Tim Baffoe Column

[LDF]

It was never going to be a Sox town.

 

and in your logic i will agree and it is obvious that has been the case for what seem as forever. buy in my perspective, if the sox had continue to to win, build a solid minor league system, and getting the right fa's, this city like any town likes a winner.

[LDF]

Unfortunately this is reality. But I agree with the post previously stating that this year is the year to spend the money on an impact FA. Next years FA market is horrible. So I think the Sox should look at it as a two year impact move. It may hurt this year but with the $ coming off the books next year with Danks and Laroche it softens the blow. IMO the impact move needs to be this year when the talent is available. There is no doubt any of the three of Upton, Cespedes, or Gordon makes us a better team for atleast the next two seasons. More so than any of the other potential FA in 2017.

 

that is exactly my point, build, get all the main pieces, use next yr to gell, fix and get used to each other, danks and laroche comes off the books, the is 28 mil coming off the books and another yr of development time for the prospects. also shows the fans that the sox are not rolling over and dying, but they will fight. so 2017 the sox will come out smoking.

[LDF]

Yeah, I gave little thought to that comment. KW has always been saying these things since forever. The only time he says anything more decisive is when he says we have nothing planned or no money available, which inevitably means we're about to make a trade or signing.

 

better yet, why even bother to come out and hold a press conference?????

[southsider2k5]

better yet, why even bother to come out and hold a press conference?????

 

He didn't.

[Lip Man 1]

Which is funny, because across town, we have the exact same executive structure, yet no one is telling Theo to stop talking, even when he is saying the exact same thing as Kenny... such as not having a plan for the winter.

 

The media in this town is embarrassing.

 

The simple fact is that everyone and I mean EVERYONE knows who is running the Cubs. That's why Theo makes the money he does, that's why he speaks the vast majority of the time for that club and let's not also forget, when he took over he made it crystal clear what the plan was going to be to everyone who would listen...in essence, "we're going to get young talent no matter what the cost and keep getting it with no quick fixes."

 

Most Sox fans and I suspect the media as well really don't know who is running the Sox, especially when you have Kenny saying anything and everything that comes into his head, including 'suddenly' talking a lot about 'three year plans / windows' in June when another season with "bold" moves went right down the toilet.

 

Sox fans by and large I think are tired of it, they are tired of the conflicting statements, tired of the meandering, tired of the nonsense about "rebuilding while contending." It hasn't worked.

 

I don't care if they reload or do a complete rebuild, pick a lane, pick a plan and stay with it come hell or high water.

 

Oh it would also help a lot if people like Kenny and Don Cooper stopped ripping the fan base. It happened four times just last season alone.

 

It's right out of Business 101, right or wrong you don't rip the people who pay the freight.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

The simple fact is that everyone and I mean EVERYONE knows who is running the Cubs. That's why Theo makes the money he does, that's why he speaks the vast majority of the time for that club and let's not also forget, when he took over he made it crystal clear what the plan was going to be to everyone who would listen...in essence, "we're going to get young talent no matter what the cost and keep getting it with no quick fixes."

 

Most Sox fans and I suspect the media as well really don't know who is running the Sox, especially when you have Kenny saying anything and everything that comes into his head, including 'suddenly' talking a lot about 'three year plans / windows' in June when another season with "bold" moves went right down the toilet.

 

Sox fans by and large I think are tired of it, they are tired of the conflicting statements, tired of the meandering, tired of the nonsense about "rebuilding while contending." It hasn't worked.

 

I don't care if they reload or do a complete rebuild, pick a lane, pick a plan and stay with it come hell or high water.

 

Oh it would also help a lot if people like Kenny and Don Cooper stopped ripping the fan base. It happened four times just last season alone.

 

It's right out of Business 101, right or wrong you don't rip the people who pay the freight.

 

Mark

 

Everyone who knows who runs the White Sox too. Anyone who claims different is being disingenuous.

 

[Lip Man 1]

Everyone who knows who runs the White Sox too. Anyone who claims different is being disingenuous.

 

And you're assuming that you know which is also disingenuous isn't it? LOL.

 

Again NO ONE knows with 100% clarity which is why you have so many Sox fans, a ton of them wondering who exactly is pulling the trigger on things. And despite what you think the media isn't totally stupid, there are a lot of sharp people in that profession. That fact that they are wondering as well speaks volumes.

 

Based on the track record of both of JR's franchises, it's clear historically and statistically his method of front office alignments isn't working.

 

I hope I'm still around when the Sox and Bulls are under new ownership just to see if a different organizational philosophy breeds more success.

 

Mark

Edited December 20, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Dick Allen]

And you're assuming that you know which is also disingenuous isn't it? LOL.

 

Again NO ONE knows with 100% clarity which is why you have so many Sox fans, a ton of them wondering who exactly is pulling the trigger on things. And despite what you think the media isn't totally stupid, there are a lot of sharp people in that profession. That fact that they are wondering as well speaks volumes.

 

Based on the track record of both of JR's franchises, it's clear historically and statistically his method of front office alignments isn't working.

 

I hope I'm still around when the Sox and Bulls are under new ownership just to see if a different organizational philosophy breeds more success.

 

Mark

Yeah only 7 championships

[Jerksticks]

And you're assuming that you know which is also disingenuous isn't it? LOL.

 

Again NO ONE knows with 100% clarity which is why you have so many Sox fans, a ton of them wondering who exactly is pulling the trigger on things. And despite what you think the media isn't totally stupid, there are a lot of sharp people in that profession. That fact that they are wondering as well speaks volumes.

 

Based on the track record of both of JR's franchises, it's clear historically and statistically his method of front office alignments isn't working.

 

I hope I'm still around when the Sox and Bulls are under new ownership just to see if a different organizational philosophy breeds more success.

 

Mark

I'm a fan and I know who runs the Sox. I'm not wondering anything. I know that JR owns the team. I also know that KW is the man. I also know that RH has been KW's right-hand man for a very long time. I also know that they are basically a two-headed snake. I also know that out of respect for RH, because of his tenure and great working relationship with KW, that the titles were upgraded so Rick could get some recognition. I also know that KW is RH's boss- he always has been. I also know that when he was offered the promotion to GM he also knew that he would still be working for KW. I also know that he accepted that position. I also know that most members of the sports media are POS and like to stir up controversy because it makes for news. It's one of the most awful things on this planet. Trying to trick every athlete (especially young ones) and every executive into saying things controversial. Loaded questions etc. i effing hate the media for that. Why not just report on the greatness of athletic men? Why try to cause rifts between brothers? Scumbags

[southsider2k5]

And you're assuming that you know which is also disingenuous isn't it? LOL.

 

Again NO ONE knows with 100% clarity which is why you have so many Sox fans, a ton of them wondering who exactly is pulling the trigger on things. And despite what you think the media isn't totally stupid, there are a lot of sharp people in that profession. That fact that they are wondering as well speaks volumes.

 

Based on the track record of both of JR's franchises, it's clear historically and statistically his method of front office alignments isn't working.

 

I hope I'm still around when the Sox and Bulls are under new ownership just to see if a different organizational philosophy breeds more success.

 

Mark

 

This is Jerry's franchise, and I can't believe you of all people don't know that. Everyone in the franchise is doing his bidding.

 

This whole faux "controversy" that the Score created to grab a few more listeners is a joke. But Sox fans respond to this, so on it goes.

[Thad Bosley]

Yeah only 7 championships

Lol - please don't conflate the accomplishments, or lack thereof, of the two organizations. As you well know, only one of those championships belongs to the Reinsdorf baseball team - in 35 years of trying. So with that very poor track record, it is a legitimate comment to make on a fan message board for the baseball team that it would be interesting to see the team under a new owner with a different organizational philosophy for running things. Could the results be worse? Sure, see Chicago Cubs - Tribune Company, 1982-2008. But chances are they couldn't be much worse than what's occurred under Reinsdorf. The lack of achievement under his leadership has left quite a bit to be desired, to say the least.

[Dick Allen]

Lol - please don't conflate the accomplishments, or lack thereof, of the two organizations. As you well know, only one of those championships belongs to the Reinsdorf baseball team - in 35 years of trying. So with that very poor track record, it is a legitimate comment to make on a fan message board for the baseball team that it would be interesting to see the team under a new owner with a different organizational philosophy for running things. Could the results be worse? Sure, see Chicago Cubs - Tribune Company, 1982-2008. But chances are they couldn't be much worse than what's occurred under Reinsdorf. The lack of achievement under his leadership has left quite a bit to be desired, to say the least.

I see you are back to copyi and pasting your JR narrative again.They could be a lot worse, and the post I responded to included the Bulls.

[59th street]

I'm a fan and I know who runs the Sox. I'm not wondering anything. I know that JR owns the team. I also know that KW is the man. I also know that RH has been KW's right-hand man for a very long time. I also know that they are basically a two-headed snake. I also know that out of respect for RH, because of his tenure and great working relationship with KW, that the titles were upgraded so Rick could get some recognition. I also know that KW is RH's boss- he always has been. I also know that when he was offered the promotion to GM he also knew that he would still be working for KW. I also know that he accepted that position. I also know that most members of the sports media are POS and like to stir up controversy because it makes for news. It's one of the most awful things on this planet. Trying to trick every athlete (especially young ones) and every executive into saying things controversial. Loaded questions etc. i effing hate the media for that. Why not just report on the greatness of athletic men? Why try to cause rifts between brothers? Scumbags

 

 

I don't post much but had to on this. Great response and summary Jerksticks. 100 percent correct and accurate.

 

You have perfectly outlined what so many of the "smart media" members claim to not understand.

 

I guess you must just be SMARTER. Very nicely done.

[caulfield12]

And the good will created by Jordan and Pippen almost twenty years ago now is helping to sell how many White Sox 2016 Holiday Season Ticket packs?

[LDF]

And you're assuming that you know which is also disingenuous isn't it? LOL.

 

Again NO ONE knows with 100% clarity which is why you have so many Sox fans, a ton of them wondering who exactly is pulling the trigger on things. And despite what you think the media isn't totally stupid, there are a lot of sharp people in that profession. That fact that they are wondering as well speaks volumes.

 

Based on the track record of both of JR's franchises, it's clear historically and statistically his method of front office alignments isn't working.

 

I hope I'm still around when the Sox and Bulls are under new ownership just to see if a different organizational philosophy breeds more success.

 

Mark

 

to a certain degree, i agree. we all know who runs, or owns the team / org, but he does let his right hand do so much and have a lot of freedom to make changes, as he should. but i think at a certain level of approval that is needed, then that will have to come from the owners. pretty much as the story of how the sox signed Jose Abreu ..... that final numbers in the contract was settle by the owners.

 

now with all this talk about who makes the decision, esp in fa's, unless it is a earth shattering kind of number, i believe that he may come down to kw, with rh doing all the leg work.

 

decision making of any kind, comes from the owners.

 

i wonder, does all org run like this??? how much are the owners are involve??

[LDF]

And the good will created by Jordan and Pippen almost twenty years ago now is helping to sell how many White Sox 2016 Holiday Season Ticket packs?

good point.

[Dick Allen]

And the good will created by Jordan and Pippen almost twenty years ago now is helping to sell how many White Sox 2016 Holiday Season Ticket packs?

Probably exactly the same number and it "helped" being sold back when it happened.

[BlackSox13]

I'm a fan and I know who runs the Sox. I'm not wondering anything. I know that JR owns the team. I also know that KW is the man. I also know that RH has been KW's right-hand man for a very long time. I also know that they are basically a two-headed snake. I also know that out of respect for RH, because of his tenure and great working relationship with KW, that the titles were upgraded so Rick could get some recognition. I also know that KW is RH's boss- he always has been. I also know that when he was offered the promotion to GM he also knew that he would still be working for KW. I also know that he accepted that position. I also know that most members of the sports media are POS and like to stir up controversy because it makes for news. It's one of the most awful things on this planet. Trying to trick every athlete (especially young ones) and every executive into saying things controversial. Loaded questions etc. i effing hate the media for that. Why not just report on the greatness of athletic men? Why try to cause rifts between brothers? Scumbags

Dude, you f***ing rock, man!

 

There was nothing controversial about KW's comments about Hahn's plan. KW was asked questions by the morons in the media and when KW answered them, the morons spun it and tried to turn it into something controversial like some pathetically written reality TV show. Why? Because there are dumb enough fans out there that suck up that kind of nonsense because to them, its interesting reading.

 

This is Jerry's franchise, and I can't believe you of all people don't know that. Everyone in the franchise is doing his bidding.

 

This whole faux "controversy" that the Score created to grab a few more listeners is a joke. But Sox fans respond to this, so on it goes.

Yep, totally agree. Surprise surprise, the 79 year old owner doesn't want to rebuild because he wants to keep trying to win another before his time is up. I wonder how many fans would tear it all down to rebuild if they owned the team at 79 years old.

 

JR, KW and Hahn cannot win with the hindsight backseat drivers that some fans are. The FO spent plenty last off season in an attempt to fill numerous holes and put a winner on the field. Things didn't work out, despite their efforts and are criticized for the failure as if they knew Samardzija, Avi, LaRoche etc would fail the team. If the Sox hadn't spent money last off season, the " JR is cheap " crowd would be standing outside the Cell with torches in hand and a guillotine calling for heads to roll. No matter what the Sox do, the pessimistic fans will find something to complain about.

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

Of course I know as do we all who owns the team, that's not the issue (although it is clear from both KW and RH's own mouth as well as the Showtime series from back in 2010 that JR is a very hands-on owner. NO MAJOR decisions aren't made without his approval) That's not the question though is it, who runs the day to day decisions, who makes the calls before submitting them to JR for his final yes or no is the question

 

I submit and the evidence just in print is clear based on their own comments from KW and RH that there is plenty of room for doubt by many fans.

 

I don't find that rooting for or against any individual or from how things have been done. Nor does that suggest I'm for a "go for it (yet again)" approach or a complete rebuild, I've already stated I don't care...yet again, pick a plan and stay with it is all I'm saying.

 

The Sox HAVE NOT been a very successful franchise over the past 35 years, the number of playoff appearances bear that out. That's not even open for discussion.

 

The question is why not given their resources and advantages over the other teams in the division.

 

Could a unwieldy front office be part of the reason? Maybe, hard to say without actually being in the room.

 

But that doesn't negate the legitimacy of the question does it friends and neighbors.

 

I'll be interested to hear what the "excuses" are come this June if the Sox stumble badly out of the gate again and perhaps Ventura is fired, and then we'll get an update on the "three year plan / window."

 

Mark

Edited December 21, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

Of course I know as do we all who owns the team, that's not the issue (although it is clear from both KW and RH's own mouth as well as the Showtime series from back in 2010 that JR is a very hands-on owner. NO MAJOR decisions aren't made without his approval) That's not the question though is it, who runs the day to day decisions, who makes the calls before submitting them to JR for his final yes or no is the question

 

I submit and the evidence just in print is clear based on their own comments from KW and RH that there is plenty of room for doubt by many fans.

 

I don't find that rooting for or against any individual or from how things have been done. Nor does that suggest I'm for a "go for it (yet again)" approach or a complete rebuild, I've already stated I don't care...yet again, pick a plan and stay with it is all I'm saying.

 

The Sox HAVE NOT been a very successful franchise over the past 35 years, the number of playoff appearances bear that out. That's not even open for discussion.

 

The question is why not given their resources and advantages over the other teams in the division.

 

Could a unwieldy front office be part of the reason? Maybe, hard to say without actually being in the room.

 

But that doesn't negate the legitimacy of the question does it friends and neighbors.

 

I'll be interested to hear what the "excuses" are come this June if the Sox stumble badly out of the gate again and perhaps Ventura is fired, and then we'll get an update on the "three year plan / window."

 

Mark

 

 

1) Injuries

2) Tough early schedule against AL Central, etc.

3) Took time for the coaching staff to gel together

4) The White Sox don't have enough quality depth to provide "surer" options than Saladino, Erik Johnson, Lawrie, Avi Garcia, etc., and like most teams we can't develop OR afford one of the best catchers in the game

5) Bad weather in April/May...offense can't get into a rhythm

6) Lack of fan support/fans waiting to see if the team's for real first before coming out

7) Lack of chemistry because of all the chances in the INF (Frazier/Saladino/Lawrie)

8) Should have cut bait with Danks and LaRoche but couldn't afford to due to payroll limitations

Edited December 21, 2015 by caulfield12

[Jerksticks]

Of course I know as do we all who owns the team, that's not the issue (although it is clear from both KW and RH's own mouth as well as the Showtime series from back in 2010 that JR is a very hands-on owner. NO MAJOR decisions aren't made without his approval) That's not the question though is it, who runs the day to day decisions, who makes the calls before submitting them to JR for his final yes or no is the question

 

I submit and the evidence just in print is clear based on their own comments from KW and RH that there is plenty of room for doubt by many fans.

 

I don't find that rooting for or against any individual or from how things have been done. Nor does that suggest I'm for a "go for it (yet again)" approach or a complete rebuild, I've already stated I don't care...yet again, pick a plan and stay with it is all I'm saying.

 

The Sox HAVE NOT been a very successful franchise over the past 35 years, the number of playoff appearances bear that out. That's not even open for discussion.

 

The question is why not given their resources and advantages over the other teams in the division.

 

Could a unwieldy front office be part of the reason? Maybe, hard to say without actually being in the room.

 

But that doesn't negate the legitimacy of the question does it friends and neighbors.

 

I'll be interested to hear what the "excuses" are come this June if the Sox stumble badly out of the gate again and perhaps Ventura is fired, and then we'll get an update on the "three year plan / window."

 

Mark

Excuses? I think we differ as fans. I don't need excuses if they don't win or make the playoffs. All i know and care about is that they try to win every year. I respect the hell out of that. Sure 2014 was admittedly a transition, but I love that we aren't doing some 5 year rebuild. The FO flipped cores in a year and we are set up to win every year moving forward. It's really hard to say they aren't trying and it's a super fun time to be a Sox fan. We don't deserve transparency as fans but I'm super happy to know that such a tight "family" of brothers runs the ship.

[caulfield12]

I'm not sure that we "flipped" cores.

 

We were able to add Abreu, Eaton, Robertson and Rodon on top of Sale and Quintana. Now you have Frazier and possibly Lawrie, although it's hard to say "core" when you only have control of a player for 2 years.

 

One of the expected or forecasted core members, Avisail, is unlikely to make it. Conor, Alexei and Flowers were cast away, along with DeAza, Viciedo and Beckham prior to that.

 

(The main positive this off-season is the F.O. essentially admitting the lack of quality and at least attempting to not go with the same approach year after year after year, whether in terms of coaching staff/s or personnel changes.)

 

I guess if you look at it from a three year perspective (the 2012 team in September as the starting point), you can make that argument, and add Tim Anderson, Fulmer and perhaps Adams to the list as well.

 

But it's still one impact player short, in all likelihood.

 

 

 

In the end, it just depends on your perspective as a fan. If the changes stopped right here, then some fans (such as yourself) will be more or less content and argue they did the best they could under the circumstances. Not unlike the arguments we were given for standing pat at the deadline last year and not making any moves to add, either. Those seem rather hollow in hindsight. Others are going to expect more. Neither side is inherently right or wrong.

[Thad Bosley]

I see you are back to copyi and pasting your JR narrative again.They could be a lot worse, and the post I responded to included the Bulls.

Just responding to your typical and rather lazy effort to deflect any and all criticism towards Sox management. I mean, talk about 'copy and paste'. If we had a dime for every time you've trotted out a superficial defense for this ownership group, we might just have enough money to buy the team ourselves.

[LDF]

I'm not sure that we "flipped" cores.

 

We were able to add Abreu, Eaton, Robertson and Rodon on top of Sale and Quintana. Now you have Frazier and possibly Lawrie, although it's hard to say "core" when you only have control of a player for 2 years.

 

One of the expected or forecasted core members, Avisail, is unlikely to make it. Conor, Alexei and Flowers were cast away, along with DeAza, Viciedo and Beckham prior to that.

 

(The main positive this off-season is the F.O. essentially admitting the lack of quality and at least attempting to not go with the same approach year after year after year, whether in terms of coaching staff/s or personnel changes.)

 

I guess if you look at it from a three year perspective (the 2012 team in September as the starting point), you can make that argument, and add Tim Anderson, Fulmer and perhaps Adams to the list as well.

 

But it's still one impact player short, in all likelihood.

 

 

 

In the end, it just depends on your perspective as a fan. If the changes stopped right here, then some fans (such as yourself) will be more or less content and argue they did the best they could under the circumstances. Not unlike the arguments we were given for standing pat at the deadline last year and not making any moves to add, either. Those seem rather hollow in hindsight. Others are going to expect more. Neither side is inherently right or wrong.

 

i will totally disagree with you. from my pov, if they stop, it is b/c the owners are really more interested in their money, coming in. that they will not go into their profit area, which i believe is a lot more than most people think of.

 

they the sox org, really need to get that bat and then maybe a lower tier sp. then see how the team plays. everyone knows 28 mil comes off the books next yr, and the yr after, melky 15 mil plus some of the other players will leave b/c of fa's. the money, the profits will right itself, i really hoping that the owners can see this. i am sure they can, i just hope they understand the fans frustration.

[LDF]

Of course I know as do we all who owns the team, that's not the issue (although it is clear from both KW and RH's own mouth as well as the Showtime series from back in 2010 that JR is a very hands-on owner. NO MAJOR decisions aren't made without his approval) That's not the question though is it, who runs the day to day decisions, who makes the calls before submitting them to JR for his final yes or no is the question

 

I submit and the evidence just in print is clear based on their own comments from KW and RH that there is plenty of room for doubt by many fans.

 

I don't find that rooting for or against any individual or from how things have been done. Nor does that suggest I'm for a "go for it (yet again)" approach or a complete rebuild, I've already stated I don't care...yet again, pick a plan and stay with it is all I'm saying.

 

The Sox HAVE NOT been a very successful franchise over the past 35 years, the number of playoff appearances bear that out. That's not even open for discussion.

The question is why not given their resources and advantages over the other teams in the division.

 

Could a unwieldy front office be part of the reason? Maybe, hard to say without actually being in the room.

 

But that doesn't negate the legitimacy of the question does it friends and neighbors.

 

this sounds like the beginning of mark anthony speech at caesar funeral, no offense intended.

 

I'll be interested to hear what the "excuses" are come this June if the Sox stumble badly out of the gate again and perhaps Ventura is fired, and then we'll get an update on the "three year plan / window."

 

Mark

 

the success or the failures fall directly on the owners, not b/c they have the money and that should dictate who makes the final decision. b/c they had the balls to think they can run a baseball org without knowing or having first hand knowledge of the game.... meaning the behind the scenes and dealings with other teams, trades and draft. now from the business side, they have made themselves millions and millions of dollars and new businesses, but that is not what i am talking about.

 

now the state of the team, since 2012, the org is the worst shape than ever and i will say they got extremely lucky with the WS. from a fan pov, thank you very much, however since then, garbage!!! the main question is why??? b/c the owners refuses to get that key smart baseball man who could run the company, the org, who knows what to do for a farm to be good and successful. oh yeah and to pony up on the money, which they have. i am not even talking about the draft and the poor results from that side.

 

the sox owners need to step back and let the baseball people run the show, and get a better man at the top, kw has proven that he can't do it.

 

now with ref to next yr, if they come out stumbling again, we as fan now can point the finger directly at the cause, it is the manager and again it comes back to, who hired the manager???