2016 Democratic Thread

[caulfield12]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-...sault/91657736/

Story to get Greg's blood boiling

 

 

 

Expect Trump to seize on this Chicago non-shooting...female officer feared Ferguson Effect, didn't shoot and severely beaten

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning...-chief/?ref=yfp

Edited October 7, 2016 by caulfield12

[RockRaines]

See this post really gives the impression that you don't really understand. You seem to think or at least thought that us dismissing the online polls was wishful thinking, that Trump actually won that debate and that the election is his for the taking.

Delusion is pretty wide spread on things like this, luckily we get to see it first hand.

[caulfield12]

It's interesting now that because Trump interrupted Clinton about as many times as Kaine interrupted Pence, they're somehow equated as being equivalent victories for the "interruptee" when the VP debate was more or less a draw or slight victory to the GOP perception-wise.

[NorthSideSox72]

Married people should not get special privilege.

On this I actually agree with you. I don't think the government should have any connection with marriage. It's a social construct. If you were to start a new country, for me, that's the way I'd do it. No government involvement in that.

 

However, it is now so intertwined with taxes, health care and other things, that unwinding it is basically impossible. Which is why I think you need to err on the side of freedom when there's a choice to be made, which is (along with simply favoring love over exclusion) why I am in favor of same sex marriage.

 

[StrangeSox]

Speaking of local elections, the Cook County clerks office has put together "starter packs" to help encourage and guide people who might want to run for local offices.

 

http://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/10-6-...ing-candidates/

 

It helps them identify what offices they may be eligible for, and it helps them through the paperwork process.

[brett05]

See this post really gives the impression that you don't really understand. You seem to think or at least thought that us dismissing the online polls was wishful thinking, that Trump actually won that debate and that the election is his for the taking.

I have stated that Hillary won the debate. Joe American thinks Trump has. Trump's only goal was to look Presidential and for the most part he did that. This Sunday will be very interesting as Trump continues to close leads on Hillary.

[brett05]

On this I actually agree with you. I don't think the government should have any connection with marriage. It's a social construct. If you were to start a new country, for me, that's the way I'd do it. No government involvement in that.

 

However, it is now so intertwined with taxes, health care and other things, that unwinding it is basically impossible. Which is why I think you need to err on the side of freedom when there's a choice to be made, which is (along with simply favoring love over exclusion) why I am in favor of same sex marriage.

Would it take some work? Yes. And the government should do exactly that IMO.

[brett05]

That's a quality flip flop.

based on your response I am positive you don't know what that means.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I have stated that Hillary won the debate. Joe American thinks Trump has.

 

According to the (valid) polls, Joe American thought Clinton was handily.

 

Trump's only goal was to look Presidential and for the most part he did that. This Sunday will be very interesting as Trump continues to close leads on Hillary.

 

He didn't look Presidential and Clinton's lead is growing.

 

...maybe you are Greg.

[NorthSideSox72]

I have stated that Hillary won the debate. Joe American thinks Trump has. Trump's only goal was to look Presidential and for the most part he did that. This Sunday will be very interesting as Trump continues to close leads on Hillary.

If you turn Joe American into Joe and Mary American, the majority of them clearly thought Clinton won.

 

Also LOL at "Trump continues to close leads on Hillary". You're about 2 months behind. Clinton has been running away with it lately (though of course that could change). Trump has to try to stop the bleeding. His electoral math, right now, looks really, really tough.

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

based on your response I am positive you don't know what that means.

 

You spent post after post defending those polls as quality indicators of Trump winning the debate.

In your last post, you said you knew they were garbage, but were only trying to be technically correct that Trump won the most polls.

 

That's a flip-flop.

[pettie4sox]

brett05

 

Would Trump be your first choice for president?

 

Who would have you preferred?

[StrangeSox]

I have stated that Hillary won the debate. Joe American thinks Trump has. Trump's only goal was to look Presidential and for the most part he did that. This Sunday will be very interesting as Trump continues to close leads on Hillary.

 

No. No no no no no. That is exactly the point. Actual, legitimate polls show that "Joe American" thinks Clinton won the debate handily. Only garbage online polls had Trump winning, and again the legitimate polls found that people absolutely did not think he looked Presidential. You're still not showing that you actually understand the problem with the online polls you keep referring to.

 

And as NSS pointed out, he's not leading in the polls. He's losing--bigly. He was losing by a little less in mid-September, but Clinton's reopened her large lead.

[lostfan]

Who is "Joe American" supposed to be? Mostly white dudes and some white women from non-coastal areas? They don't dictate the terms of presidential elections anymore. That's in part what the Trump phenomenon is all about.

 

It's like when people say "real America" all derisively. I know people like to hate on California and the east coast (I know, I live on the east coast and I hate them too) but that's where half the country's population lives. There's no such thing as someone who's more authentically American.

[bmags]

I am Joe America and so can you

[illinilaw08]

Would it take some work? Yes. And the government should do exactly that IMO.

 

I don't think you understand how much that would cost. The tax code, health care, probate, the bankruptcy code (just off the top of my head) would all need to be changed to accommodate that. And sometimes, the laws regarding married couples make sense! Take the probate code for instance. If you are married and don't have a will, your estate passes to your spouse. That makes sense!

 

It's easier to just understand and recognize the distinction. The State is involved with marriage. So are different churches. The State cannot mandate that the Catholic Church perform the sacrament of marriage between two guys, two gals, or even two people who haven't gone through all the hoops the Catholic Church makes people jump through before they will allow the marriage to take place. By the same token, however, the State cannot deny the equal protection of the law to same sex couples.

 

It would be quite dumb to take all the time and expense necessary to change all the laws just because a certain portion of the population can't recognize the distinction between marriage, the religious sacrament, and marriage the civil contract.

 

[brett05]

You spent post after post defending those polls as quality indicators of Trump winning the debate.

In your last post, you said you knew they were garbage, but were only trying to be technically correct that Trump won the most polls.

 

That's a flip-flop.

strawman all you wish

[brett05]

brett05

 

Would Trump be your first choice for president?

 

Who would have you preferred?

My first choice died fast...Scott Walker. My second choice was Ted Cruz. If Condoleezza Rice ran or was the VP this would be all over. She'd be my #1

[brett05]

No. No no no no no. That is exactly the point. Actual, legitimate polls show that "Joe American" thinks Clinton won the debate handily. Only garbage online polls had Trump winning, and again the legitimate polls found that people absolutely did not think he looked Presidential. You're still not showing that you actually understand the problem with the online polls you keep referring to.

 

And as NSS pointed out, he's not leading in the polls. He's losing--bigly. He was losing by a little less in mid-September, but Clinton's reopened her large lead.

At one point in the past three weeks Trump was leading the Electoral College. He has since the past couple of days closed up some races.

[brett05]

I don't think you understand how much that would cost. The tax code, health care, probate, the bankruptcy code (just off the top of my head) would all need to be changed to accommodate that. And sometimes, the laws regarding married couples make sense! Take the probate code for instance. If you are married and don't have a will, your estate passes to your spouse. That makes sense!

 

It's easier to just understand and recognize the distinction. The State is involved with marriage. So are different churches. The State cannot mandate that the Catholic Church perform the sacrament of marriage between two guys, two gals, or even two people who haven't gone through all the hoops the Catholic Church makes people jump through before they will allow the marriage to take place. By the same token, however, the State cannot deny the equal protection of the law to same sex couples.

 

It would be quite dumb to take all the time and expense necessary to change all the laws just because a certain portion of the population can't recognize the distinction between marriage, the religious sacrament, and marriage the civil contract.

No, what is dumb is that the government is involved in this at all.

[CrimsonWeltall]

strawman all you wish

 

What did I get wrong?

[NorthSideSox72]

At one point in the past three weeks Trump was leading the Electoral College. He has since the past couple of days closed up some races.

 

I've literally never seen a day when that was true - that he was leading in the electoral college. The toss-up states were, at one point, in a place where if Trump got ALL of them, he'd have a lead. That's the best position he has been in, and he isn't there anymore.

 

No, what is dumb is that the government is involved in this at all.

 

Yes, but they are. So you want to spend ridiculous amounts of money and create a gigantic issue out of it now? Congress can't even tie their shoes properly, and you want to hand them this mess?

 

[StrangeSox]

I don't think you understand how much that would cost. The tax code, health care, probate, the bankruptcy code (just off the top of my head) would all need to be changed to accommodate that. And sometimes, the laws regarding married couples make sense! Take the probate code for instance. If you are married and don't have a will, your estate passes to your spouse. That makes sense!

 

It's easier to just understand and recognize the distinction. The State is involved with marriage. So are different churches. The State cannot mandate that the Catholic Church perform the sacrament of marriage between two guys, two gals, or even two people who haven't gone through all the hoops the Catholic Church makes people jump through before they will allow the marriage to take place. By the same token, however, the State cannot deny the equal protection of the law to same sex couples.

 

It would be quite dumb to take all the time and expense necessary to change all the laws just because a certain portion of the population can't recognize the distinction between marriage, the religious sacrament, and marriage the civil contract.

 

Right, marriage the civil contract is just a big bundle of stuff that you'd otherwise have to do piecemeal and for a lot more money and time.

[illinilaw08]

No, what is dumb is that the government is involved in this at all.

 

Marriage as a social construct makes sense though, whatever name you decide to give that construct. It allows the government to tax households rather than individuals. It sets up an easy mechanism for group health insurance. It makes the process by which property transfers from a decedent's estate much simpler. It makes a simple mechanism for pooling and discharging debt. Not to mention the fact that the marriage industry is a multi-billion dollar industry which is good for the economy.

 

So, let me ask you this - do you have an issue with the government being involved in co-habitation? Do you have an issue with people who are not religious making civil commitments to one another? If the answer to both those questions is "no," then your issue is exclusively with the name that the state attaches to that contract.

[StrangeSox]

At one point in the past three weeks Trump was leading the Electoral College. He has since the past couple of days closed up some races.

In Nate Silver's panic-driven forecast for a very brief period, but in the rest of the aggregators, he wasn't. The last couple of days have had increasingly good polls for Clinton, and really the last couple of weeks have pushed her back into the 75%+ column in all of the aggregators.