2016 Democratic Thread

[DrunkBomber]

Db you've brought up the Syrian thing a couple of times, what are your thoughts on that issue? The us has been funding and supplying anti assad forces for years now, so while it does complicate things with Russia, it's not exactly a new turn.

Im very anti intervention in a lot of this stuff but as Ive admitted before I dont really have an answer to it. I think Bush/Obama have destabilized the middle east to the point that it may be next to impossible to fix. I do think the fact that just yesterday we accidentally bombed Syrian Army who is fighting against Isis and killed 80 of them is simply a mistake that we cant afford at this point.

[StrangeSox]

If anyone wants pretty irrefutable proof that even if Hillary won she would be impeached very quickly watch the 12 minute video of Jason Chaffetz grilling the FBI that I posted. There is proof of multiple crimes that absolutely cannot be denied and the House Oversight Committee has no intentions of letting it go.

 

No one is surprised that the Republican House Committees will not ever let anything regarding the Clintons go. We've already had 4 years of Benghazi investigations that have found no wrong-doing many times, yet the beat still marches on.

 

Saying that Chaffetz' grandstanding is "irrefutable proof" is being extremely credulous towards his claims, to put it nicely. I do hope the Republicans lose their collective minds again, overplay their hands, impeach Hillary immediately and get slapped down hard just like the last time they pulled that stunt.

[StrangeSox]

Im very anti intervention in a lot of this stuff but as Ive admitted before I dont really have an answer to it. I think Bush/Obama have destabilized the middle east to the point that it may be next to impossible to fix. I do think the fact that just yesterday we accidentally bombed Syrian Army who is fighting against Isis and killed 80 of them is simply a mistake that we cant afford at this point.

 

But that's part of the complicated s***storm--we don't actually like Assad's regime and have been actively trying to undermine it for years now. Whatever the US is doing in Syria, playing nice with Assad isn't really in the cards in the long-run. They're trying to back anti-Assad, anti-Isis forces. Russia's doing just the opposite for their own reasons, as are the Turks. When the Russians started their campaign in Syria, they were frequently bombing anti-Assad rebels rather than ISIS. Turkey's launched attacks against Kurdish groups.

[DrunkBomber]

No one is surprised that the Republican House Committees will not ever let anything regarding the Clintons go. We've already had 4 years of Benghazi investigations that have found no wrong-doing many times, yet the beat still marches on.

 

Saying that Chaffetz' grandstanding is "irrefutable proof" is being extremely credulous towards his claims, to put it nicely. I do hope the Republicans lose their collective minds again, overplay their hands, impeach Hillary immediately and get slapped down hard just like the last time they pulled that stunt.

Calling this a witch hunt doesnt work anymore. The dems made this mistake by not looking further into the issue themselves before. The moment when Bernie said "Can we forget about the damn emails" at the debate is likely what will cause the dems this election. There is very clear proof that she committed crimes. Cooper admitted that he, Huma and Chelsea had access to the secure server. That is illegal. We know she sent classified info, also illegal. We know she had the server wiped AFTER a preservation order and subpoena, also, also illegal. These arent conspiracy theories anymore, theyre facts. The FBI was very clearly attempting to cover this up and it isnt going to work. Dems can be upset all they want about it. She broke the law many times and just because our corrupt government overlooked it for so long doesnt mean it deserves to go away. It disqualifies her from being president.

[StrangeSox]

Yes that's the republicantalkingpoints.txt, but I'm not convinced that what you're saying there/what Chaffetz is claiming is actually irrefutable proof.

 

If she is disqualified from being President because of email sever management issues, are you happy/comfortable with a President Trump? Because however much we may not like the current system as it is or who the candidates presented to us are, that's where we are today and the reality we have to work with. Either Clinton or Trump will be President, and I am much, much more comfortable with Clinton than with Trump even if every crazy conspiracy about her turned out to actually be true. Part of that is policy, of course, but perhaps an even more important part this election is just how uniquely unqualified and unprepared for office Trump is.

Edited September 19, 2016 by StrangeSox

[Soxbadger]

Im very anti intervention in a lot of this stuff but as Ive admitted before I dont really have an answer to it. I think Bush/Obama have destabilized the middle east to the point that it may be next to impossible to fix. I do think the fact that just yesterday we accidentally bombed Syrian Army who is fighting against Isis and killed 80 of them is simply a mistake that we cant afford at this point.

 

You really think this is Bush or Obama's fault?

 

That area has been destabilized so many times that you could argue its Alexander the Great's fault. Or maybe it was the Roman's. As long as religion and politics are intertwined in the middle east there are going to be problems. Those problems just manifest themselves in different ways.

 

Intervening, not intervening, it likely would have made almost no difference. Maybe if the US had just let Saddam take Kuwait and been a counterbalance to Iran there would be less terrorism, but that also means that Saddam would have been allowed to massacre whoever he wanted.

 

I could write another 1,000 pages of "Maybe if" about the Middle East. All of them end pretty much the same way. As long as there is a little piece of land that everyone thinks is magic, there is going to be fighting, because unfortunately you cant just offer normal solutions when everyone wants "magic" land, and they all believe only one very specific spot is "magic."

 

(Edit)

 

As to the rest, that is your opinion that Hillary is disqualified. Great/bad part about Republic/Democracy is that voting is opinion. At the start of our country some of the founding fathers didnt even want regular people to vote because they didnt believe that they were "qualified". Throughout our nation's history many people have not had the ability. But if you think that you are going to change people to vote for Trump, you need to sell them on Trump, not attack Hillary. Hillary is a known quantity, good/bad/indifferent, I know what I am getting with Hillary. I have no clue what Trump is about, I dont trust him and I never will.

 

So at the end of the day I view the US as ship on the ocean going towards a destination. Sometimes the US will go fast, sometimes slow, but as long as we dont do something stupid, well keep moving forward. In my opinion Trump could crash the ship, so there is just no plausible way to vote for that.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Soxbadger

[DrunkBomber]

Yes that's the republicantalkingpoints.txt, but I'm not convinced that what you're saying there/what Chaffetz is claiming is actually irrefutable proof.

I would love to hear how destroying evidence under a preservation order and subpoena and Justin Cooper testifying that he, Huma and Chelsea had access to all of the classified info on her server isnt proof she broke the law.

[DrunkBomber]

You really think this is Bush or Obama's fault?

 

That area has been destabilized so many times that you could argue its Alexander the Great's fault. Or maybe it was the Roman's. As long as religion and politics are intertwined in the middle east there are going to be problems. Those problems just manifest themselves in different ways.

 

Intervening, not intervening, it likely would have made almost no difference. Maybe if the US had just let Saddam take Kuwait and been a counterbalance to Iran there would be less terrorism, but that also means that Saddam would have been allowed to massacre whoever he wanted.

 

I could write another 1,000 pages of "Maybe if" about the Middle East. All of them end pretty much the same way. As long as there is a little piece of land that everyone thinks is magic, there is going to be fighting, because unfortunately you cant just offer normal solutions when everyone wants "magic" land, and they all believe only one very specific spot is "magic."

Im not blaming them for thousands of years of Holy Wars. Im blaming them for our unnecessary involvement in said Holy Wars.

[pettie4sox]

Im not blaming them for thousands of years of Holy Wars. Im blaming them for our unnecessary involvement in said Holy Wars.

 

Well blame their predecessors too man. I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying, but U.S. presidents have been f***ing with the middle east since the creation of Israel.

 

Trump or Clinton will continue that beat as well.

[Soxbadger]

Im not blaming them for thousands of years of Holy Wars. Im blaming them for our unnecessary involvement in said Holy Wars.

 

So what is your pan? Should Obama just have let Isis shred through Iraq after Bush spent so much money/time/lives taking Iraq? Should Bush have just let Iraq go to hell after his father spent money/time/lives trying to stop it?

 

We can sit on our pretty continent and stick our head in the sand while the rest of the world tears itself to apart. We can intervene. But none of it is going to make a hill of beans difference until people stop believing in "magic" land.

 

And that includes our country, because in our country we still fight over what a "magic" book says.

 

Its just tiring to pretend that isnt the reality.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Soxbadger

[StrangeSox]

Well blame their predecessors too man. I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying, but U.S. presidents have been f***ing with the middle east since the creation of Israel.

 

Trump or Clinton will continue that beat as well.

 

We can go back to at least partially blaming the British and French post-WWI when the Ottoman Empire collapsed. The Sykes-Picot agreement has left us with a pretty strong legacy of s***.

 

http://www.thetower.org/article/the-map-th...he-middle-east/

[pettie4sox]

So what is your pan? Should Obama just have let Isis shred through Iraq after Bush spent so much money/time/lives taking Iraq? Should Bush have just let Iraq go to hell after his father spent money/time/lives trying to stop it?

 

We can sit on our pretty continent and stick our head in the sand while the rest of the world tears itself to apart. We can intervene. But none of it is going to make a hill of beans difference until people stop believing in "magic" land.

 

And that includes our country, because in our country we still fight over what a "magic" book says.

 

Its just tiring to pretend that isnt the reality.

 

I firmly believe if you got rid of religion in the world, that would end a good majority of conflict.

 

Outlaw it for the good of mankind!

Edited September 19, 2016 by pettie4sox

[StrangeSox]

Eh the Syrian conflict is a huge pot of issues. Some of it's religious sectional violence and certainly the Isis aspect is, but some of it's ethnic and some of it's just sick of being under a brutal dictator for decades.

[Soxbadger]

Eh the Syrian conflict is a huge pot of issues. Some of it's religious sectional violence and certainly the Isis aspect is, but some of it's ethnic and some of it's just sick of being under a brutal dictator for decades.

 

Of course every issue has its nuances, but the main players take their sides based on religion. Not saying that is all the problems, but its the main problem you cant solve through rational discussion.

[bmags]

But that's part of the complicated s***storm--we don't actually like Assad's regime and have been actively trying to undermine it for years now. Whatever the US is doing in Syria, playing nice with Assad isn't really in the cards in the long-run. They're trying to back anti-Assad, anti-Isis forces. Russia's doing just the opposite for their own reasons, as are the Turks. When the Russians started their campaign in Syria, they were frequently bombing anti-Assad rebels rather than ISIS. Turkey's launched attacks against Kurdish groups.

 

 

The "unforeseen consequences of entering conflict are almost always worse than the known consequences of inaction" was my philosophy for a while but nothing has challenged it more than Syria.

 

I read the sleepwalkers a year ago, about WW1. It was great, but with distance you sit there incredulous like "they are going bonkers over Serbia?". But it's really hard to just look at a country like syria that has the possibilities of

a) Having a gigantic massacre and then brutal dictatorship installed by Assad

b) Toppling assad and having a vacuum of nihilistic terror groups get territory holds

c) Basically force some questionably moderate group of rebels into power despite no powerbase

d) Just hope that a ceasefire lasts and see what is possible politically

 

D is only possible by showing A that he can't win easily. And I think D may be right, but for US, it's hard to see how A is that consequential except for morally.

 

I have no idea.

[DrunkBomber]

I firmly believe if you got rid of religion in the world, that would end a good majority of conflict.

 

Outlaw it for the good of mankind!

Im certainly not opposed to blaming Bill Clinton, Bush 41 and Reagan as well.

[Soxbadger]

Im certainly not opposed to blaming Bill Clinton, Bush 41 and Reagan as well.

 

Then what is the point of this discussion?

 

 

 

 

[DrunkBomber]

Then what is the point of this discussion?

Db you've brought up the Syrian thing a couple of times, what are your thoughts on that issue? The us has been funding and supplying anti assad forces for years now, so while it does complicate things with Russia, it's not exactly a new turn.

 

Clearly not reading comprehension

[Soxbadger]

Clearly not reading comprehension

 

You forget you were the one who mentioned it first?

 

Yesterday our military ACCIDENTALLY bombed the Syrian Army who is fighting AGAINST Isis, which also is causing huge issues with Russia.

 

Again, what is the point? Being snippy wont win a lot of arguments.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Soxbadger

[DrunkBomber]

You forget you were the one who mentioned it first?

 

 

 

Again, what is the point? Being snippy wont win a lot of arguments.

All I brought up was that our military accidentally bombed the Syrian Army killing dozens of soldiers who are fighting AGAINST Isis. I was asked about what I would do in Syria to which I said I have no idea.

[southsider2k5]

All I brought up was that our military accidentally bombed the Syrian Army killing dozens of soldiers who are fighting AGAINST Isis. I was asked about what I would do in Syria to which I said I have no idea.

 

Don't you know in order to question the death of innocents, you have to have a doctoral thesis ready to go?

[caulfield12]

These threads are starting to motivate me even more to send in my Iowa absentee ballot from China for Hillary.

 

No, she hasn't articulated well her reasons for seeking office, and it seemed like she was just hoping to run out the clock like UNC with their four corners offense, but when every day brings about another police shooting and/or sorority girls from KSU thinking it's cute to dress up in blackface and use the N word...the idea that Trump has the capacity and compassion to change America for the better is just anathema.

 

Everything he has ever done was to serve his own best interests, or, basically, his corporation's. His children are exactly the same. Calm and poised they are not. Ivanka even got rattled by questioning from a Cosmo reporter. And she's supposedly the best and brightest of the bunch. When you deliberately lie about the president's birth certificate for years on end...what possible defensible reason is there for doing that, or deliberately mis-stating his religion?

 

The worst part is I'm convinced 90% of American history and govn't teachers have better grasp of foreign/domestic/public policy...I just wish he was debating with Bill Clinton instead next Monday night.

Edited September 19, 2016 by caulfield12

[DrunkBomber]

lol youre barking up the wrong tree if you thing Im going to defend Trump. He's said and done plenty of stuff that warrants these attacks. I just think people focusing on the pettier stuff like his taxes and birther is a poor approach because of reasons Ive stated in the other thread. There is plenty of stuff to go at Trump for that is a lot more important than that stuff.

[caulfield12]

You forget you were the one who mentioned it first?

 

 

 

Again, what is the point? Being snippy wont win a lot of arguments.

 

This just in...we also accidentally shot Pat Tillman, too, and deliberately covered it up.

 

That, and the "enhanced interrogation/rendition protocols" are 1000x worse than an accidental bombing or human error.

 

Abu Ghraib ring a bell?

 

Talk about losses of America's cloak of morality, justice and righteousness, you can start there.

 

Guantanamo Bay, for good measure.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Classifying the Syrian Army as "innocents" is stepping into a pretty awful moral minefield.