Sox Acquire All-Star 3B Todd Frazier from Reds in 3 team deal

[lasttriptotulsa]

If the White Sox want a FA outfielder "not being able to afford it" isn't going to stop them. Period.

 

Reinsdorf has the money.

 

It's not just Reinsdorf's money. It's the money of the entire ownership group in which Reinsdorf is a part of. He has to run the team with the interests of the other owners in mind too. He can't just take money out of their pockets to overspend for his pet project.

[Panerista]

Extend that - what if they want to sign Cespedes and Upton. No salary cap, Reinsdorf has the money, should be easy, right?

If they want to pay it, go right ahead and don't worry about overpaying. It's not that big of a deal.

[greg775]

Yes they are fact. Trayce never hit well in the minors and wont in the majors. He's Brian Anderson with a much worse bat. Micah cannot field, never really has and has looked horrible. He also has health issues. Montas could be a nice setup guy though.

 

You have two sub-level MLB guys maybe and a pen guy.

 

LOL. Maybe I missed it. Has everybody been this down on Trayce?

I'll leave this thread for a while and see what gets written before I get in trouble. I never thought I'd be portrayed as hating Frazier deal. I WANTED Frazier and got him. Now I want Lexi and infield will be amazing with defensive replacements/fill ins around in Saladino and/or Sanchez. An actual good bench.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm not sure if I'm just reading this wrong, but Frazier doesn't come through as "well above average" defensively in UZR. Normalized to playing 150 games, UZR/150, he put up a 7.5. Kris Bryant, who people keep wanting to move off of 3b, put up a 5.4. The "Well above average" people, like Beltre, Longoria, etc., all put up >10.

He was like 5th in defensive runs saved combined over the past few years. In what world is that not above average. And anyone wanting to move Bryant off of 3B is delusional.

[southsider2k5]

Stop what? I'll make my posts less antagonistic on this if you think they are, but Sox aren't going to be abe to sign a Gordon or Upton or Cespedes. They don't have the $$ for that. If I'm wrong there, I'll be the biggest Hahn fan forever. Right now, I want Lexi and want Avi to turn into Little Miggy. What's wrong with that take? I'm just $aying a fan is dreaming if they think we can sign one of those 3.

 

 

Rock, you make your statements like they are 100 percent fact. I feel I've been reasonable in my assessment of what I see as an overpay. I already said I want Frazier and Sox need Frazier.

 

I could counter your first sentence with Trayce can field and he looked like a guy who could hit; Micah has always been considered a great prospect though his glove was thoroughly disappointing in his one stint with the Sox and Montas throws 100 and is supposed to be a certain big leaguer.

 

If you bet the house against it, I know it will be done.

[GGajewski18]

That's the route I would take. One thing no one has brought up is the difficulty the Sox may have in signing Upton.

 

As a few of us have mentioned, signing a back loaded deal for a FA OF is probably the only way the Sox can bring a high priced player on. As we've seen recently, the bigger names are looking for opt-outs after year 3 or 4, and I'm sure at 26 years old Upton is looking for that. I would be. So not paying a ton in Year 1 is going to create a problem for the Sox.

 

Maybe not the 1st year, but in years 2-5 they definitely can because of the money coming off the books in Danks, LaRoche, Navarro, and Avila.

[Dick Allen]

If they want to pay it, go right ahead and don't worry about overpaying. It's not that big of a deal.

Ask MC Hammer how that approach works out.

[Chisoxfn]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=24,d

 

Last 4 years Frazier's UZR/150 is 4th among all 3B, behind Arenado, Donaldson, and Machado. By DRS he's 6th. Whether you want to call that well above average is semantics, but regardless it's a pretty big upgrade from what we had (except for Saladino's superhuman DRS numbers at 3B this year).

Yeah...somehow 4th amongst all 3B would be pretty damn good to me and I don't know what to call that other than above average.

[CanOfCorn]

Greg...if we are going to talk about the three prospects shipped out and what they COULD be, then we should talk about who has been on this team and what they HAVE BEEN. Alexei is on the downside of his career and at least to my eyes, is declining rapidly. And with an infield of Abreu, Lawrie and Frazier, there is little need to bring him back. Saladino as your SS/#9 hitter is going to be just fine. OF defense is lacking, but if Melky and Eaton go back to career norms, the OF should be fine. Avi is still young and relatively cheap. May only cost between $2-$3 mil in arbitration.

 

I hope the Sox can sign a free agent OF, but I'd be happy with Shuck and possibly an inexpensive late inning defensive OF.

 

[Panerista]

It's not just Reinsdorf's money. It's the money of the entire ownership group in which Reinsdorf is a part of. He has to run the team with the interests of the other owners in mind too. He can't just take money out of their pockets to overspend for his pet project.

He's the majority owner. He can do what he wants on that front.

 

And it's not like one outfielder is what is going to blow up this deal. The White Sox have the money. Don't worry about overspending.

 

1) There's no cap

2) The 2017 team sheds a lot of weight

 

I don't want to go for it every year. I'm a rebuilder guy, but if you're going to go for, go for it.

[shysocks]

If they want to pay it, go right ahead and don't worry about overpaying. It's not that big of a deal.

LOL sure thing man. Let's sign EVERY free agent, what could possibly go wrong?

 

Can't tell if you're trolling or you don't understand how money works.

[Chisoxfn]

Well yeah, of course if you filter to "last 4 years", but that's because you've now limited it to "guys who have been consistent over 4 years".

You will find an issue with anything. Sox could have acquired Mike Trout for this package and you'd have complained. They are moving up in the WAR world, your go to stat for the past few years, getting a guy who has consistently been good and you still gripe.

 

By the way, switch that UZ stat to the past 2 years and he ranks 6th. Above Mr. Longoria too (by the way).

[Panerista]

LOL sure thing man. Let's sign EVERY free agent, what could possibly go wrong?

 

Can't tell if you're trolling or you don't understand how money works.

 

You're completely missing the point. The point is, don't worry about "overpaying" one guy. It's one guy.

 

Go for it or don't.

[Knackattack]

LOL sure thing man. Let's sign EVERY free agent, what could possibly go wrong?

 

Can't tell if you're trolling or you don't understand how money works.

I think he is just getting at the fact that handing out a big money deal this offseason doesn't handcuff the team for years to come or force us to move some one first... Danks/LaRoche coming off the books next year is a huge boost

[Panerista]

I think he is just getting at the fact that handing out a big money deal this offseason doesn't handcuff the team for years to come or force us to move some one first... Danks/LaRoche coming off the books next year is a huge boost

Thank you. Don't worry about it. It's one guy. Don't worry about overpaying one guy.

[beautox]

I'm sad to see Trayce go. Having said that this is a good move. Sox need to sign a 3WAR OFer, If they do that they're sitting at about 36WAR as projected from steamer. That puts us in the thick of it for the wild card and the central, with a fair amount of upside in projections regarding Sale, Quintana and Eaton, with some additional upside in Lawrie, Johnson, Danks & Saladino.

Edited December 16, 2015 by beautox

[shysocks]

You're completely missing the point. The point is, don't worry about "overpaying" one guy. It's one guy.

 

Go for it or don't.

I'm not missing the point at all. I extended the analogy to overpaying for two guys, and you said "Fine, do it."

 

I want to spend on an outfielder too, but the point is that teams have a finite amount of money to spend despite the salary cap of $Infinity. Do you disagree, or is that not the point?

[Knackattack]

I'm sad to see Trayce go. Having said that this is a good move. Sox need to sign a 3WAR OFer, If they do that they're sitting at about 36WAR as projected from steamer. That puts us in the thick of it for the wild card and the central, with a fair amount of upside in projections regarding Sale, Quintana and Eaton, with some additional upside in Lawrie & Saladino.

Also some added excitement and being on a winning team might bring a little improvement from Mr. Abreu who quietly had a bit of a sophomore slump

 

[Chisoxfn]

No, he was 7th if you switch to the total UZR which is the counting stat. IF you do UZR/150 he was 48th with Bryant as 50th. But of course, in that case you've made the opposite error - including guys like Saladino who played there a month or less. Basically, if you count his defense as "Well above average" you wind up describing Bryant with the same word based on those numbers and that confuses me.

UZR/150, has Frazier 6th (over 2 year span) or 7th out of qualified 3rd baseman. UZR/150 also adjusts for scale anyway so it isn't a counting stat. Not to mention on defensive statistics, you want a longer scale sample size. Either way, anyway you slice his past few years defense and you get positive performance. Unless of course you are Balta the grouch. No one on this planet thinks Frazier is a below average defensive player (except you of course).

[knightni]

He's the majority owner. He can do what he wants on that front.

 

And it's not like one outfielder is what is going to blow up this deal. The White Sox have the money. Don't worry about overspending.

 

1) There's no cap

2) The 2017 team sheds a lot of weight

 

I don't want to go for it every year. I'm a rebuilder guy, but if you're going to go for, go for it.

Actually, he's just chairman.

 

I don't believe that he's the majority owner.

[bmags]

I hold the opinion that the sox are not committing one way to another, and it's slowing down their timeline.

 

That said, as someone who thinks we should trade away quintana and believes we'll be closer to a playoff race in 17, this trade is fine. It doesn't really prevent us from anything.

 

I believe Montas could be a fantastic bullpen piece, and I thought trayce could start.

 

But its telling that last years horrible team still was reluctant to commit to those players as starters. One, that is a failure of patience to actually let this develop. but two, it's because they are, at a ceiling, players you could live with.

 

The main thing we lose by trading away montas, trayce and micah is the ability to trade them again. I preferred we held our players until we knew we were one piece away. But I'm shocked this package got Frazier. I would be pretty pissed if we had todd frazier, and we did not get back one player that I could be like "this is likely to be a starter on a good team."

 

On the flip side, I hate people diminishing Trayce just cause he left. He has high upside. He worked hard, got to the big leagues and performed. He's just very risky.

 

But, I had not penciled in any of these players long term. I wanted to let them play to roll the dice on succeeding at development, but I viewed all of them as replacement players.

[Knackattack]

I'm not missing the point at all. I extended the analogy to overpaying for two guys, and you said "Fine, do it."

 

I want to spend on an outfielder too, but the point is that teams have a finite amount of money to spend despite the salary cap of $Infinity. Do you disagree, or is that not the point?

The Dodgers had a 300M payroll. If a team wants to spend wildly they are free to do so. All he said was that if the owners wanted to go for a high cost, winning team, they could do it.

 

You're looking way too far into this lol.. If you're going to field a winning team, you gotta spend the money on good players.

[Panerista]

I'm not missing the point at all. I extended the analogy to overpaying for two guys, and you said "Fine, do it."

 

I want to spend on an outfielder too, but the point is that teams have a finite amount of money to spend despite the salary cap of $Infinity. Do you disagree, or is that not the point?

Sure, but we don't know what the White Sox internal cap is, right? The idea that the White Sox can't afford a player is silly. We don't know what Reinsdorf is or isn't willing to spend if Hahn wants to spend it. With a salary cap, I get being worried about "well we already have this and this guy signed, so we can't afford another", but in baseball, Jerry's internal cap could be $110 million or $130 million. We don't know. Regardless, no one here has reason to suggest that the White Sox can't afford a guy if they want him.

[Dick Allen]

Actually, he's just chairman.

 

I don't believe that he's the majority owner.

I don't think he's the majority owner, but he is correct about being able to do what he wants.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Actually, he's just chairman.

 

I don't believe that he's the majority owner.

 

I've never really seen anything official on what percent he owns but it isn't very high. I remember reading an article awhile back in which other partners claimed he owned ~15% but he claims it is higher.