2016 Democratic Thread

[Steve9347]

Bernie Sanders has become a much better debater and taking O'Malley out of the equations has added to contrast between the two.

 

I think the biggest question is how many of the young people that he's getting out there between ages 18-29 will still be motivated to vote for Hillary in a national election when/if Sanders has to concede the nomination?

 

It's something like 75-80% right now. Even Obama wasn't close to that number in 2008.

And it's mostly because of a stupid hashtag and memes.

[pettie4sox]

And it's mostly because of a stupid hashtag and memes.

 

#feelthebern

 

Steve

[caulfield12]

When you think about it, Sanders has become a one-man version of Occupy Wall Street.

 

It's forcing Hillary to tack to the left because her pragmatic/realistic/moderate/progressive side isn't going to motivate anyone, no matter how many times she mentions the Children's Legal Defense fund, CHIP, the fight over Hillary Care, etc.

 

The Clintons made so much of the fact they were supposedly broke when they left the White House (that was quickly remedied by book deals)...but I don't feel many young people get a sense that Hillary cares about poor people. From reading about all the deals and sources of money for the Clinton Foundation (they can locate it in Harlem, but their hearts are in Westchester), the picture of what they've actually accomplished for all the millions of dollars "invested" gets murkier and murkier. Heck, the left wing of the Democratic party doesn't 100% believe the Obamas really care about the issues Sanders is directly taking on, either. Only Bill had that seemingly magical ability to connect to people and no matter how earnestly she endeavors, it's just lacking in her...that genuineness or authenticity, it's clear she's always going to be arguing the Presidency is something she has earned and has the right to but she doesn't know how to win it or exactly why.

 

It's that tone-deafness which already destroyed Jeb Bush.

Edited February 5, 2016 by caulfield12

[greg775]

When you think about it, Sanders has become a one-man version of Occupy Wall Street.

 

It's forcing Hillary to tack to the left because her pragmatic/realistic/moderate/progressive side isn't going to motivate anyone, no matter how many times she mentions the Children's Legal Defense fund, CHIP, the fight over Hillary Care, etc.

 

The Clintons made so much of the fact they were supposedly broke when they left the White House (that was quickly remedied by book deals)...but I don't feel many young people get a sense that Hillary cares about poor people. From reading about all the deals and sources of money for the Clinton Foundation (they can locate it in Harlem, but their hearts are in Westchester), the picture of what they've actually accomplished for all the millions of dollars "invested" gets murkier and murkier. Heck, the left wing of the Democratic party doesn't 100% believe the Obamas really care about the issues Sanders is directly taking on, either. Only Bill had that seemingly magical ability to connect to people and no matter how earnestly she endeavors, it's just lacking in her...that genuineness or authenticity, it's clear she's always going to be arguing the Presidency is something she has earned and has the right to but she doesn't know how to win it or exactly why.

 

It's that tone-deafness which already destroyed Jeb Bush.

 

But unlike Bush, Hillary has the media in her hip pocket. The key for her is they WANT her to win. So that means a lot and will assure her the Presidency likely in a landslide.

[Steve9347]

But unlike Bush, Hillary has the media in her hip pocket. The key for her is they WANT her to win. So that means a lot and will assure her the Presidency likely in a landslide.

This post seems like it was written 6 months or 8 years ago.

[bmags]

If the left wing of the democratic party actually cared about issues enough to vote during midterms more than sharing articles on social media they could probably have accomplished more.

 

Hillary's campaign is so much better this time, she's a better candidate than 08. She's smart and she doesn't pull any punches. Something I didn't care for in 08 but see a lot of appeal in now.

 

You know why Clinton has such a murky record? She has actually been in the policy fights of the last 20 years and having to be part of the decisions of watering down or strengthening bills that affected people.

 

Meanwhile Sanders was in his safe lillywhite seat in Vermont sniping. Caucusing with the democrats and never getting an elite chair in the senate. But yeah, I'm sure as president his debate skillz will convince the country to vote in a wave of candidates and create a liberal dream gov't.

 

I'm convinced.

[RockRaines]

If the left wing of the democratic party actually cared about issues enough to vote during midterms more than sharing articles on social media they could probably have accomplished more.

 

Hillary's campaign is so much better this time, she's a better candidate than 08. She's smart and she doesn't pull any punches. Something I didn't care for in 08 but see a lot of appeal in now.

 

You know why Clinton has such a murky record? She has actually been in the policy fights of the last 20 years and having to be part of the decisions of watering down or strengthening bills that affected people.

 

Meanwhile Sanders was in his safe lillywhite seat in Vermont sniping. Caucusing with the democrats and never getting an elite chair in the senate. But yeah, I'm sure as president his debate skillz will convince the country to vote in a wave of candidates and create a liberal dream gov't.

 

I'm convinced.

I think you need to brush up on your Sanders history because you are painting both with pretty inaccurate broad brushes. For example, its not exactly safe or easy to get elected to the house as an independent, regardless of where you are from. Its also extremely difficult to win elections when money is brought against you. It's also very difficult to be in any position of leadership in the senate or house as an independent socialist. His entry into politics wasnt nearly as easy as Silver Spoon Hillary's was with Wellsley, Yale and then on the coattails of her husband.

 

They put it pretty accurately on the news this morning when they said Hillary is the bead/brain option and Sanders is the heart.

Edited February 5, 2016 by RockRaines

[StrangeSox]

If the left wing of the democratic party actually cared about issues enough to vote during midterms more than sharing articles on social media they could probably have accomplished more.

 

Hillary's campaign is so much better this time, she's a better candidate than 08. She's smart and she doesn't pull any punches. Something I didn't care for in 08 but see a lot of appeal in now.

 

You know why Clinton has such a murky record? She has actually been in the policy fights of the last 20 years and having to be part of the decisions of watering down or strengthening bills that affected people.

 

Meanwhile Sanders was in his safe lillywhite seat in Vermont sniping. Caucusing with the democrats and never getting an elite chair in the senate. But yeah, I'm sure as president his debate skillz will convince the country to vote in a wave of candidates and create a liberal dream gov't.

 

I'm convinced.

 

I'm not sure that it's the more activist left wing that sits out off-year elections. The DNC as a whole hasn't really had a strategy for that for decades whereas Republicans and conservatives have focused on politics from the local level on up for at least a couple of decades now.

[bmags]

I'm not sure that it's the more activist left wing that sits out off-year elections. The DNC as a whole hasn't really had a strategy for that for decades whereas Republicans and conservatives have focused on politics from the local level on up for at least a couple of decades now.

 

This is true to an extent, I'm not sure I believe the core youth support of Sanders that is loudest are the same as the group you are talking about

[StrangeSox]

This is true to an extent, I'm not sure I believe the core youth support of Sanders that is loudest are the same as the group you are talking about

True, but a significant amount of that core of young voters may not even have been eligible to vote in 2010. I think the quickest way to turn them back off of politics or at least push them into voting 3rd party rather than Democrats is the line that some Clinton supporters seem to be taking though, mainly that they're not "real" Democrats, fundamental change is a hopeless fantasy of dumb children, etc.

 

Without some actual data of the ideological breakdown of Democratic voters and non-voters in Presidential and non-Presidential elections, I don't think you can really make that swipe in your first sentence. And for as much as I've supported the core concept of strategic voting over vanity pat-yourself-on-the-back 3rd party votes, the party establishment still shares in the blame if they have no coherent strategy or message to get people to the polls. In the 5 years I lived at my old house, I had exactly one candidate's campaign come door-to-door to talk and leave campaign literature (Pat McGuire, state senator). I compare that to first-hand experience of helping at the local level where the candidates canvased the entire area in the weeks leading up to the off-year spring election in order to drive turnout.

[southsider2k5]

If the left wing of the democratic party actually cared about issues enough to vote during midterms more than sharing articles on social media they could probably have accomplished more.

 

Hillary's campaign is so much better this time, she's a better candidate than 08. She's smart and she doesn't pull any punches. Something I didn't care for in 08 but see a lot of appeal in now.

 

You know why Clinton has such a murky record? She has actually been in the policy fights of the last 20 years and having to be part of the decisions of watering down or strengthening bills that affected people.

 

Meanwhile Sanders was in his safe lillywhite seat in Vermont sniping. Caucusing with the democrats and never getting an elite chair in the senate. But yeah, I'm sure as president his debate skillz will convince the country to vote in a wave of candidates and create a liberal dream gov't.

 

I'm convinced.

 

I don't see it that way at all. In fact I think it is the opposite. Team Clinton has been reacting to those debates and following the political winds and not pushing those winds. They have watered down things because the polls told them it was prudent to do so, not because they were compromising for the greater good. They have always moved to a political position, and not down from it because it wasn't fully popular.

[bmags]

True, but a significant amount of that core of young voters may not even have been eligible to vote in 2010. I think the quickest way to turn them back off of politics or at least push them into voting 3rd party rather than Democrats is the line that some Clinton supporters seem to be taking though, mainly that they're not "real" Democrats, fundamental change is a hopeless fantasy of dumb children, etc.

 

Without some actual data of the ideological breakdown of Democratic voters and non-voters in Presidential and non-Presidential elections, I don't think you can really make that swipe in your first sentence. And for as much as I've supported the core concept of strategic voting over vanity pat-yourself-on-the-back 3rd party votes, the party establishment still shares in the blame if they have no coherent strategy or message to get people to the polls. In the 5 years I lived at my old house, I had exactly one candidate's campaign come door-to-door to talk and leave campaign literature (Pat McGuire, state senator). I compare that to first-hand experience of helping at the local level where the candidates canvased the entire area in the weeks leading up to the off-year spring election in order to drive turnout.

 

You know well how disappointed I have been in DNC party leadership since Dean left. They are way too comfortable in owning only the presidency and seem to be in a terrible echo chamber of feeling comfortable due to national polling advantages and individual policy polling advantages.

 

That said, it's hard for me to look at Sanders and not see the living embodiment of Greensox's hero worship on the left, that continues to focus on top down political change. It is insane to me, 7-9 years removed after the most successful liberal grassroots effort in 30 years that led to democratic policies that had been DOA for the same time period, we are in a position where I'm getting harangued that the way to single payer is 1) elect Bernie Sanders -> 2) Political revolution . This next president for dems if 2016 will be defense on policies from 08-10. I hope to God it doesn't take a complete collapse of all 3 houses for them to shake up the group and start over.

 

I used to be so frustrated that the most liberal bill we could get was whatever bill nelson would vote for, but it's way worse to rely on executive action on everything, but still better than actively losing on policy.

[bmags]

I don't see it that way at all. In fact I think it is the opposite. Team Clinton has been reacting to those debates and following the political winds and not pushing those winds. They have watered down things because the polls told them it was prudent to do so, not because they were compromising for the greater good. They have always moved to a political position, and not down from it because it wasn't fully popular.

 

You are pre-inclined to believe such. In 08 she stuck with the individual mandate being necessary for healthcare reform (she was obviously right), she has stuck to the hyde amendment this year, and then pivots on things she is not as hardset on. There are worse things than a president being responsive to pressure from the base.

[Jenksismyhero]

You are pre-inclined to believe such. In 08 she stuck with the individual mandate being necessary for healthcare reform (she was obviously right), she has stuck to the hyde amendment this year, and then pivots on things she is not as hardset on. There are worse things than a president being responsive to pressure from the base.

 

 

FWIW: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/clinton-spendin...idates-combined

[bmags]

Really could care less, money better spent then the absurd food costs her campaign had in 08.

[caulfield12]

Look at her wavering on trade agreements when the political winds shift.

 

Her bringing up the derivatives/swaps legislation that came from her hisband's administration...why didn't Sanders turn around and come back at her with "if it was good enough for your husband and greenspan and rubin, what evidence exists that you were you against it at that time?"

 

She took forever on Keystone waiting to see which way it would play out.

 

She's now anti state death penalty when her husband had the highest execution rate of any state governed by a Democrat in the 1980's and early 90's precisely because Dukakis, Mondale, McGovern and liberals in general got hammered for being soft on crime (see Lee Atwater/Bush/Willie Horton). Most cynics believe it was purely politics...anticipating weaknesses that could be eliminated for a potential presidential campaign.

[caulfield12]

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/05/dems_stop_...ious_s_that_is/

 

This is the best and most detailed article so far that explains why 84-86% of women under thirty are currently supporting Bernie Sanders...

[cabiness42]

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/05/dems_stop_...ious_s_that_is/

 

This is the best and most detailed article so far that explains why 84-86% of women under thirty are currently supporting Bernie Sanders...

 

He's the only guy who will e-mail them without including a dick pic.

[greg775]

I realize as a Hillary-hater I'm kind of biased against her no matter what. But to the Hillary supporters I have a serious comment/question I'd love for you to answer. I listened to her today and want to know how you can stand listening to her SCREAM all her cliches. She gets to the mic and screams way too loudly and just utters cliche after cliche.

Why is that working for you? Do you want her because she's the best of a weak crop or do you actually believe in Hillary?

[Balta1701]

I realize as a Hillary-hater I'm kind of biased against her no matter what. But to the Hillary supporters I have a serious comment/question I'd love for you to answer. I listened to her today and want to know how you can stand listening to her SCREAM all her cliches. She gets to the mic and screams way too loudly and just utters cliche after cliche.

Why is that working for you? Do you want her because she's the best of a weak crop or do you actually believe in Hillary?

Jesus christ stop and read what you wrote. That's really the argument you want to bring? You don't like her shrill volume level at the microphone?

[greg775]

Jesus christ stop and read what you wrote. That's really the argument you want to bring? You don't like her shrill volume level at the microphone?

No I don't like that.

And Balta, you are a smart person. You know little things like how a person looks or sounds means a TON in Presidential elections. Nixon losing to Kennedy because of the way he sweat on TV. Humphrey's looks and voice. You don't think superficiial things like looks and screaming matter? I'd say 30 percent of all voters vote on likeability. In our superficial country?? Of course they do.

I despise Hillary for a lot of reasons but yes I wonder how Hillary supporters can stand listening to her scream out cliches? I notice you didn't answer my specific question but effectively changed the subject to screaming at me.

 

[MexSoxFan#1]

Dat troll game of greg's is GOAT level.

 

I simply refuse to believe he's being serious.

[caulfield12]

No I don't like that.

And Balta, you are a smart person. You know little things like how a person looks or sounds means a TON in Presidential elections. Nixon losing to Kennedy because of the way he sweat on TV. Humphrey's looks and voice. You don't think superficiial things like looks and screaming matter? I'd say 30 percent of all voters vote on likeability. In our superficial country?? Of course they do.

I despise Hillary for a lot of reasons but yes I wonder how Hillary supporters can stand listening to her scream out cliches? I notice you didn't answer my specific question but effectively changed the subject to screaming at me.

 

It's scarier to think Rubio might be our next president not having the ability to do anything but repeat himself...four consecutive times...even when he's being directly ridiculed for it by Christie.

[cabiness42]

Dat troll game of greg's is GOAT level.

 

I simply refuse to believe he's being serious.

 

I've been saying the same thing about Donald Trump.

[caulfield12]

Depending on how badly Rubio got dinged by the debate, Trump might still be the favorite and GOAT.

 

Unless Bush/Christie shift all their support behind Kasich.

 

Can Kasich be dynamic and inspirational enough to tear off support? It seems Trump will have his 25% and Cruz his Santorum/Huckabee/Tea Party coalition of 15-17.5%

 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/hillary-clin...-210913805.html

Probably not the best way to get young Democratic women back to your side....

 

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/07/its_almost..._rigged_system/

It's almost over for Hillary

Edited February 8, 2016 by caulfield12