The next market inefficiency...2nd/3rd tier pitching

[BlackSox13]

i remember yelling at the TV many times back in 2013/2014, in the 7th-9th inning's with a runner on 1st/2nd and Dunn being up. Opponent brings in a LOOGY, and Robin lets Dunn hit. (or last year with Laroche)

As has already been pointed out, look at the options on the bench Robin has had to work with.

[caulfield12]

I'll admit I get a kick out of the catcher leadership idea. Intangibles have some importance, but you're really reaching when you use them as a primary counter-point against a team's ability to compete. Go ahead and say these guys don't call good games and/or work well with their pitchers, but don't go with some high-level "leadership" bulls*** that has minimal direct impact on the game.

 

So you think it's a complete random coincidence that guys like Molina, Posey, Martin, McCann usually play for winning teams/organizations..or that the majority of really good teams in the last 10-15 years had above-average or franchise-level catchers (Mauer, etc.)?

Edited December 31, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

i remember yelling at the TV many times back in 2013/2014, in the 7th-9th inning's with a runner on 1st/2nd and Dunn being up. Opponent brings in a LOOGY, and Robin lets Dunn hit. (or last year with Laroche)

What were the other options? That is the key. At least with those guys, there is a chance they could put one on the board. People gave Ozzie crap for putting Thome in the line up vs. Sabathia. He didn't hit him well, but took him deep a few times. The problem is, if you pinch hit with a weak hitter, and they either switch pitchers then or later in the game, you are going to have the same problem. With 4 guys on the bench and one being a catcher which every manager is reluctant to use, even in the NL with no DH, there aren't all these possibilities. It's a great theory, but actually being able to pull it off all the time isn't reasonable, and when your bench is short anyway, it makes it more unreasonable.

[LittleHurt05]

So you think it's a complete random coincidence that guys like Molina, Posey, Martin, McCann usually play for winning teams/organizations..or that the majority of really good teams in the last 10-15 years had above-average or franchise-level catchers (Mauer, etc.)?

 

By WAR, those are the five best catchers in all of baseball since 2010. When you have players who are really good at baseball, the teams are more likely to be winning. It's not just about intangibles there, it's talent.

[caulfield12]

By WAR, those are the five best catchers in all of baseball since 2010. When you have players who are really good at baseball, the teams are more likely to be winning. It's not just about intangibles there, it's talent.

 

But it's also the most important position on the field.

 

The majority of MLB managers spent at least part of their major or minor league careers at that position.

[Dick Allen]

By WAR, those are the five best catchers in all of baseball since 2010. When you have players who are really good at baseball, the teams are more likely to be winning. It's not just about intangibles there, it's talent.

Sometimes they play on bad teams as well. When teams win, the chemistry is great, the leaders are great. Yet those guys have played for and probably will play on bad teams again. Avila played on playoff teams , so did Navarro, yet, because they will be wearing a White Sox jersey, it doesn't count.

[Chicago White Sox]

By WAR, those are the five best catchers in all of baseball since 2010. When you have players who are really good at baseball, the teams are more likely to be winning. It's not just about intangibles there, it's talent.

Thank you. No reason for me to respond now.

[Dick Allen]

But it's also the most important position on the field.

 

The majority of MLB managers spent at least part of their major or minor league careers at that position.

Majority would be more than half. Another falsehood.

[GreenSox]

As has already been pointed out, look at the options on the bench Robin has had to work with.

One player he had was Soto.

He pinch hit a grand total of 4 times.

He DHd 3 games.

[Jose Abreu]

One player he had was Soto.

He pinch hit a grand total of 4 times.

He DHd 3 games.

Why would you want to pinch hit or DH a .219 hitter more than that?

[Kyyle23]

Why would you want to pinch hit or DH a .219 hitter more than that?

 

You also lose your backup C if something happens to Flowers

[ptatc]

One player he had was Soto.

He pinch hit a grand total of 4 times.

He DHd 3 games.

Most managers will not use the backup catcher in that role. The sox would have the pitcher hitting in that scenario which is even a worse idea than not platooning.

[OmarComing25]

One player he had was Soto.

He pinch hit a grand total of 4 times.

He DHd 3 games.

You have yet to come up with one legitimate example where Robin failed to platoon correctly.

[Dick Allen]

You have yet to come up with one legitimate example where Robin failed to platoon correctly.

And when he did platoon Trayce Thompson to what seemed like perfection, he was a fool for not throwing him to the wolves right away. Of course he was also a fool for throwing Rodon to the wolves right away.

[GreenSox]

You have yet to come up with one legitimate example where Robin failed to platoon correctly.

He doesn't platoon for the purpose of real platooning at all. so the only evidence i can provide is pinch hitting and pinch running. Evidence which is, predictably, ignored.

Now the CW is that Soto with his .780 OPS against lefties is no good....esp compared to Laroche and his .383 OPS.

Why wouldn't you play a 2nd catcher at another position? To protect against the slight chance that the starting catcher is injured? So you put yourself at a disadvantage game after game, to protect the slight chance that the starting catcher may get hurt and cost you one game?

 

And the groupthink keeps rolling on.

Edited December 31, 2015 by GreenSox

[Dick Allen]

He doesn't platoon for the purpose of real platooning at all. so the only evidence i can provide is pinch hitting and pinch running. Evidence which is, predictably, ignored.

Now the CW is that Soto with his .780 OPS against lefties is no good.

Why wouldn't you play a 2nd catcher at another position? To protect against the slight chance that the starting catcher is injured? So you put yourself at a disadvantage game after game, to protect the one game where the starting catcher may get hurt?

 

And the groupthink keeps rolling on.

Wasn't Robin among the leaders in using pinch hitters? I think he was. According to Bill James his 118 pinch hitters was above average, and considering he doesn't have pitchers hitting, although I will give you he had some hitters hit like pitchers, that shows, that once again, your issues with Robbie are pure fiction.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Dick Allen

[OmarComing25]

He doesn't platoon for the purpose of real platooning at all. so the only evidence i can provide is pinch hitting and pinch running. Evidence which is, predictably, ignored.

Now the CW is that Soto with his .780 OPS against lefties is no good....esp compared to Laroche and his .383 OPS.

Why wouldn't you play a 2nd catcher at another position? To protect against the slight chance that the starting catcher is injured? So you put yourself at a disadvantage game after game, to protect the slight chance that the starting catcher may get hurt and cost you one game?

 

And the groupthink keeps rolling on.

So you're going to criticize Robin specifically for something literally every manager does?

[jasonxctf]

What were the other options? That is the key. At least with those guys, there is a chance they could put one on the board. People gave Ozzie crap for putting Thome in the line up vs. Sabathia. He didn't hit him well, but took him deep a few times. The problem is, if you pinch hit with a weak hitter, and they either switch pitchers then or later in the game, you are going to have the same problem. With 4 guys on the bench and one being a catcher which every manager is reluctant to use, even in the NL with no DH, there aren't all these possibilities. It's a great theory, but actually being able to pull it off all the time isn't reasonable, and when your bench is short anyway, it makes it more unreasonable.

 

2013

Kepplinger

Backup Catcher (when they were carrying 3)

Jordan Danks

Semien

 

2014

Semien

Konerko

Sierra

Danks

Backup Catcher (when they were carrying 3)

 

I also disagree with the concern about using your backup catcher. If it's the 7th/8th/9th and and you are pinch hitting your DH, what's the risk? So your starting catcher gets hurt in the 2 innings or extra innings, you have to move your now DH to C and then your pitcher has to hit going forward? If you are already losing, why not create the problem?

 

[ptatc]

He doesn't platoon for the purpose of real platooning at all. so the only evidence i can provide is pinch hitting and pinch running. Evidence which is, predictably, ignored.

Now the CW is that Soto with his .780 OPS against lefties is no good....esp compared to Laroche and his .383 OPS.

Why wouldn't you play a 2nd catcher at another position? To protect against the slight chance that the starting catcher is injured? So you put yourself at a disadvantage game after game, to protect the slight chance that the starting catcher may get hurt and cost you one game?

 

And the groupthink keeps rolling on.

Its not from the slight chance that the catcher gets injured only. Its also that if he plays the backup catcher that way he has zero options for pinch hitting later. He would really limit his options unless he has a viable third catcher.

[BlackSox13]

And what exactly does RV and pinch hitting have to do with market in-efficiency? May as well toss this thread into the scrap heap with the rest of the RV sucks threads thanks to the chronic whiners. Call the whaaaaaaambulance.

Edited December 31, 2015 by BlackSox13

[GreenSox]

And whant exactly does RV and pinch hitting have to do with market in-efficiency? May as well toss this thread into the scrap heap with the rest of the RV sucks threads thanks to the chronic whiners. Call the whaaaaaaambulance.

Actually, I made one comment that the Sox field management doesn't take advantage of platoon and platoon-like situations, one of the elements of market inefficiencies, and then the groupthink proceeded to pile on post after post....not to analyze, because there was little analysis involved.

As I've said before, Cubs have their goats and lovable losing.....and Sox fans are overly sentimental to their heroes and icons.

As is, frankly, the front office.

And to be fair to Ventura, to look at the other side, which I do, the front office has not done the best job in compiling a versatile roster, esp. bench (partially due to FO sentimentality).

[GGajewski18]

Tim Lincecum

Brandon Beachy

Edwin Jackson

Mat Latos

Yaisel Sierra

 

All names I would consider.

[Dick Allen]

2013

Kepplinger

Backup Catcher (when they were carrying 3)

Jordan Danks

Semien

 

2014

Semien

Konerko

Sierra

Danks

Backup Catcher (when they were carrying 3)

 

I also disagree with the concern about using your backup catcher. If it's the 7th/8th/9th and and you are pinch hitting your DH, what's the risk? So your starting catcher gets hurt in the 2 innings or extra innings, you have to move your now DH to C and then your pitcher has to hit going forward? If you are already losing, why not create the problem?

Then you would be stuck with Tyler Flowers hitting with no pinch hitter. I am sure if Soto struck out in the 8th and Flowers came up in the 9th with the tying run on 3rd and winning run at second, and hit, Ventura would be a fool. Again, he isn't unique not using catchers as DHs and PHs if there aren't 3 guys capable of catching on the roster.

[southsider2k5]

Tim Lincecum

Brandon Beachy

Edwin Jackson

Mat Latos

Yaisel Sierra

 

All names I would consider.

 

Gavin Floyd seems to be a wild card that could happen.

 

[OmarComing25]

Gavin Floyd seems to be a wild card that could happen.

I'd be down for a minor-league deal with Floyd for sure.