF]

The word "rebuild" has always been a touchy one on the South Side for leadership and fans alike. Not only does Jerry Reinsdorf whole-heartedly believe in building a winner annually, the front office is also subject to the fickle nature of the White Sox fan base. While executives Jeff Luhnow and Theo Epstein have popularized an embrace of being utterly terrible to build a winner through draft pool allotments, the White Sox lack the fan base that would wait around for such a grueling process that results in a non-guaranteed chance at winning.

 

 

First, this whole fan shaming thing is getting old. Houston had lower tv ratings than the White Sox, a zero share in some games, but they stuck to their plan and saw it through and even succeeded despite seeming mistakes like Mark Appel instead of Kris Bryant and the whole Brady Aiken fiasco, which might have ended up working out in their favor.

 

Second, comparing David Robertson to Kimbrel or Chapman is a bit of a stretch...just like Quintana is overshadowed on the national level because he's not a radar gun destroying flamethrower, Robertson similarly relies on a pitch that is deadly effective when it's on but one that also tends to degrade his other pitches and the overall effectivenesss of his repertoire over the course of a season. Assuming a Miller or Kimbrel return of prospects is a fantasy and more importantly a concrete admission of failure by Hahn.

 

Third, pretty much any plan is still mitigated by the fact that Ventura remains huge question mark in terms of his overall effectiveness as a manager and motivator. At best, the jury's still out. Meanwhile, Maddon and the young Cubs can seemingly recruit anyone they want to the other side of town. Not a pretty comp right now.

 

Fourth, almost every value priced free agent in the last two to three years has led to no payoffs like we always try to sell ourselves on in the offseason as the backup or fallback plan. Zach Putnam or Soto weren't even cashed in on...Petricka, etc. Hahn has signed maybe 12-13 guys and none of them have been effectively leveraged. One of his most controversial moves remains the decision to hold onto Shark last July.

 

Finally, JR is JR. Until they prove they're willing to take advantage of the fact 45% of MLB teams are limited this international cycle in spending and "go for it," they will always be playing catch-up with the more risk taking, bigger budget teams. The only real evidence is going over for Rodon and Micker Adolfo, so it's hard to see much substantive progress at the moment or on the horizon and we're seemingly stuck in the middle...outside a Top Ten protected draft pick and still closer to the basement of the AL Central than competing for a wild card spot.

 

for me, this is well written and it spelled out a lot, in many ways i agree.

 

i will not go any further into what you wrote, my feelings and expressions have been made known already, many times.

[caulfield12]

That's blaming the fans? He hasn't said that in years.

 

The team won 76 games last year. So many people act like they lose 120 games every year and complain about it, and then wonder why they can't be more like teams that do lose 100 games a year.

 

Just think, their 76 win season got them that high draft pick you wanted them to have by tanking. So what are you moaning about? They are trying to be like the Royals and be horrible for 30 years.

 

Yeah, sure Rich Hahn's plan after all the offseason additions was to have another protected draft pick...brilliant!!!

 

They need to figure out a way to win, somehow....spend or develop, spend or develop...just come up with something that actually appears to be a logical plan instead of this half assed approach.

[caulfield12]

So not endlessly b****ing and moaning means you just believe everything is rainbows and daisies?

 

Please name all the teams who haven't been to the playoffs for seven years without fickle fanbases...?

 

 

Stringer Bell could do a better job imo. If Upton didn't sign, they just could send Omar and his shotgun to close the deal, along with Brother Mouzone.

 

At least that would be more effective.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Good stuff Rabbit. I agree with everything sans maybe the going after a guy like Upton. Upton is young/good enough to justify losing the comp pick, IMO.

 

Trading Q still leaves you with Sale-Rodon-Fulmer-EJ in the rotation for 2017. Come 2017 you also have Danks and LaRoache of the books, so even if one of Montas(who may be a closer), Danish, Guerrero, Adams, or even Beck aren't ready to step in, you have the money to go after a pitcher on a short term deal. Or like the article suggests, grab a pitcher to fill the hole for now, then flip him when one of those guys are ready.

[LDF]

Yeah, sure Rich Hahn's plan after all the offseason additions was to have another protected draft pick...brilliant!!!

 

They need to figure out a way to win, somehow....spend or develop, spend or develop...just come up with something that actually appears to be a logical plan instead of this half assed approach.

 

ok i need to step in, you were right until the protected draft ....

 

i am for protecting this yr draft and i would love the sox to get more comp picks, the minor league system and its ratings, to me is over estimated or really wishful dreaming.

 

they need to go out there and make the right smart pickup and that may not always be to sign fa's.

 

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, sure Rich Hahn's plan after all the offseason additions was to have another protected draft pick...brilliant!!!

 

They need to figure out a way to win, somehow....spend or develop, spend or develop...just come up with something that actually appears to be a logical plan instead of this half assed approach.

 

That is what you want. Bad baseball and high draft picks. You get that, and you still aren't happy because that isn't what they were going for but what they did achieve. They do have more talent on the team now than they had 3 years ago, and it will continue to trend upward. I do agree they either have to spend money or trade for prospects, but all of your other complaints are just made up. The fan shaming doesn't happen. Hasn't for years. It isn't getting old. What is getting old is you using every complaint you can think of not caring about accuracy to appeal to the doom and gloomers. You really should post at WSI. Your moaning would make you a hero. They whine about everything there, from the stripes on the pants being changed, to patches on sleeves, to parking lot attendants not smiling at them, to ushers hitting on other ushers.

[LDF]

That is what you want. Bad baseball and high draft picks. You get that, and you still aren't happy because that isn't what they were going for but what they did achieve. They do have more talent on the team now than they had 3 years ago, and it will continue to trend upward. I do agree they either have to spend money or trade for prospects, but all of your other complaints are just made up. The fan shaming doesn't happen. Hasn't for years. It isn't getting old. What is getting old is you using every complaint you can think of not caring about accuracy to appeal to the doom and gloomers. You really should post at WSI. Your moaning would make you a hero. They whine about everything there, from the stripes on the pants being changed, to patches on sleeves, to parking lot attendants not smiling at them, to ushers hitting on other ushers.

 

didn't JR in an interview last yr said that the club couldn't spend anymore, b/c the fans attending the game has improve??? that they couldn't do anymore until more fans comes out??

[Dick Allen]

didn't JR in an interview last yr said that the club couldn't spend anymore, b/c the fans attending the game has improve??? that they couldn't do anymore until more fans comes out??

No he said he didn't blame the fans for not coming. That they had to provide a product worth watching.

[LDF]

No he said he didn't blame the fans for not coming. That they had to provide a product worth watching.

 

really???

 

i thought it was something else he said.

 

oh well.

[caulfield12]

That is what you want. Bad baseball and high draft picks. You get that, and you still aren't happy because that isn't what they were going for but what they did achieve. They do have more talent on the team now than they had 3 years ago, and it will continue to trend upward. I do agree they either have to spend money or trade for prospects, but all of your other complaints are just made up. The fan shaming doesn't happen. Hasn't for years. It isn't getting old. What is getting old is you using every complaint you can think of not caring about accuracy to appeal to the doom and gloomers. You really should post at WSI. Your moaning would make you a hero. They whine about everything there, from the stripes on the pants being changed, to patches on sleeves, to parking lot attendants not smiling at them, to ushers hitting on other ushers.

 

Nobody has ever blamed the fans at all. Sure.

 

All we hear about is 2012.

 

Once again, what franchises that haven't made the playoffs for seven years running have perfectly contented fanbases?

 

 

[LDF]

No he said he didn't blame the fans for not coming. That they had to provide a product worth watching.

 

really, i tried to look it up on google and can't find anything.

 

again, i question this, does anyone have a old link....

 

if this was indeed what he said, last season on this site, this has been mention several times and no correction.