The next market inefficiency...2nd/3rd tier pitching

[caulfield12]

Kazmir can opt out of his contract after next season. The free-agent class of pitchers is particularly thin next off-season, with Stephen Strasburg, Andrew Cashner and the Dodgers' Brett Anderson projected as the top available starters.

 

Zaidi said the Dodgers were comfortable letting Kazmir walk away after one season because of that organizational depth, the possibility of getting an extra draft pick for Kazmir next off-season and the motivation that another shot at free agency might provide Kazmir next season.

 

"In Scott's case, he and his representation are aware that next year's free-agent starting pitching market will probably be a pretty good seller's market," Zaidi said. "From our standpoint, we have a lot of good young pitching that we feel is going to be ready to contribute at some point in 2016 and certainly by 2017. No major league team used fewer than eight starting pitchers last season. The Dodgers used 16, the most in the majors, according to Baseball Reference.

 

 

http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-s...1231-story.html

 

You can start to see an argument forming for one of Gallardo, Chen, Latos and Fister being acquired by the White Sox on a one-year deal...you add Parra/A.Jackson/Span on 1-2 or 2+ option deals...and then possibly make a run at Desmond or Fowler for 2/3rd's worth of a 2016 contract OR add at the trade deadline. Financially, it's much more risk-averse than putting all your eggs in one Big 3 basket.

 

Argument being that Fulmer is added to the rotation in 2017 and you have Danks/Johnson as insurance this year in case a starter goes down or misses time, which happened to every team in the majors last year.

 

But would JR approve?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GreenSox]

Kazmir can opt out of his contract after next season. The free-agent class of pitchers is particularly thin next off-season, with Stephen Strasburg, Andrew Cashner and the Dodgers' Brett Anderson projected as the top available starters.

 

Zaidi said the Dodgers were comfortable letting Kazmir walk away after one season because of that organizational depth, the possibility of getting an extra draft pick for Kazmir next off-season and the motivation that another shot at free agency might provide Kazmir next season.

 

"In Scott's case, he and his representation are aware that next year's free-agent starting pitching market will probably be a pretty good seller's market," Zaidi said. "From our standpoint, we have a lot of good young pitching that we feel is going to be ready to contribute at some point in 2016 and certainly by 2017. No major league team used fewer than eight starting pitchers last season. The Dodgers used 16, the most in the majors, according to Baseball Reference.

 

 

http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-s...1231-story.html

 

You can start to see an argument forming for one of Gallardo, Chen, Latos and Fister being acquired by the White Sox on a one-year deal...you add Parra/A.Jackson/Span on 1-2 or 2+ option deals...and then possibly make a run at Desmond or Fowler for 2/3rd's worth of a 2016 contract OR add at the trade deadline. Financially, it's much more risk-averse than putting all your eggs in one Big 3 basket.

 

Argument being that Fulmer is added to the rotation in 2017 and you have Danks/Johnson as insurance this year in case a starter goes down or misses time, which happened to every team in the majors last year.

 

But would JR approve?

I think it's a reasonable approach; I think Parra/Jackson would markedly improve this team....basically to the extent Alex Gordon would IF they platoon them properly (big if with the skills of this manager). 2 year deals would fit right with the Todd Frazier window.

 

However, there is no way you can do this with Desmond, Chen, Gallardo or anyone with a QO.

From the Sox perspective, 3 top 50 picks is a big chance to invigorate the farm.

But from anyone's perspective, losing a nice draft choice for 1 year of a so-so player is not the way to go.

If you are going to lose a draft choice, make it worthwhile.

Edited December 31, 2015 by GreenSox

[Dick Allen]

I think it's a reasonable approach; I think Parra/Jackson would markedly improve this team....basically to the extent Alex Gordon would IF they platoon them properly (big if with the skills of this manager). 2 year deals would fit right with the Todd Frazier window.

 

However, there is no way you can do this with Desmond, Chen, Gallardo or anyone with a QO.

From the Sox perspective, 3 top 50 picks is a big chance to invigorate the farm.

But from anyone's perspective, losing a nice draft choice for 1 year of a so-so player is not the way to go.

If you are going to lose a draft choice, make it worthwhile.

I always love the "if he was platooned correctly" line. Ventura platooned Trayce Thompson early to perfection, yet when he platooned him, people complained. He needs to be playing every day. Especially with the way bullpens are used today, if you platoon and yank a guy early, you are going to have a match up later where someone will call the manager a fool for not using players correctly. It was a lot easier when they had 15 or 16 position players on the roster. Now that it is 13 or sometimes even 12, the idea of being able to platoon all over the place is hogwash, especially when starting pitchers are making shorter appearances.

[Bob Sacamano]

I always love the "if he was platooned correctly" line. Ventura platooned Trayce Thompson early to perfection, yet when he platooned him, people complained. He needs to be playing every day. Especially with the way bullpens are used today, if you platoon and yank a guy early, you are going to have a match up later where someone will call the manager a fool for not using players correctly. It was a lot easier when they had 15 or 16 position players on the roster. Now that it is 13 or sometimes even 12, the idea of being able to platoon all over the place is hogwash, especially when starting pitchers are making shorter appearances.

 

Yeah he platooned Trayce at first, the 3B position last season and Konerko/Dunn in 14. I don't see how he isn't doing a good job of platooning.

[Kyyle23]

I think it's a reasonable approach; I think Parra/Jackson would markedly improve this team....basically to the extent Alex Gordon would IF they platoon them properly (big if with the skills of this manager). 2 year deals would fit right with the Todd Frazier window.

 

However, there is no way you can do this with Desmond, Chen, Gallardo or anyone with a QO.

From the Sox perspective, 3 top 50 picks is a big chance to invigorate the farm.

But from anyone's perspective, losing a nice draft choice for 1 year of a so-so player is not the way to go.

If you are going to lose a draft choice, make it worthwhile.

 

Lol, Parra and Jackson improve the team to the same extent as Gordon if platooned correctly. That's funny

[Chicago White Sox]

Our pitching depth may not be great, but I think it's good enough that you address the offense first and worry about adding another starter second. Right now, Turner & Beck are likely #6 & #7 on the depth chart. Not ideal by any means, but with Fulmer in AA, I'm not sure it's that much of a risk. I really think he could be that #6 guy by mid-season. You also have a wild card in Danish who could make the jump if he finally puts everything together. This team hasn't been afraid to call-up pitching prospects straight from AA in the past.

 

Also, the problem with adding a vet is it means Johnson likely goes to AAA. The may be nice from a depth standpoint, but does it make us better in 2016 if everyone stays healthy and how does that impact Erik's development? Johnson is a guy we really should give a legit opportunity to this year. Him becoming a solid mid-rotation starter would give us another cost-controlled asset and the flexibility to move a starter down the road for a position player (once Fulmer/Adams are ready). So if we add a veteran starter, I'm thinking more of a veteran guy coming off injury that might be ready mid-season.

[GreenSox]

I always love the "if he was platooned correctly" line. Ventura platooned Trayce Thompson early to perfection, yet when he platooned him, people complained. He needs to be playing every day. Especially with the way bullpens are used today, if you platoon and yank a guy early, you are going to have a match up later where someone will call the manager a fool for not using players correctly. It was a lot easier when they had 15 or 16 position players on the roster. Now that it is 13 or sometimes even 12, the idea of being able to platoon all over the place is hogwash, especially when starting pitchers are making shorter appearances.

Well of course you do. Nothing like 3 years of non-competitive teams.

He platooned Thompson to ease him in because he was a young player, not because he couldn't hit right handed pitching. Right handed Avi, not "proven veteran" Melky, was his primary platoon partner.

Based on his use (or non-use ) of pinch hitters, moves such as pinch running for Abreu in close games in late innings (even when Abreu wasn't the lead runner), limited use of defensive replacements, it remains to be seen whether he can operate in this fashion. (thankfully, he cut back on the pinch running for Abreu stuff).

Now the Sox haven't had a decent bench in years, so maybe with more options, we'd see more use.

 

[BlackSox13]

Yeah he platooned Trayce at first, the 3B position last season and Konerko/Dunn in 14. I don't see how he isn't doing a good job of platooning.

Ya, I don't get the knock on Ventura to be honest. The FO gives Ventura the players to make up the lineup card so Ventura is just doing his best to work with what he's given.

 

As for adding starting pitching depth, I like the idea of adding Beachy. I think Latos and Fister will be a bit costly for what the Sox are looking for.

[caulfield12]

I think it's a reasonable approach; I think Parra/Jackson would markedly improve this team....basically to the extent Alex Gordon would IF they platoon them properly (big if with the skills of this manager). 2 year deals would fit right with the Todd Frazier window.

 

However, there is no way you can do this with Desmond, Chen, Gallardo or anyone with a QO.

From the Sox perspective, 3 top 50 picks is a big chance to invigorate the farm.

But from anyone's perspective, losing a nice draft choice for 1 year of a so-so player is not the way to go.

If you are going to lose a draft choice, make it worthwhile.

 

 

Here's the way to add three guys and not lose a single pick...upgrading three weaknesses instead of just one.

 

 

Latos or Fister is signed to a one year deal, then you wait until June to add Fowler or Desmond (in June) depending on how Saladino and the outfield situation is going...

 

So essentially Latos/Fister vs. Erik Johnson/Danks and you buy insurance against injury and can attach a QO if they pitch well (which they're going to be more motivated to do on a one year deal, theoretically).

 

Then you're looking at Parra getting most of the playing time in RF. Garcia would DH against lefties, with Shuck playing RF for Parra. If you want to spend more for a higher OPS, you go Span over Parra and still keep the draft pick.

 

And you don't have to worry about long-term ramifications for signing any of the Big 3 to five year exploding contracts. Not to mention you have even more financial flexibility created next season.

Edited December 31, 2015 by caulfield12

[cabiness42]

Here's the way to add three guys and not lose a single pick.

 

 

Latos or Fister is signed to a one year deal, then you wait until June to add Fowler or Desmond (in June) depending on how Saladino and the outfield situation is going...

 

So essentially Latos/Fister vs. Erik Johnson/Danks and you buy insurance against injury and can attach a QO if they pitch well (which they're going to motivated to on a one year deal).

 

Then you're looking at Parra getting most of the playing time in RF. Garcia would DH against lefties, with Shuck playing RF for Parra. If you want to spend more for a higher OPS, you go Span over Parra and still keep the draft pick.

 

And you don't have to worry about long-term ramifications for signing any of the Big 3 to five year exploding contracts. Not to mention you have even more financial flexibility created next season.

 

Yeah, because nobody is going to sign those two before June.

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah, because nobody is going to sign those two before June.

 

Yeah they will definitely be signed.

[Dick Allen]

Well of course you do. Nothing like 3 years of non-competitive teams.

He platooned Thompson to ease him in because he was a young player, not because he couldn't hit right handed pitching. Right handed Avi, not "proven veteran" Melky, was his primary platoon partner.

Based on his use (or non-use ) of pinch hitters, moves such as pinch running for Abreu in close games in late innings (even when Abreu wasn't the lead runner), limited use of defensive replacements, it remains to be seen whether he can operate in this fashion. (thankfully, he cut back on the pinch running for Abreu stuff).

Now the Sox haven't had a decent bench in years, so maybe with more options, we'd see more use.

When your bench features Bonifacio, Leury Garcia, and the like, your platoon system isn't going to work. He did OK with JB Shuck. He did OK with Soto, of course if he used Soto as a DH and there was an injury and the pitcher had to hit, Don Ventura (Robbie) would be clueless again. I don't understand why you are complaining about failure. It is where all your ideas lead.

[GreenSox]

Lol, Parra and Jackson improve the team to the same extent as Gordon if platooned correctly. That's funny

Gordon OPS - .809

Parra split OPS - .809

Jackson split OPS - .770

Younger, didn't spend time on the DL, doesn't cost a draft choice, provides a better bench and more versatility. And much cheaper.

Preposterous idea, I know.

 

The groupthink around here is beyond belief. Especially when it's non-stop advocacy of a methodology that has repeatedly failed. Vanquish us non-believers.

[Dick Allen]

Here's the way to add three guys and not lose a single pick...upgrading three weaknesses instead of just one.

 

 

Latos or Fister is signed to a one year deal, then you wait until June to add Fowler or Desmond (in June) depending on how Saladino and the outfield situation is going...

 

So essentially Latos/Fister vs. Erik Johnson/Danks and you buy insurance against injury and can attach a QO if they pitch well (which they're going to be more motivated to do on a one year deal, theoretically).

 

Then you're looking at Parra getting most of the playing time in RF. Garcia would DH against lefties, with Shuck playing RF for Parra. If you want to spend more for a higher OPS, you go Span over Parra and still keep the draft pick.

 

And you don't have to worry about long-term ramifications for signing any of the Big 3 to five year exploding contracts. Not to mention you have even more financial flexibility created next season.

Weren't you the guy telling us signing the middle tier free agents was a terrible plan? Do you ever keep a goalpost in the same place?

[caulfield12]

Ya, I don't get the knock on Ventura to be honest. The FO gives Ventura the players to make up the lineup card so Ventura is just doing his best to work with what he's given.

 

As for adding starting pitching depth, I like the idea of adding Beachy. I think Latos and Fister will be a bit costly for what the Sox are looking for.

 

Hasn't Beachy had two TJ's already? At any rate, that's the idea....whoever, Porcello, Masterson, there has to be a pitcher out there who fits this scheme and would be an upgrade on Johnson.

 

Only Medlen and Capuano have made it through to the other side of that double TJ...obviously, it will come down to what teams are willing to pay Fister and Latos.

[caulfield12]

Weren't you the guy telling us signing the middle tier free agents was a terrible plan? Do you ever keep a goalpost in the same place?

 

Yeah, when you consistently make the wrong choices, like we have seen.

 

 

Saying the only possible plan going forward is the Big 3 no longer feels realistic...so adjustments have to be made, otherwise Hahn and Sox fans will get left holding the bag and feel they've been sold a false bill of goods.

 

At some point, contingency plans have to be acted on.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, when you consistently make the wrong choices, like we have seen.

 

 

Saying the only possible plan going forward is the Big 3 no longer feels realistic...so adjustments have to be made, otherwise Hahn and Sox fans will get left holding the bag and feel they've been sold a false bill of goods.

 

At some point, contingency plans have to be acted on.

LMAO.

 

Your game is to try to determine what you believe to be the White Sox plan. Once you think you have it, you post endlessly about how the other way is THE way to go. The White Sox don't cost you any money or any time you don't want to give up. In fact, I am quite certain you enjoy when they suck. As far as I can tell, none of the top 3 OFs have signed, and it has been reported that if the Sox fail in their attempt to lure one, they will be adding an OF regardless. So now tell us how that is wrong.

[Chicago White Sox]

Yeah, when you consistently make the wrong choices, like we have seen.

 

 

Saying the only possible plan going forward is the Big 3 no longer feels realistic...so adjustments have to be made, otherwise Hahn and Sox fans will get left holding the bag and feel they've been sold a false bill of goods.

 

At some point, contingency plans have to be acted on.

But we're nowhere there that point. As usual, you're jumping to conclusions based on nothing.

[Kyyle23]

Gordon OPS - .809

Parra split OPS - .809

Jackson split OPS - .770

Younger, didn't spend time on the DL, doesn't cost a draft choice, provides a better bench and more versatility. And much cheaper.

Preposterous idea, I know.

 

The groupthink around here is beyond belief. Especially when it's non-stop advocacy of a methodology that has repeatedly failed. Vanquish us non-believers.

 

Oh let's look at stats in a vacuum and not consider how platooning players affects their production /greensox

 

Tell me, oh baseball genius, why don't other teams go to a straight platoon system that you are certain will work with 200 percent success?

[Dick Allen]

But we're nowhere there that point. As usual, you're jumping to conclusions based on nothing.

He makes up conclusions. He told us JR would exercise Alexei's option because of his stupid loyalty. He told us the White Sox didn't make the playoffs in 2012 because they signed Adam Dunn instead of Victor Martinez. Of course Dunn hit 41 homers in 2012 and Martinez missed that season with an injury. He now is on a catcher needs to be a leader kick because of what kansascity.com tells him about Sal Perez. I mention Avila has been a playoff team catcher, he tells us that was in the past, but mentions Matt Weiters as a leader type catcher, and mentions how they were in the playoffs in 2014. He obviously forgets to tell you Weiters was injured and played 26 games. He is a clear troll.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

When your bench features Bonifacio, Leury Garcia, and the like, your platoon system isn't going to work. He did OK with JB Shuck. He did OK with Soto, of course if he used Soto as a DH and there was an injury and the pitcher had to hit, Don Ventura (Robbie) would be clueless again. I don't understand why you are complaining about failure. It is where all your ideas lead.

 

This is a good point. I'm a fan of platooning, but your entire roster needs versatility to really make it work. If you have two guys who can only play one position, it makes it a little tougher.

 

Case in point, our favorite team on the North Side. They did a lot of platooning last year, but they had guys who could play 2b/OF, C/OF, LF/CF/RF, 3B/LF, and that made it a lot easier and more successful.

[BlackSox13]

Hasn't Beachy had two TJ's already? At any rate, that's the idea....whoever, Porcello, Masterson, there has to be a pitcher out there who fits this scheme and would be an upgrade on Johnson.

 

Only Medlen and Capuano have made it through to the other side of that double TJ...obviously, it will come down to what teams are willing to pay Fister and Latos.

Yep, Beachy has had two TJ's and that's why he's a cheaper option but its like!y the Sox are looking for a cheap fall back option anyway because they seem willing to pencil EJ into the rotation which I get, he's earned another look.

[Chicago White Sox]

He makes up conclusions. He told us JR would exercise Alexei's option because of his stupid loyalty. He told us the White Sox didn't make the playoffs in 2012 because they signed Adam Dunn instead of Victor Martinez. Of course Dunn hit 41 homers in 2012 and Martinez missed that season with an injury. He now is on a catcher needs to be a leader kick because of what kansascity.com tells him about Sal Perez. I mention Avila has been a playoff team catcher, he tells us that was in the past, but mentions Matt Weiters as a leader type catcher, and mentions how they were in the playoffs in 2014. He obviously forgets to tell you Weiters was injured and played 26 games. He is a clear troll.

I'll admit I get a kick out of the catcher leadership idea. Intangibles have some importance, but you're really reaching when you use them as a primary counter-point against a team's ability to compete. Go ahead and say these guys don't call good games and/or work well with their pitchers, but don't go with some high-level "leadership" bulls*** that has minimal direct impact on the game.

[jasonxctf]

Ya, I don't get the knock on Ventura to be honest. The FO gives Ventura the players to make up the lineup card so Ventura is just doing his best to work with what he's given.

 

As for adding starting pitching depth, I like the idea of adding Beachy. I think Latos and Fister will be a bit costly for what the Sox are looking for.

 

i remember yelling at the TV many times back in 2013/2014, in the 7th-9th inning's with a runner on 1st/2nd and Dunn being up. Opponent brings in a LOOGY, and Robin lets Dunn hit. (or last year with Laroche)

[caulfield12]

Sigh.

 

Clearly the Orioles were also not in the post-season in 2012, either.

Edited December 31, 2015 by caulfield12