2016 Hall of Fame

[Rowand44]

The known PEDs users are just NOT getting in, which is as it should be. If you rewarded them, what message would you be sending kids?

Agreed. I love the message that some drugs are better than others and being a racist gets you rewarded. The baseball hall of fame should definitely be about sending a message!

[oldsox]

Agreed. I love the message that some drugs are better than others and being a racist gets you rewarded. The baseball hall of fame should definitely be about sending a message!

What? Who?

[Chicago White Sox]

What? Who?

I think he's referring to Ty Cobb. Regardless, being a scumbag off the field and cheating on the field are two completely different issues. IMO, outside of the most extreme cases, the Hall shouldn't concern themselves with character issues. Also, using steroids & HGH is a on a completely different level of cheating than using greenies. It's like comparing heroine to weed in terms of recreational drugs. And I'm not justifying the use of greenies either, but we can't go back in time and kick out everyone that ever used them (nor would we know). The HOF voters can try to right the ship now in terms of steroids when factual evidence is readily available.

 

It's interesting to me that most of the people who are in favor of letting known PED users like Bonds & Clemens in grew up in the Steriod Era. If there was ever a time for GreenSox to call people hero-worshippers, now would be the time. And I say this as someone who also grew up in the era. These guys did some amazing stuff and nothing will ever be able to take that away from us, but to glorify known cheaters by electing them into the Hall is 100% wrong. Getting into the Hall of Fame is a big deal for these guys and those that were caught cheating in a significant way don't deserve that satisfaction.

[ptatc]

Its cheating, regardless. And many of those guys were never caught with anything, just talked about. Bagwell and Piazza specifically

 

 

 

 

GMAB, the hall of fame is a popularity contest and it will never be right going forward, there will ALWAYS be cheaters somehow. People want to pick and choose what is ok to look past, and bottom line is none of it is ok to look past, but people have been looking past it forever,

 

The steroid era happened, everyone is under suspicion in that era. I dont even care anymore, Bonds was a HOFer before and after he bulked up.

Goes back to the same discussion of degrees of breaking the rules. Is speeding the same as murder? Does changing your body to improve performance the same as using something to improve your focus?

 

I would say with the sosa, Bonds, McGwire HR chase the steriod advancement did alot more than the greenies ever did. Everyone took greenies, everyone. In the late 80's and early 90's we had coffee pots in the locker room labeled leaded and unleaded. Most thought it was caffiene and non- caffiene. It was greenies and non-greenies.

 

You can equate the two if you want, I'm just not sure everyone does or will.

 

there is also the line of thinking that it was not cheating until there was a rule against it. Let players in the HOF before the rules were made. If they were caught after, they don't get in.

 

Bonds was a HOF prior to his PED use. However, he was caught cheating after the rules were in place.

 

I'm not sure there is a right or wrong but it's not a black and white " all get in or none get in" case.

[Middle Buffalo]

Agreed. I love the message that some drugs are better than others and being a racist gets you rewarded. The baseball hall of fame should definitely be about sending a message!

Barry "I don't sign for white people" Bonds?

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

Agreeing with Kyle and Bmags.

 

The Hall is dumb. There are probably roiders in the HoF. People used drugs to enhance peformance when it was greenies.

 

And you know what? Who's worse for the game - Barry Bonds or Ty Cobb? One used roids and went from a Hall of Famer to possibly the best ever and the other was a racist that beat up a crippled fan.

 

In fairness to Cobb, it should be noted, that fan had a condition which caused him to spit uncontrollably. Cobb didn't know this and when the guy spit on him because of his condition Cobb reacted as he did.

 

Mark

 

[Lip Man 1]

When it comes to PEDs, I draw the line at the Mitchell Report. Before that, MLB practically wanted players to take PEDs. I don't condone them, but it was going to happen without a real testing program and putting a stigma on taking them.

 

After the Mitchell Report, there should be Zero Tolerance...just short of a lifetime ban. The party should be over as much as possible.

 

So for Bonds and Clemens, yeah, I'd hold my nose and vote for them. Guys like Sosa and McGwire, I can use my common sense and say they wouldn't have Hall-like numbers without PEDs.

 

Obviously there are tougher calls since we don't know one way or the other (Piazza and Bagwell), but the Steroid Era existed, and they might as well put the best-of-the-best from that era in, and move on.

 

What will be interesting is what happens with David Ortiz? Remember the New York Times named him (and Sammy Sosa) as having failed his 2003 drug test which did not 'count' at the time for punishment by MLB.

 

Mark

 

[LittleHurt05]

Goes back to the same discussion of degrees of breaking the rules. Is speeding the same as murder? Does changing your body to improve performance the same as using something to improve your focus?

 

I would say with the sosa, Bonds, McGwire HR chase the steriod advancement did alot more than the greenies ever did. Everyone took greenies, everyone. In the late 80's and early 90's we had coffee pots in the locker room labeled leaded and unleaded. Most thought it was caffiene and non- caffiene. It was greenies and non-greenies.

 

You can equate the two if you want, I'm just not sure everyone does or will.

 

there is also the line of thinking that it was not cheating until there was a rule against it. Let players in the HOF before the rules were made. If they were caught after, they don't get in.

 

Bonds was a HOF prior to his PED use. However, he was caught cheating after the rules were in place.

 

I'm not sure there is a right or wrong but it's not a black and white " all get in or none get in" case.

 

I may be wrong, but I don't remember Barry Bonds ever being caught and suspended by MLB. He missed as many games to suspension as Piazza and Bagwell did.

[ptatc]

I may be wrong, but I don't remember Barry Bonds ever being caught and suspended by MLB. He missed as many games to suspension as Piazza and Bagwell did.

No, but through the Grand jury testimony he was proven to have taken them during the timeframe, I believe. If they can prove the others took them during that timeframe as well, they fall in the same category.

[oldsox]

Barry "I don't sign for white people" Bonds?

I had forgotten that snippet from Barry's past. Never understood it, because he married white chicks and certainly had a bunch of white friends along the way. Still, he said it.

 

One thing I've never understood, why don't more hitters try to emulate Bonds'

approach at the plate: choke up, stand still, don't walk around the plate after every pitch, bat speed, achieve a genuine understanding of the strike zone, etc. Man, I loved to watch him hit.

[Middle Buffalo]

I had forgotten that snippet from Barry's past. Never understood it, because he married white chicks and certainly had a bunch of white friends along the way. Still, he said it.

Some of my best friends...

 

Bonds was/is an ass. That's not why he shouldn't be included, though. If the standard is cheated or not, he absolutely cheated. That's pretty easy to deduce by looking at his stats pre- and post-1999. There's a hundred years of data that shows guys don't get better from HOF level in their mid 30s. So, he didn't get caught, but everyone knows.

 

I'm at the point where I really don't care anymore. And, I think that's ultimately how steroids ruined the game for me. I grew up a numbers freak. I used to love looking at the stats leaders and practically memorizing the backs of baseball cards. Now, I don't care because I don't know. And I won't - because the numbers aren't real.

 

And greenies does not equal steroids. Just look at the power numbers. Players didn't suddenly learn how to hit HRs in the 90s.

[caulfield12]

I think it has more to do with the fact a lot of white fans were in their 30s and 40s and wanted 10-20 things signed to sell for profit. Most players prefer to sign for kids and or women/mothers comparatively.

 

I sent him a couple of baseball cards in 1985 or 1986 and he autographed them ... Imo things really got crazy with autograph fees and shows and collectors the decade after that and greedy/pushy collectors were part of the problem.

 

They gave off the vibe of wanting to turn around and sell those things for a quick buck.

Edited January 2, 2016 by caulfield12

[3GamesToLove]

In fairness to Cobb, it should be noted, that fan had a condition which caused him to spit uncontrollably. Cobb didn't know this and when the guy spit on him because of his condition Cobb reacted as he did.

 

Mark

 

Where are you getting this from? Every source I'm finding is saying that he was physically disabled (had lost one hand and most of the other in a printing press accident) and had been heckling the Tigers.

[ptatc]

Some of my best friends...

 

Bonds was/is an ass. That's not why he shouldn't be included, though. If the standard is cheated or not, he absolutely cheated. That's pretty easy to deduce by looking at his stats pre- and post-1999. There's a hundred years of data that shows guys don't get better from HOF level in their mid 30s. So, he didn't get caught, but everyone knows.

 

I'm at the point where I really don't care anymore. And, I think that's ultimately how steroids ruined the game for me. I grew up a numbers freak. I used to love looking at the stats leaders and practically memorizing the backs of baseball cards. Now, I don't care because I don't know. And I won't - because the numbers aren't real.

 

And greenies does not equal steroids. Just look at the power numbers. Players didn't suddenly learn how to hit HRs in the 90s.

Describing him as an ass is bring very kind to the way he treated people at least in the visitors clubhouse.

[Dick Allen]

There are a lot of total assholes in the HOF. Bonds was IMO a HOF worthy player before it became obvious he was juicing. I am sure there are guys in that have juiced, and have cheated many different ways. With the PED guys I was always no to getting in, but on a couple they seem to have been declared guilty with the evidence being stats and/or body. Harold Baines had some big years in his late 30s. Was he juicing? Tim Raines used cocaine when he played, even the documentary said he occasional kept a vial in his uniform pocket. Is he more innocent than a Bagwell or Piazza? It looks like Piazza has a shot this year, but by numbers alone, he should have been first ballot. No failed test, just a report about zits on his back.

[flavum]

Raines is hanging in there, and they did take away votes from a lot of writers who don't cover baseball anymore, so maybe Rock has a shot.

 

138 public of the approximately 450 votes:

 

Griffey - 100.0

Piazza - 88.4

Bagwell - 82.6

Raines - 80.4

[ptatc]

There are a lot of total assholes in the HOF. Bonds was IMO a HOF worthy player before it became obvious he was juicing. I am sure there are guys in that have juiced, and have cheated many different ways. With the PED guys I was always no to getting in, but on a couple they seem to have been declared guilty with the evidence being stats and/or body. Harold Baines had some big years in his late 30s. Was he juicing? Tim Raines used cocaine when he played, even the documentary said he occasional kept a vial in his uniform pocket. Is he more innocent than a Bagwell or Piazza? It looks like Piazza has a shot this year, but by numbers alone, he should have been first ballot. No failed test, just a report about zits on his back.

Yes, because the cocaine did not improve his performance, it hindered it. If nothing else he admitted to not sliding properly and getting tagged out on stolen bases because he didn't want to break the vial of coke in his pocket. Doing the coke made him stupid not cheating the game.

 

Besides there is no definitive proof the Piazza and Bagwell did the PEDs. Now, being in the clubhouse with Piazza, I have no doubt he did but there is no proof ala Bonds.

Edited January 2, 2016 by ptatc

[Dick Allen]

Yes, because the cocaine did not improve his performance, it hindered it. If nothing else he admitted to not sliding properly and getting tagged out on stolen bases because he didn't want to break the vial of coke in his pocket.

Isn't cocaine consumption against the law? Tim Raines is supposedly about as nice of a guy as there is. If he was an ass, the coke would always be mentioned. I personally think his problem with getting in has been he played a long time as a good player.. I think his peak in Montreal gets watered down by it. Besides Rickey Henderson, you could make an argument he was the second most disruptive offensive player in baseball for 8 or 9 years. Truly awesome. He was a good player for the White Sox, but not anything like he was during his prime years. His performance IMO has earned him a plaque.

 

The PED thing comfuses me. If both pitchers and hitters were juicing, whose performance is enhanced more? Bonds vs. Clemens clean vs. juiced. I wonder what the difference would be, Ii have read where 70% was an estimate for how many players used PEDs. I would guess some were on a program like Bonds, and guys like Pablo Ozuna probably took supplements that contained something they shouldn't consume, and it didn't help them all that much.

 

The zits on the back though is pretty damning. In the locker room at my health club the other day I saw a muscle bound guy with a back loaded with zits. I assumed he was using steroids.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

Isn't cocaine consumption against the law? Tim Raines is supposedly about as nice of a guy as there is. If he was an ass, the coke would always be mentioned. I personally think his problem with getting in has been he played a long time as a good player.. I think his peak in Montreal gets watered down by it. Besides Rickey Henderson, you could make an argument he was the second most disruptive offensive player in baseball for 8 or 9 years. Truly awesome. He was a good player for the White Sox, but not anything like he was during his prime years. His performance IMO has earned him a plaque.

I agree. Even tough coke is against the law I personally don't feel something like that should effect his HOF. The only thing that should effect the HOF is how they treat the game (short of being a mass murderer). The ones who took the PEDs to change the game shouldn't be in. Recreational drugs generally will not improve their performance.

 

I agree that the being very good for a long time is what's holding him back. He was only in the top 5 for MVP once. While this isn't the only factor, he was never considered "one of the best players" in any given time frame. This makes it difficult to put him in the HOF.

[ptatc]

Isn't cocaine consumption against the law? Tim Raines is supposedly about as nice of a guy as there is. If he was an ass, the coke would always be mentioned. I personally think his problem with getting in has been he played a long time as a good player.. I think his peak in Montreal gets watered down by it. Besides Rickey Henderson, you could make an argument he was the second most disruptive offensive player in baseball for 8 or 9 years. Truly awesome. He was a good player for the White Sox, but not anything like he was during his prime years. His performance IMO has earned him a plaque.

 

The PED thing comfuses me. If both pitchers and hitters were juicing, whose performance is enhanced more? Bonds vs. Clemens clean vs. juiced. I wonder what the difference would be, Ii have read where 70% was an estimate for how many players used PEDs. I would guess some were on a program like Bonds, and guys like Pablo Ozuna probably took supplements that contained something they shouldn't consume, and it didn't help them all that much.

Just from anecdotal evidence, pitchers and hitters benefited in different ways. Hitter became stronger and hit the ball harder, thus in general could get more hits and more HR. Pitchers used it more for endurance and recovery. They could pitch more effectively longer into games as a starter or pitch more often more effectively as a reliever.

 

They both benefited and thus both should be penalized. The topic of penalty for the HOF is tough on players caught. If they get caught once but never again is that enough to keep them out of the HOF? These will be the tough questions in the future.

[flavum]

Murray Chass with one vote - Griffey.

 

Way to make it about yourself again, dickhead.

[caulfield12]

Who goes to the ceremony representing the Expos with Raines if he gets in?

 

It can't be Loria or John Henry...one would hope.

[Balta1701]

There are a lot of total assholes in the HOF. Bonds was IMO a HOF worthy player before it became obvious he was juicing. I am sure there are guys in that have juiced, and have cheated many different ways. With the PED guys I was always no to getting in, but on a couple they seem to have been declared guilty with the evidence being stats and/or body. Harold Baines had some big years in his late 30s. Was he juicing? Tim Raines used cocaine when he played, even the documentary said he occasional kept a vial in his uniform pocket. Is he more innocent than a Bagwell or Piazza? It looks like Piazza has a shot this year, but by numbers alone, he should have been first ballot. No failed test, just a report about zits on his back.

I always ask this one. Where is your evidence that Barry Bonds's first use of steroids was in 1998? Isn't that just as anecdotal as everything else?

 

Barry Bonds was clearly an athletic freak in the 1980s and 1990s, but there are plenty of steroids that don't make you explode into the muscle-bound freak he became. There's a supposed quote from him while having dinner with Ken Griffey Jr. in 1998 where he says he's going to "start using some hard-core stuff", why is "well he's clearly experienced with softer-core stuff" not an entirely plausible conclusion?

 

It's not like steroids weren't available to guys in high school and college in the 1980s and it's not like every steroid slows you down and takes away athletic ability in exchange for strength. If I put out a book saying he was juicing in the mid 80s, doesn't that have exactly as much credibility as saying he was HOF worthy before he was juicing?

[ptatc]

I always ask this one. Where is your evidence that Barry Bonds's first use of steroids was in 1998? Isn't that just as anecdotal as everything else?

 

Barry Bonds was clearly an athletic freak in the 1980s and 1990s, but there are plenty of steroids that don't make you explode into the muscle-bound freak he became. There's a supposed quote from him while having dinner with Ken Griffey Jr. in 1998 where he says he's going to "start using some hard-core stuff", why is "well he's clearly experienced with softer-core stuff" not an entirely plausible conclusion?

 

It's not like steroids weren't available to guys in high school and college in the 1980s and it's not like every steroid slows you down and takes away athletic ability in exchange for strength. If I put out a book saying he was juicing in the mid 80s, doesn't that have exactly as much credibility as saying he was HOF worthy before he was juicing?

It is entirely possible. However, for the most part people who are experienced with working with the human body and even people you just see them on a daily basis can see the difference. Even if you take it for "endurance" purposes ie, cycling , the body changes with enough dosage to make a performance enhancement. The "softer-core stuff" wouldn't have made much of a performance enhancement. There was a drastic change in his body in 1998.

[Dick Allen]

I always ask this one. Where is your evidence that Barry Bonds's first use of steroids was in 1998? Isn't that just as anecdotal as everything else?

 

Barry Bonds was clearly an athletic freak in the 1980s and 1990s, but there are plenty of steroids that don't make you explode into the muscle-bound freak he became. There's a supposed quote from him while having dinner with Ken Griffey Jr. in 1998 where he says he's going to "start using some hard-core stuff", why is "well he's clearly experienced with softer-core stuff" not an entirely plausible conclusion?

 

It's not like steroids weren't available to guys in high school and college in the 1980s and it's not like every steroid slows you down and takes away athletic ability in exchange for strength. If I put out a book saying he was juicing in the mid 80s, doesn't that have exactly as much credibility as saying he was HOF worthy before he was juicing?

 

Put the book out, see what happens. I have a title for you. Everything Sucks, by Balta. It would be a real thriller. I'm guessing you would need a legal fund. There are a ton of suspicions. Why wouldn't Carlton Fisk be questioned? Frankly, there really is no "proof" anyone didn't juice.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Dick Allen