Sox Acquire All-Star 3B Todd Frazier from Reds in 3 team deal

[Baron]

Hahn says they would have to get creative to increase payrolll but hints at future flexibility.

 

Danks and LaRoche come off the books. So that helps.

[GGajewski18]

Danks and LaRoche come off the books. So that helps.

 

 

Which means a fairly large backloaded deal for a FA. With Danks and Adam off the books next year, they should have cash to spend.

 

Exactly. Much like what the Giants with Samardzija (paying him 8 million next season)

[OmarComing25]

I'm not sure if I'm just reading this wrong, but Frazier doesn't come through as "well above average" defensively in UZR. Normalized to playing 150 games, UZR/150, he put up a 7.5. Kris Bryant, who people keep wanting to move off of 3b, put up a 5.4. The "Well above average" people, like Beltre, Longoria, etc., all put up >10.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=24,d

 

Last 4 years Frazier's UZR/150 is 4th among all 3B, behind Arenado, Donaldson, and Machado. By DRS he's 6th. Whether you want to call that well above average is semantics, but regardless it's a pretty big upgrade from what we had (except for Saladino's superhuman DRS numbers at 3B this year).

Edited December 16, 2015 by OmarComing25

[Dick Allen]

It has been mentioned, especially if a FA OF is added, the Sox will have significantly upgraded their offense without using Anderson or Fulmer, or Adams in trades. More importantly, they didn't use Quintana.

[justBLAZE]

It has been mentioned, especially if a FA OF is added, the Sox will have significantly upgraded their offense without using Anderson or Fulmer, or Adams in trades. More importantly, they didn't use Quintana.

 

I'm not a big prospect guy, but also Danish and Michalczewski still in the system.

[Whisox05]

Frazier attributes second half drop-off last season to fatigue, playing for bad Reds team

https://twitter.com/scotgregor/status/677210667250663424

[Balta1701]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=24,d

 

Last 4 years Frazier's UZR/150 is 4th among all 3B, behind Arenado, Donaldson, and Machado. By DRS he's 6th. Whether he want to call that well above average is semantics, but regardless it's a pretty big upgrade from what we had (except for Saladino's superhuman DRS numbers at 3B this year).

Well yeah, of course if you filter to "last 4 years", but that's because you've now limited it to "guys who have been consistent over 4 years".

[GGajewski18]

I'm not a big prospect guy, but also Danish and Michalczewski still in the system.

 

Same. And Guerrero, Hawkins, May, Engel. All guys we are excited about that have potential.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I was actually just watching clips of Adam Dunn in 2004 when he was with the Reds. Man was he thin....what the hell happened?

 

He aged 7 years. I think if you looked at the vast majority of men, athlete or not, they are not in as good of shape at 31 compared to when they were 24.

[OmarComing25]

Well yeah, of course if you filter to "last 4 years", but that's because you've now limited it to "guys who have been consistent over 4 years".

And why shouldn't we use the larger sample size? Even if you just go by 2015 he was 7th. Bryant was 8th so it's not like UZR dislikes his defense.

[OmarComing25]

Same. And Guerrero, Hawkins, May, Engel. All guys we are excited about that have potential.

Don't forget about my boy Eddy Alvarez.

[chitownsportsfan]

He aged 7 years. I think if you looked at the vast majority of men, athlete or not, they are not in as good of shape at 31 compared to when they were 24.

 

Some rumors that Dunn enjoy his brewskies. Hard to get slim when you're ingesting that many liquid calories and not on the Michael Phelps training plan.

[Dick Allen]

Well yeah, of course if you filter to "last 4 years", but that's because you've now limited it to "guys who have been consistent over 4 years".

Yeah why use a 4 year stretch, when you can use a smaller sample size to say someone isn't any good. Especially with advanced defensive stats.

 

Are there dark clouds everyday in your world?

[Balta1701]

And why shouldn't we use the larger sample size? Even if you just go by 2015 he was 7th. Bryant was 8th so it's not like UZR dislikes his defense.

No, he was 7th if you switch to the total UZR which is the counting stat. IF you do UZR/150 he was 48th with Bryant as 50th. But of course, in that case you've made the opposite error - including guys like Saladino who played there a month or less. Basically, if you count his defense as "Well above average" you wind up describing Bryant with the same word based on those numbers and that confuses me.

[Baron]

He aged 7 years. I think if you looked at the vast majority of men, athlete or not, they are not in as good of shape at 31 compared to when they were 24.

 

It's not just about that but his bat. Man that went to hell quick.

[Lillian]

Replacing Garcia and the lineup is going to look a whole lot different with the infielders we added and the new catching combination. Really if you replace him with Upton the real stinker is you still have LaRoche.

 

You know that I am as unhappy with La Roche, as anyone here. However, if they add a decent bat to the outfield, La Roche's impact would be greatly minimized.

He could bat in the bottom 3RD of the order, and at least he'd add a LH bat. If he hits in that spot, and only faces RH pitching, he could be serviceable with rather pedestrian numbers. I'd take a .240 to .250 average and .330 to .340 OBP, with 14 to 15 homers. That's not an unrealistic expectation.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Lillian

[chitownsportsfan]

You know that I am as unhappy with La Roche, as anyone here. However, if they add a decent bat to the outfield, La Roche's impact would be greatly minimized.

He could bat in the bottom 3RD of the order, and at least he'd add a LH bat. If he hits in that spot, and only faces RH pitching, he could be serviceable with rather pedestrian numbers. I'd take .240 to .250 average and .330 to .340 OBP, with 14 to 15 homers. That's not an unrealistic expectation.

 

I don't trust RV to use La Roche that way, even if the roster shakes out as you said. Really wish the Sox had moved on from RV. Whatever, it's time for RV to s*** or get off the pot. He'll sink or swim this year.

[BigEdWalsh]

Todd Frazier on #WhiteSox trade:I've got to be truthful to you, I'm pretty excited. Just saw the lineup on TV. It put a smile on my face.'

This put a smile on MY face. I like this trade a lot and I was a big fan of Trayce, always have been. But, I was a pretty big fan of Jordan Danks too. Trayce showed a lot of promise last September but he probably will just be a 4th outfielder, albeit maybe a pretty good one. For that, we already have Schuck. We get a proven all star third-baseman for three prospects. Micah, I've soured on and he's going to be 25 in a couple of days. Kinda past being touted as a prospect. Trayce will also be 25 to start the season. Even if Montas turns out to be a great bullpen guy (and that's still an "if"), this deal was well worth it. Now, for Upton or Cespedes, though my biggest concern is SS.

[Knackattack]

Adrian Beltre is one of the best defensive 3rd basemen in recent history and by far the best in the Majors. Longoria was a revelation and an incredibly elite player, offensively and defensively at 3rd. Either of these guys in their prime would have cost Rodon, Fulmer, Anderson and the rest of the farm. We acquired an above average offensive player at a position where that is a scarcity and the fact is that he is an above average defender there and we got him for a bunch of potential but zero certainty in the 3 players we lost. 4 months of Bryant UZR isn't enough to justify comparing Frazier to him since we all know the defensive metrics (that you used as well, Balta) take a few years of accumulated data to be held as reliable, and when that fact is brought up your counterarguement was that it has to be guys that are consitent for 4 years...

 

I respect your views and your posts, but wouldn't you want a guy that has consistently posted UZR stats of the 5-9 range for the past 4 years? Sanchez put up a 4.4 and this whole board was claiming he was an elite defensive 2b...

Edited December 16, 2015 by Knackattack

[Balta1701]

Adrian Beltre is one of the best defensive 3rd basemen in recent history and by far the best in the Majors. Longoria was a revelation and an incredibly elite player, offensively and defensively at 3rd. Either of these guys in their prime would have cost Rodon, Fulmer, Anderson and the rest of the farm. We acquired an above average offensive player at a position where that is a scarcity and the fact is that he is an above average defender there and we got him for a bunch of potential but zero certainty in the 3 players we lost. 4 months of Bryant UZR isn't enough to justify comparing Frazier to him since we all know the defensive metrics (that you used as well, Balta) take a few years of accumulated data to be held as reliable, and when that fact is brought up your counterarguement was that it has to be guys that are consitent for 4 years...

 

I respect your views and your posts, but wouldn't you want a guy that has consistently posted UZR stats of the 5-9 range for the past 4 years? Sanchez put up a 4.4 and this whole board was claiming he was an elite defensive 2b...

The "defense" point isn't a "wouldn't want him", argument, it's just "is he going to be as good as the language people are using would suggest". Some of that is also me wondering whether I understand the defensive stats enough, because Bryant being right next to Frazier seems to make no sense to me if Bryant is a guy who should be moved away from 3b and Frazier is "Well above average".

 

The "wouldn't want him" part comes from me continuing to think this team is no where near as good as they want to believe they are.

[OmarComing25]

No, he was 7th if you switch to the total UZR which is the counting stat. IF you do UZR/150 he was 48th with Bryant as 50th. But of course, in that case you've made the opposite error - including guys like Saladino who played there a month or less. Basically, if you count his defense as "Well above average" you wind up describing Bryant with the same word based on those numbers and that confuses me.

No I just used qualified 3B, where he ranks 7th by UZR/150. Including guys like Saladino doesn't make a lot of sense because they didn't play enough to see if their defensive play was sustainable. Saladino, despite having only a third of the total innings at 3rd last season than the top guys, was tied for 4th among all 3B in the MLB by DRS with 12, which is a counting stat. He was ahead of Donaldson and 2 runs behind Machado. That's pretty incredible, and why he was worth 1.3 rWAR in just 68 games despite very little offense. However, I doubt that would have continued, otherwise he would go down as the best defensive 3B of all-time.

Edited December 16, 2015 by OmarComing25

[greg775]

Haven't read the thread yet but I will shortly.

Well, Hahn is thinking like me and others. With Frazier, the infield changes so much if we re-sign Lexi. It'll be Frazier, Lexi, Lawrie and Abreu. ON PAPER, excellent. Very sad to lose Trayce, Micah and Montas. Once again we overpaid. I realize I got what I wanted (if we re-sign Lexi; ss will be a major weakness if Saladino is there). I did get what I wanted but wow, the overpay!

 

Final comment: I know the Sox are trying now; I realize the lineup is probably worth seeing in person, buying season tickets now (if we re-sign Lexi on the cheap), but it's now up to Frazier to not be the latest NL player to SUCK in a Sox jersey. And if Frazier does suck beyond belief, even though the trade seems reasonable, Hahn should pay with his job. The FO has to get this stuff right and Sox just gave up three TOP prospects for this guy. He MUST not pull a Dunn or pull a LaRoche. He must excel or Hahn must go.

 

Please sign Lexi now for one year and an option.

[Quin]

I feel like all the people bemoaning Trayce being traded didn't know who Trayce was or barely knew who he was before August. When Future Sox writers aren't trashing this deal, you can try to feel good about it.

[ChiSox59]

I really like the trade. I think it is a good move and I am not going to lose any sleep over what we gave up.

 

However, I think this makes improving the OF defense tough, which I think needs to be a priority. I had more or less penciled in a (close to) everyday OF alignment of Eaton-Thompson-Avi / FA pick up. Without Thompson, it goes back to Melky-Eaton-Avi/FA. I think this team really needs two OF....one of Upton/Gordon/Cespedes, and a lesser guy who preferably bats LH if you go with Upton or Cespedes. Someone like Parra or Span who can platoon with Avi, which gets him out of the OF against RHP, and also moves Melky to DH most days which I think is necessary.

 

vs. RHP

 

Gordon/Upton/Cespedes (in order of my preference)

Eaton

Parra/Span

DH: Melky

 

vs. LHP

 

Gordon/Upton/Cespedes

Eaton

Avi

DH: Melky

 

LaRoche becomes late inning defensive replacement and gets the occasional start against RHP. This is probably unlikely, but I think this is what makes the White Sox a real contender.

 

 

[Knackattack]

I feel like all the people bemoaning Trayce being traded didn't know who Trayce was or barely knew who he was before August. When Future Sox writers aren't trashing this deal, you can try to feel good about it.

I was high on Trayce but the likelihood of him being played in the right positions by Ventura and the league taking time to adjust to him is much higher than all of his tools clicking at the same time just because he got to the bigs.