2016 Hall of Fame

[Rowand44]

By excluding Bonds the person and player, you aren't excluding Bonds' achievements. You aren't pretending his doesn't exist. You are very clearly saying that Barry Bonds the player didn't merit inclusion into the HOF for whatever reason it was. Unless the HOF sets new standards, it has always been this way.

Wait...what?

[OmarComing25]

PEDs or not, there's little justification for Ortiz in the Hall and E Martinez not, not to mention not being able to garner even 50%.

Agreed, if Ortiz gets in and Edgar doesn't, I will be sharpening my pitchfork.

[Y2Jimmy0]

By excluding Bonds the person and player, you aren't excluding Bonds' achievements. You aren't pretending his doesn't exist. You are very clearly saying that Barry Bonds the player didn't merit inclusion into the HOF for whatever reason it was. Unless the HOF sets new standards, it has always been this way.

 

 

Bonds is a better guy than Ty Cobb was

[southsider2k5]

Bonds is a better guy than Ty Cobb was

 

Non Sequitur.

[southsider2k5]

Wait...what?

 

The ultimate Hall of Fame snub for cheating is Joe Jackson. That goes back about as far as you can go back.

[ptatc]

Yeah, it will be BS if Ortiz gets in, and the others don't. I do want to see consistency.

This is where it's gets tricky. If someone gets caught, admits it and does his suspension should he be looked at differently? Most of these question marks are due to the question marks of the testing and procedures during their time.

 

If the MLB had the testing in place it does today Bonds, McGwire, Sosa would not have been able to do what they did. Should they be penalized because the league and the union did not have the testing in place?

[lasttriptotulsa]

This is where it's gets tricky. If someone gets caught, admits it and does his suspension should he be looked at differently? Most of these question marks are due to the question marks of the testing and procedures during their time.

 

If the MLB had the testing in place it does today Bonds, McGwire, Sosa would not have been able to do what they did. Should they be penalized because the league and the union did not have the testing in place?

 

Whether testing was in place or not, steroids were banned for the vast majority of these guys' careers. They should not get a pass just because were not testing procedures in place especially when they would have some say in the procedures to due the collective bargaining agreement. Being innocent is not the same as not getting caught.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

The Hall of Fame is an irrelevant joke.

Is the Hall of Fame significantly flawed? Yes. Is the Hall of Fame an irrelevant joke? No.

[cabiness42]

My ballot would be:

Griffey

Bagwell

Piazza

Trammell

Schilling

Raines

Mussina

E Martinez

Hoffman

[bmags]

I don't want Hoffman in.

[ptatc]

Whether testing was in place or not, steroids were banned for the vast majority of these guys' careers. They should not get a pass just because were not testing procedures in place especially when they would have some say in the procedures to due the collective bargaining agreement. Being innocent is not the same as not getting caught.

This is my view as well but I can understand the opposite point of view.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

PEDs or not, there's little justification for Ortiz in the Hall and E Martinez not, not to mention not being able to garner even 50%.

 

 

Agreed, if Ortiz gets in and Edgar doesn't, I will be sharpening my pitchfork.

 

Meh. If PEDs were not an issue at all, Ortiz still has better case. He's probably going to finish 19th all time in HR and 22nd in RBI. He's finished in the top 5 of MVP voting 6 times and has 10 AS Games. Edgar Martinez had a better BA/OBP but he never finished in the elite of the league. Martinez is like Mike Mussina in that regards.

[Eminor3rd]

Meh. If PEDs were not an issue at all, Ortiz still has better case. He's probably going to finish 19th all time in HR and 22nd in RBI. He's finished in the top 5 of MVP voting 6 times and has 10 AS Games. Edgar Martinez had a better BA/OBP but he never finished in the elite of the league. Martinez is like Mike Mussina in that regards.

 

If the bolded is true of Edgar Martinez, it's also true of David Ortiz.

 

Their career accolades are very similar, actually. Bunch of Silver Sluggers and AS appearances, no MVPs. Ironically, David Ortiz is a seven-time recipient of the MLB's Edgar Martinez award, lol.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

If the bolded is true of Edgar Martinez, it's also true of David Ortiz.

 

Their career accolades are very similar, actually. Bunch of Silver Sluggers and AS appearances, no MVPs. Ironically, David Ortiz is a seven-time recipient of the MLB's Edgar Martinez award, lol.

 

I'd argue differently when one of the two finished 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th in MVP voting during a 5-year stretch.

 

You can argue about PED speculation if you'd like, and that's probably fair, but the original comment was if PEDs were a non-issue

[Eminor3rd]

I'd argue differently when one of the two finished 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th in MVP voting during a 5-year stretch.

 

You can argue about PED speculation if you'd like, and that's probably fair, but the original comment was if PEDs were a non-issue

 

Oh I wasn't talking about PEDs at all.

 

I think I'd agree that peak Ortiz was a bit better in relation to his peers than Martinez was, but Martinez's peers were so much better at the time that it feels like splitting hairs. I'm not willing to think of Edgar as a lesser player simply because he peaked in the same years as Frank Thomas.

[Chisoxfn]

There are a lot of total assholes in the HOF. Bonds was IMO a HOF worthy player before it became obvious he was juicing. I am sure there are guys in that have juiced, and have cheated many different ways. With the PED guys I was always no to getting in, but on a couple they seem to have been declared guilty with the evidence being stats and/or body. Harold Baines had some big years in his late 30s. Was he juicing? Tim Raines used cocaine when he played, even the documentary said he occasional kept a vial in his uniform pocket. Is he more innocent than a Bagwell or Piazza? It looks like Piazza has a shot this year, but by numbers alone, he should have been first ballot. No failed test, just a report about zits on his back.

Even if you looked at him juicing, so what, he was the best player on the planet on roids. I view the HOF as who was the best in that era / generation. Their is absolutely no question that Bonds should be in the hall. When it comes to more suspect players, I understand, but Bonds was the all time best hitter I've ever seen in my lifetime. Whether it was roid induced or not, best ever is worth something to me.

[ptatc]

Oh I wasn't talking about PEDs at all.

 

I think I'd agree that peak Ortiz was a bit better in relation to his peers than Martinez was, but Martinez's peers were so much better at the time that it feels like splitting hairs. I'm not willing to think of Edgar as a lesser player simply because he peaked in the same years as Frank Thomas.

Martinez is an interesting case with being primarily a DH. That's more the issue. If Thomas was the only one between him and the MVP, he should have finished higher in the voting. If a player sucks so bad defense that he was a DH even at a young age is he one of the best players of a time?

[OmarComing25]

I'd argue differently when one of the two finished 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th in MVP voting during a 5-year stretch.

 

You can argue about PED speculation if you'd like, and that's probably fair, but the original comment was if PEDs were a non-issue

 

 

Oh I wasn't talking about PEDs at all.

 

I think I'd agree that peak Ortiz was a bit better in relation to his peers than Martinez was, but Martinez's peers were so much better at the time that it feels like splitting hairs. I'm not willing to think of Edgar as a lesser player simply because he peaked in the same years as Frank Thomas.

Is it even true that Ortiz was better in relation to his peers? Whether you go by fWAR or bWAR Martinez has a substantial advantage by WAR, and when it comes to hitting the only thing Ortiz has on Edgar is HR (granted by a big margin), while Edgar is better at everything else, especially in OBP. Though Ortiz did lead the AL in wRC+ (157) during his offensive peak ('03-'07), during Edgar's offensive peak ('95-'00), he also led the AL in wRC+ (163) if you don't count McGwire's two and a half seasons in the AL during that time (and you shouldn't). If you go by full career instead of offensive peak Edgar looks better than Ortiz compared to his peers by wRC+.

 

Yes Ortiz has more top 5 MVP finishes, but that assumes the voting in those isn't flawed, and he for sure didn't deserve to be top 5 in '03 or '04.

Edited January 5, 2016 by OmarComing25

[Middle Buffalo]

I totally agree. They should just have a baseball history museum that covers facts and historical events in the sport without the whole individual plaque concept and the idea that players had to be great citizens off the field to be mentioned. The visitors to the museum could decide for themselves whether a particular player was an asshole or not.

 

Just like if you go to a car museum. They'll have an exhibit showing small cars, then one with huge cars from certain eras with an explanation for why that was, etc. They could have a whole display about the 90s and Sosa/McGuire/Bonds and how steroids fueled incredible home run hitting feats.

It would be kind of difficult to have a museum that tells the history of Pete Rose if Pete Rose never truly comes clean regarding his gambling. Same goes for the PED users. I'm not sure Bonds would be cool with the idea that I tell his story and allege that he was a PED user.

 

It might make for an interesting museum, but until the players come clean, I'm not sure you can actually tell the story.

 

I think I'm at the point now where I'd be ok with Bonds, Clemens, et al. coming forward and telling the truth about their usage. A huge percentage of players cheated. Allow them to be judged on these merits with the idea that they did indeed cheat. Also, allow that as a consideration when evaluating their peers who did not.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

It is also worth noting that Frank and Edgar were kind of the tipping point in having players being DH's not being seen as a bad thing. I think if you flipped Ortiz and Edgar (dropping the steroid issue completely) their recognitions would also be flipped. It is also worth pointing out one played in ESPN central in Boston, the other in ESPN hell in Seattle.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Is the Hall of Fame significantly flawed? Yes. Is the Hall of Fame an irrelevant joke? No.

 

 

It's a HOF without some of the best players to ever play the game. It's a joke.

[caulfield12]

Well, the counter-argument is that Griffey, the Big Unit and finally Ichiro took away a lot of the press from Martinez, who also never was much of a self-promoter but always had a good reputation around the league with writers and fans alike.

 

You have three once-in-a-generation talents in the same organization, it's hard to break out.

 

Heck, Jay Buhner is an iconic hero and perhaps more famous than Edgar to the more casual M's fans who never seriously paid attention to how good he really was on a daily basis. He's the kind of hitter you have to watch day after day over a course of a full-season to really appreciate IMO. (Pretty much the antithesis of the McGwire/Sosa duels).

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Looking at the numbers why wouldn't anyone suspect Edgar Martinez of juicing? Had an over 1.000 OPS his age 32-37 seasons. Had a better year as a 40 year old than a 27 year old.

 

Maybe his lack of being in the spotlight actually worked in his favor.

[Eminor3rd]

Is it even true that Ortiz was better in relation to his peers? Whether you go by fWAR or bWAR Martinez has a substantial advantage by WAR, and when it comes to hitting the only thing Ortiz has on Edgar is HR (granted by a big margin), while Edgar is better at everything else, especially in OBP. Though Ortiz did lead the AL in wRC+ (157) during his offensive peak ('03-'07), during Edgar's offensive peak ('95-'00), he also led the AL in wRC+ (163) if you don't count McGwire's two and a half seasons in the AL during that time (and you shouldn't). If you go by full career instead of offensive peak Edgar looks better than Ortiz compared to his peers by wRC+.

 

Yes Ortiz has more top 5 MVP finishes, but that assumes the voting in those isn't flawed, and he for sure didn't deserve to be top 5 in '03 or '04.

 

Yeah, that's true. wRC+ is the best tool in this case (comparing hitters to the context they were in). Edgar comes out ahead of Ortiz even controlling for the steroid era.

[Eminor3rd]

Martinez is an interesting case with being primarily a DH. That's more the issue. If Thomas was the only one between him and the MVP, he should have finished higher in the voting. If a player sucks so bad defense that he was a DH even at a young age is he one of the best players of a time?

 

Yeah but look at those numbers. In 1995, Martinez was a 7.0 WAR DH! Jesus Christ. OBP of .470. How do you even slug .628 while only hitting 29 homers? 52 doubles is how, lol. I get that the DH can be a penalty, but that guy was MASHING on an otherwordly level for a pretty sustained amount of time.

 

I mean, if the DH penalty knocks those numbers down THAT much, then I think you'd have to make an argument that no relief pitcher should ever be considered for the HOF under any circumstances. I don't think anyone will argue that Mariano Rivera shouldn't be in, yet Edgar Martinez was substantially more productive than Rivera.

 

Martinez was NINETEEN WAR better than Ortiz currently is, despite playing in over 800 fewer games. I apologize for saying Ortiz was better at peak -- I didn't have the numbers in front of me.