2016 Democratic Thread

[brett05]

Man, Trump is completely incapable of actually handling someone one on one? That's not really a good quality in a leader.

 

Not the same thing, but I am sure you know that already.

 

 

online polls rushed by /pol/ and r/the_donald are the true indicator of the political atmosphere of this country!

Yes because they would ignore CNN and all those polls had similar vote counts and leads...Oh wait...

[Jenksismyhero]

Yeah, that's a huge component of it. The whole "welfare queen" myth and everything. Those people get all that free goody stuff, us people are just trying to scrape by and get hardly anything from the government at all.

 

Yeah, no one's saying that here. We're saying that blacks vote for Democrats and their position in society has not changed for decades. So why do they keep voting for the same types of people promoting the same types of policies that don't work or are never enacted.

[Jenksismyhero]

Running on a platform to solve the city's issues doesnt seem like a problem to me. What's exactly stopping those things from coming to fruition? Or were they just flat out lying in your opinion?

 

I dunno, but it's not Republicans! That's the point.

[StrangeSox]

There are different groups of Democrats within Chicago who live in different parts of the city who want different things and vote for different Democratic candidates. They don't all come from some generic Democrat factory.

 

Take Rhode Island, for example. The state is dominated top to bottom by the Democratic Party, but what that really means is that everyone, even very conservative candidates, runs as a Democrat. Same thing in the South until the political realignment of the 60's-70's: being a Republican was absolutely toxic, so we had plenty of conservatives running as Democrats (and liberals as Republicans in the north like George Romney and Rockefeller).

Edited September 27, 2016 by StrangeSox

[illinilaw08]

I dunno, but it's not Republicans! That's the point.

 

This is infuriating. What policies on a national level is the Republican party offering to help African American communities? There are none. They want less funding for public schools, less funding for public transportation, less social safety nets, to keep the status quo on healthcare and college, and they refuse to acknowledge the systematic racism that exists in this country that is still impacting poor inner city communities.

 

The, welp, why don't they give the Republicans a try argument has no basis in fact because they have no policies at a national level geared toward helping African American communities.

[StrangeSox]

And every time you draw your own moral red lines instead of approaching the facts presenting your argument gets weaker. But hey keep talking about how black communities don't listen to Republicans in areas where Republicans don't even exist. If you keep repeating yourself and your argument will get stronger.

 

It's not my argument to make as to why the "free stuff" argument is, at best, incredibly tone-deaf and explains why the black community hears what conservatives are saying and runs from them. Go find black and minority sources aka listen to what they have to say.

[StrangeSox]

This is infuriating. What policies on a national level is the Republican party offering to help African American communities? There are none. They want less funding for public schools, less funding for public transportation, less social safety nets, to keep the status quo on healthcare and college, and they refuse to acknowledge the systematic racism that exists in this country that is still impacting poor inner city communities.

 

The, welp, why don't they give the Republicans a try argument has no basis in fact because they have no policies at a national level geared toward helping African American communities.

 

It also assumes some sort of weird force field where Democrats are able to actively keep black people from hearing Republicans. They can hear Republicans, and they hear their message loud and clear. They reject it in almost total unity.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah, no one's saying that here. We're saying that blacks vote for Democrats and their position in society has not changed for decades. So why do they keep voting for the same types of people promoting the same types of policies that don't work or are never enacted.

 

Maybe you should listen to them? Cause seriously you ask the question, get an answer and then basically say "Well no."

 

And also maybe rethink the whole "it cant be any worse" or "their position hasnt changed."

 

You have to remember that for a good part of American history, things were tangibly "worse" for black people. Slavery, disenfranchisement are just the tip of the iceberg. People are so disconnected that they actually think police shooting black people is a new thing. When the reality is, it just now is being caught on camera.

 

So when you say "its not any better", you are just completely writing off their opinions for your own opinion. Just cause Donald says it, doesnt mean its true. Now maybe things arent great in the inner cities, maybe they could be better, but you dont hear a lot of "Damn I wish we could go back in time to when it was better."

 

That is why its hollow. Because maybe things arent amazing, but they realize that things could be a lot worse.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Soxbadger

[NorthSideSox72]

So here's an irony.

 

It is state-level Republicans, in heavily blue Illinois, who have a really clear path to how some of their policies may in fact be best for poor communities. They are the ones trying to get the state budget under control, in a state which needs exactly that moreso than possibly any other. There's a path to relevance in a dead-blue state available to them, if they focused their budgeting cutting scissors on the right areas to get the state to where they can afford everything it needs.

 

Instead, for reasons inexplicable to me, their favorite target seems to be schools of all things. Shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[StrangeSox]

So here's an irony.

 

It is state-level Republicans, in heavily blue Illinois, who have a really clear path to how some of their policies may in fact be best for poor communities. They are the ones trying to get the state budget under control, in a state which needs exactly that moreso than possibly any other. There's a path to relevance in a dead-blue state available to them, if they focused their budgeting cutting scissors on the right areas to get the state to where they can afford everything it needs.

 

Instead, for reasons inexplicable to me, their favorite target seems to be schools of all things. Shooting themselves in the foot.

 

Opposition to public unions which are still a strong if fading backbone of Democratic political organizing is at least part of the reason. Another part is likely general anti-public/pro-private ideology.

[StrangeSox]

Yes because they would ignore CNN and all those polls had similar vote counts and leads...Oh wait...

 

CNN and the multiple other legit polls aren't online self-selected response polls that can be rushed by internet mobs and are meaningless. Those sorts of polls are how Stephen Colbert got bridges in eastern europe and part of the space station named after himself, but they aren't statistically valid polls of a sample of the population that you can extrapolate to the population at large.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yep, you're right guys. Why try anything different. Dem policies are totally working. At least they aren't slaves! Could be worse!

[brett05]

CNN and the multiple other legit polls aren't online self-selected response polls that can be rushed by internet mobs and are meaningless. Those sorts of polls are how Stephen Colbert got bridges in eastern europe and part of the space station named after himself, but they aren't statistically valid polls of a sample of the population that you can extrapolate to the population at large.

Whatever helps you thru a Clinton loss. Her only hope now is to get Trump to implode.

[StrangeSox]

I am sorry you never took a basic stats class, but that is actually how statistical sampling works. I don't like seeing people fooled by flim-flam nonsense so please take that lesson to heart.

[StrangeSox]

Ford is not taking kindly to Trump's claims about them in the debate yesterday.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/15/news/compa...jobs/index.html

[NorthSideSox72]

Whatever helps you thru a Clinton loss. Her only hope now is to get Trump to implode.

I trust souces like 538, who actually understand statistical modeling. They found only 2 polls that were actual samplings - meaning, not some website with a click poll (which are hilariously useless). The CNN one, where Clinton won by a huge margin, and a PPP one where Clinton won but by a slim margin. The PPP one was also better at representative sampling across parties. Those were the only debate "winner" polls that even came out. So I have zero idea where you are getting some other idea of Trump "winning" from.

 

That all said, none of this matters much. What matters is where the polls are in a week, in those few key battleground states. Everything else is noise.

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

Whatever helps you thru a Clinton loss. Her only hope now is to get Trump to implode.

 

Have you ever seen someone at a debate so rattled? Trump had his jimmies rustled big time. He was barely even able to form a coherent thought in the back half of the debate.

 

Do you have any scientific polls to back up your position that he won?

[StrangeSox]

I trust souces like 538, who actually understand statistical modeling. They found only 2 polls that were actual samplings - meaning, not some website with a click poll (which are hilariously useless). The CNN one, where Clinton won by a huge margin, and a PPP one where Clinton won but by a slim margin. The PPP one was also better at representative sampling across parties. Those were the only debate "winner" polls that even came out. So I have zero idea where you are getting some other idea of Trump "winning" from.

 

That all said, none of this matters much. What matters is where the polls are in a week, in those few key battleground states. Everything else is noise.

 

538 is decent, but Nate Silver's been tweaking his model an awful lot this year. I've linked to it in the Republican thread, but I like the NYT's The Upshot "Who Will Be President" page because they summarize the current national and state-level polling not just for their own models but for several of the main aggregators including 538.

[bmags]

I think the disconnect is the possibility that maybe black americans vote democrat because they prefer democratic policies, and not because some singular group called "democrats" offer them "Free stuff" in exchange for power.

 

This reminds me of when Rand Paul went to Howard and asked "Were you all even aware that the NAACP was founded by Republicans?" and the crowd screamed "YES" and he winces "oh, okay, well, a lot of people don't know!"

 

 

 

 

[RockRaines]

Yep, you're right guys. Why try anything different. Dem policies are totally working. At least they aren't slaves! Could be worse!

It would be great if there were other policies in Chicago that would work to fix really the same things that have been broken for decades. Real estate is up, construction is up, business are moving back into the city, all good changes. However the schools still suck, crime is still bad, shootings are up, bureaucracy and unions still bleed the coffers dry and many social and financial issues are still the same.

 

Fixing the school system and its funding is very simple, but nobody in their right mind in any party is willing to entertain that notion because they wont be in office for long. Everyone wants better infrastructure, schools and policing but nobody wants to pay for it. Its been that way in Chicago as long as I've been alive.

 

Meanwhile outside of the city.....

[Soxbadger]

Yep, you're right guys. Why try anything different. Dem policies are totally working. At least they aren't slaves! Could be worse!

 

Do you even realize how condescending you sound when you speak about other peoples issues?

 

 

First of all as I said previously, it can be worse. So when you start "It cant be worse", you show a complete lack of understanding of their issue. Second, you have no connection to the inner city, so there is an actual legitimate question of if you even know what they are looking for.

 

So again, it comes off as a hollow because it's someone else telling them what to do, as if they cant think for themselves. If they want to be Democrats/Republicans or whatever that is their choice. If you want to try and convince people to join your side, you should probably articulate how your side is actually going to improve their lot in life. Merely saying "its not good right now" does nothing. If anything it shows how little you think of them.

 

 

[bmags]

Clinton also missed a big opportunity after Trump bs'd about solar to talk about how solar prices continue to plunge and it created a 20% increase yoy in new jobs created. Solar tech helped soak up the blow that could have turned us into recession after oil drop killed houston/dakotas.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Wow. I am not sure who this was directed at but this is just sad. Your condescension knows no bounds.

 

If you weren't following the conversation, then how do you know if the condescension was undeserved?

[StrangeSox]

That all said, none of this matters much. What matters is where the polls are in a week, in those few key battleground states. Everything else is noise.

 

First polls with entirely post-debate samples will start coming out Friday with most coming out early next week.

[StrangeSox]

rabbit please put me on ignore if you can't help whining about me regularly.