2016 Democratic Thread

[lostfan]

I'm not comparing the stupidity of the underlying original position or the severity in which either person believed in their original position. The fact is both were against something before being for it. It's a classic flip flop. And he's not the only one that has done it.

 

Trump continuing to assert the Breitbart conclusion that Hillary started it is irrelevant to what I was pointing out.

This isn't a POSITION to shift from. This is like insisting that mangoes are computers for 5 years, then after a bunch of people tell you that you're stupid, you say ok fine, mangoes are definitely not computers.

 

A position would be "I don't like mangoes" and then later changing your mind to say "I do like mangoes."

[Jenksismyhero]

This isn't a POSITION to shift from. This is like insisting that mangoes are computers for 5 years, then after a bunch of people tell you that you're stupid, you say ok fine, mangoes are definitely not computers.

 

A position would be "I don't like mangoes" and then later changing your mind to say "I do like mangoes."

 

I don't think the people on the left who now support Hillary despite her flop flop on gay marriage ever believed gay marriage was a "positionable" argument. It was axiomatic that the right existed and there was no debate about it. It wasn't an issue that someone should be forced to "believe" in.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I don't think he's claiming that he was never a part of the birther movement. He seems to have acknowledged there isn't an issue and he's satisfied. But maybe I missed that statement. Link?

 

Here was the hilarious statement. Hillary was the vicious conniving Birther smearing Obama. Trump heroically ended Hillary's ugly attack in 2011 by getting to the truth.

 

To use your Hillary-SSM comparison, this would be like Hillary claiming she singlehandedly pushed for same-sex marriage legalization in 2003 and that it was actually Donald Trump who banned same-sex marriage in the first place.

 

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[bmags]

I don't think the people on the left who now support Hillary despite her flop flop on gay marriage ever believed gay marriage was a "positionable" argument. It was axiomatic that the right existed and there was no debate about it. It wasn't an issue that someone should be forced to "believe" in.

 

In 2004 George Bush and republicans put gay marriage ban amendments on the ballot to help drive up republican support at the polls and it worked tremendously well.

 

IN 2012 Democrats put a lot of gay marriage liegalization amendments on the ballot and it worked very well.

 

in 8 years the shift was incredible and dramatic. How you think liberals are unaware that people changed their mind is very peculiar. In the 1990s, gay marriage wasn't even the focus within the gay community, and it took a very awesome group of people to build a movement in the courts and public influence to create the groundswell.

 

There are very few politicians or people that exist in the country that were "right all along", and the poeple who were deserve credit, not revising history to believe that EVERYONe was on the right side.

[StrangeSox]

Saying "oops guess I was wrong about the whole birther thing but actually I'll take credit for bringing the whole issue to a close" in 2016 isn't a "flip flop."

 

Treating every time someone changes their mind on something over any period of time and no matter how ridiculous the original position was as a "flip flop" is the sort of nonsense that enables garbage like Trump to become nominees and office holders.

[Jenksismyhero]

Here was the hilarious statement. Hillary was the vicious conniving Birther smearing Obama. Trump heroically ended Hillary's ugly attack in 2011 by getting to the truth.

 

To use your Hillary-SSM comparison, this would be like Hillary claiming she singlehandedly pushed for same-sex marriage legalization in 2003 and that it was actually Donald Trump who banned same-sex marriage in the first place.

 

I mean, fine, one is obnoxiously, narcissistically boastful about it, the other just likes to pretend she's always been about equal rights for people despite her husband signing DOMA into law. They both still want to pretend like they've always been on the right side of the issue. The manner in which they do it is similar to how they talk about any issue.

[Jenksismyhero]

In 2004 George Bush and republicans put gay marriage ban amendments on the ballot to help drive up republican support at the polls and it worked tremendously well.

 

IN 2012 Democrats put a lot of gay marriage liegalization amendments on the ballot and it worked very well.

 

in 8 years the shift was incredible and dramatic. How you think liberals are unaware that people changed their mind is very peculiar. In the 1990s, gay marriage wasn't even the focus within the gay community, and it took a very awesome group of people to build a movement in the courts and public influence to create the groundswell.

 

There are very few politicians or people that exist in the country that were "right all along", and the poeple who were deserve credit, not revising history to believe that EVERYONe was on the right side.

 

I love how you're going so far now to excuse everyone for their ignorance on the issue because of group think. I had this very debate with people here like SS in the last ten years and was always called a bigot for being against gay marriage and pro civil union. There wasn't this bulls*** "well i excuse you for thinking that way because that's how everyone else thinks and the movement isn't big enough yet."

[Jenksismyhero]

LOL, I didn't know the stage collapsed:

 

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/donald-tr...dium=socialflow

 

Btw, don't mistake me here - Trump is a gigantic f***ing idiot and he is rightly criticized for all this nonsense. My only point is that Hillary did the same sort of maneuver even if she's being more tactful about it. No, she's not coming out and saying that she led the crusade for gay rights, but she keeps boasting about being for equal rights even though she wasn't until a few years ago.

[illinilaw08]

I mean, fine, one is obnoxiously, narcissistically boastful about it, the other just likes to pretend she's always been about equal rights for people despite her husband signing DOMA into law. They both still want to pretend like they've always been on the right side of the issue. The manner in which they do it is similar to how they talk about any issue.

 

Has Clinton actually done that though? Has she said that she always supported gay marriage? I honestly don't know.

 

Echoing other people. We can say Clinton was wrong about gay marriage 14 years ago, and that she has course corrected since that time. There is a legitimate criticism in there about Clinton following the prevailing political winds.

 

We cannot say that Trump was wrong about birtherism over the last 8 years and course corrected since that time. Trump literally said that the whole thing was Hillary Clinton's fault, and he rode to the rescue to put the issue to bed.

 

Those two examples are not even close to comparable.

 

[lostfan]

I literally don't give a f*** about what Hillary Clinton's position on gay marriage was before even 5 minutes ago. It doesn't matter.

[StrangeSox]

At least journalists seem willing to use "the word that shall not be uttered!" and are straight-up calling Trump a liar over this. He's trying to gaslight the whole country on his history with birtherism.

[bmags]

I literally don't give a f*** about what Hillary Clinton's position on gay marriage was before even 5 minutes ago. It doesn't matter.

 

I think it does matter that you changed it when it mattered. It mattered that Obama changed before 2012, but it was frankly more important that he refused to defend DOMA even when he was in his waffle stage.

 

Jenks wants to play that it's hypocritical to support gay marriage now if you ever have been gainst it.

 

But as someone who supports and supported gay marriage and pressured people to support gay marriage, it would be hypocritical for me to not help the party who helped legalize gay marriage to finish the process, then to help elect donald trump, who may have believed in gay marriage before, but now Trump's opposition to it is a part of his campaign. That matters a lot more.

 

I think opposition to gay marriage is a bigoted stance. Doesn't mean it's irredeemable if you reverse and actively support it. Life is full of moments where your eyes are opened up and you change course.

[DrunkBomber]

There are several people in the media and politics claiming that Hillary's camp started the birther stuff and also started the rumors he was muslim. There is video of both morning Joe hosts, who loathe Trump, saying it absolutely started in her campaign in 08. Her campaign even fired a scape goat for spreading around an email claiming Obama wasnt born here.

 

James Asher ‏@jimasher 16h16 hours ago Maryland, USA

#CNN says #Hillary team in 2008 never raised #Obama's birth in #Kenya. Who is closer to #HRC than #SidBlumenthal, who told me face-to-face.

 

 

The Clinton camp is running the worst presidential campaign in our lifetimes.

[bmags]

Except they didn't, and if even if they had, that would not be a sign that they are running the worst campaign in history, as clinton did not spend the rest of her political career leading a bunch of conspiracy theorists that the sitting president was not american, a muslim, and also a kenyan anti-colonialist.

 

We all know anti-colonialism is terrible and anti-american, but pro-authoritarianism is the real american.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix...shful-thinking/

 

Not true.

[Reddy]

There are several people in the media and politics claiming that Hillary's camp started the birther stuff and also started the rumors he was muslim. There is video of both morning Joe hosts, who loathe Trump, saying it absolutely started in her campaign in 08. Her campaign even fired a scape goat for spreading around an email claiming Obama wasnt born here.

 

James Asher ‏@jimasher 16h16 hours ago Maryland, USA

#CNN says #Hillary team in 2008 never raised #Obama's birth in #Kenya. Who is closer to #HRC than #SidBlumenthal, who told me face-to-face.

 

 

The Clinton camp is running the worst presidential campaign in our lifetimes.

 

Lol not even. They're breaking fundraising records every month. Unfortunately the media is the sole reason Trump is still in this thing, and the fact that none of them hold him accountable for ANYTHING he says is absurd.

 

The very fact that 15% more people think Trump is trustworthy than Clinton is a testament to this. 15%! Even though according to unbiased sources, Clinton makes false statements about 13% of the time, while 53% of Trumps statements are lies.

 

Literally the facts don't matter because of the media love-fest and spin.

 

Liberal media my ass.

[bmags]

That was written last year.

[DrunkBomber]

Sorry, Im not simply going to take the media or Clinton supporters word for it anymore. It might not have came from her mouth, but the entire rumor came from people involved in her campaign. Either way, her bringing this up again is laughable. She hasnt been able to talk policy in weeks.

 

This is a person who the current popular President and his very popular wife are campaigning for. She has her popular rapist husband campaigning for her. She has establishment politicians from both sides backing her, including people involved in the Bush administration (like that is a good thing). She has unlimited money and the support of wildly popular celebrities. She is being shielded by the media to the point that not a single network has even mentioned that they have proof democrats were selling government jobs to the highest bidder. Every single news outlet is in the tank for her, including Fox News, besides Hannity. She has been in politics her whole life as a first lady, SoS and senator. All of this and she is still plummeting in the polls. Unless Trump makes an ass out of himself again or she hits an absolute homerun in the first debate she is going to lose to an orange reality TV star. The dems made a monumental mistake anointing her the candidate.

[lostfan]

idk where this thing comes from that Hillary doesn't talk policy, she does, it's damn near all she does (when she is not directly attacking Trump, which is something that gets more air time), it's actually her entire persona as a politician.

 

Hillary literally just talked about policy at the BWA symposium this morning. CNN even covered it this time! But what are media people and consumers of media (who somehow think they are exempt from this equation) talking about? Trump's birtherism, because of course.

[StrangeSox]

Clinton has pumped out policy the entire campaign and her website is full of it. She's a huge policy wonk nerd.

 

edit: yeah what lost said, get outta here with that "Clinton doesn't talk policy" nonsense.

Edited September 16, 2016 by StrangeSox

[lostfan]

Mark Cuban earlier today on Twitter said he'd give Trump 10 million to charity if he agreed to let Cuban interview him for 4 hours specifically on his policies and their substance, just them, no handlers (then threw shade, and said he'd make the check out to Trump personally, if Trump needed the cash). Trump won't, and can't, accept this challenge, because he has no actual policies to speak of.

 

He didn't offer a similar challenge to Clinton because 1) it's not actually necessary, she already has comprehensive policies, 2) Clinton would take that deal in a heartbeat before Cuban even finished his tweets.

[bmags]

I remember when politics used to be about what policies to implement instead of just helping people feel validated that their feelings were important.

 

Miss when this place was arguing about health care and the Iraq War instead of whatever the hell this is.

 

 

[lostfan]

Since I don't really like talking out of my ass I'll mention specifically what Clinton talked about in that speech

 

-Support Rep. Clyburn's 10-20-30 poverty plan (direct 10% of federal resources to the 20% of the population that's been in poverty for 30 years or more)

-emphasize STEM education

-Paid family leave, make childcare affordable

-Equal pay for women

-Increase access to capital for entrepeneurs

-Reinvest in neglected urban communities, improve transportation for rural communities

-Criminal justice reform, gun reform

-Mentioned Flint, didn't say anything specific

-Expand Social Security

-Restore VRA

[bmags]

Considering hte lead problems in Chicago, she damn well should start a lead initiative that can bring fed borrowing to states for removing lead pipes.

 

Considering the side effects of lead it is a MORAL and ECONOMIC issue. Crazy how tepid the response has been.

 

Yeah, regulation could have helped, but capital to improve dangerous infrastructure is more important. That's a big part of gov't.

[lostfan]

Considering hte lead problems in Chicago, she damn well should start a lead initiative that can bring fed borrowing to states for removing lead pipes.

 

Considering the side effects of lead it is a MORAL and ECONOMIC issue. Crazy how tepid the response has been.

 

Yeah, regulation could have helped, but capital to improve dangerous infrastructure is more important. That's a big part of gov't.

That's the whole source of crises like Flint. Obama has basically screamed this at every one of his State of the Union Addresses.

[bmags]

That's the whole source of crises like Flint. Obama has basically screamed this at every one of his State of the Union Addresses.

 

It's funny, but it's actually one area where I believe Clinton will be more effective than Obama if elected Pres.