2016 Democratic Thread

[StrangeSox]

I agree it was inappropriate for a President to do. I agree he's a petty, thin-skinned baby.

 

These tweets, however, are not anything close advocating violence or suggesting to his followers that they shut him, and others like him, up.

 

Yes, but he has a cult of personality and he knows how his supporters have responding to any of his critics, especially ones he names himself, before. That is the whole point that you keep missing--he doesn't need to explicitly call for violence or for anyone to shut his critics up. All he has to do is drop that garbage out there, his supporters will do what they do, and then people will give him all sorts of plausible deniability cover.

 

You're free to argue that you don't think Trump will go down the authoritarian path or that something will prevent him from going down it, but you can't deny that this is how authoritarians work in the real world. There are far too many examples. Go check out the story about the Philippines I posted earlier--plenty of extrajudicial mobs doing the killing along with the police, and Trump has said he has no problem with this while reiterating his racist anti-immigrant platform:

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/d...s-a7460801.html

 

When a reporter suggested his bombast echoed the rhetoric employed by Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte, Mr Trump was unfazed and instead pointed to the activities of drug dealers killed extrajudicially in the country.

 

"Well, hey, look, this is bad stuff," he said. "They slice them up, they carve their initials in the girl’s forehead, OK. What are we supposed to do? Be nice about it?"

 

They come from Central America. They’re tougher than any people you’ve ever met. They’re killing and raping everybody out there. They’re illegal. And they are finished.

Edited December 8, 2016 by StrangeSox

[lostfan]

Wait, so a President can never respond to criticism? And he's advocating violence?

Really he shouldn't, that level of think-skinnedness is a really bad look on a president. There's other things he ought to be worried about (put your goddamn phone down and go to some intelligence briefings for f***'s sake, for starters)

[Jenksismyhero]

Really he shouldn't, that level of think-skinnedness is a really bad look on a president. There's other things he ought to be worried about (put your goddamn phone down and go to some intelligence briefings for f***'s sake, for starters)

 

That is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times more worrisome to me than Trump being vocal about the criticism he receives.

[lostfan]

That is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times more worrisome to me than Trump being vocal about the criticism he receives.

It's part and parcel though. It's the same issue.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Wait, so a President can never respond to criticism? And he's advocating violence?

 

The criticism was that Trump lied about the details of the deal.

 

Trump didn't respond to that criticism. He basically said "f*** that guy. He sucks and his union sucks."

[StrangeSox]

That is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times more worrisome to me than Trump being vocal about the criticism he receives.

 

Trump being this vocal about any form of criticism makes future criticism less likely or at least softer and possibly anonymous out of fear of retribution which lessens checks on his power. I'm going to say it again until it sinks in, this is how authoritarians work. Unless you like authoritarians, this behavior should be very concerning.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, but he has a cult of personality and he knows how his supporters have responding to any of his critics, especially ones he names himself, before. That is the whole point that you keep missing--he doesn't need to explicitly call for violence or for anyone to shut his critics up. All he has to do is drop that garbage out there, his supporters will do what they do, and then people will give him all sorts of plausible deniability cover.

 

You're free to argue that you don't think Trump will go down the authoritarian path or that something will prevent him from going down it, but you can't deny that this is how authoritarians work in the real world. There are far too many examples. Go check out the story about the Philippines I posted earlier--plenty of extrajudicial mobs doing the killing along with the police, and Trump has said he has no problem with this while reiterating his racist anti-immigrant platform:

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/d...s-a7460801.html

 

You're taking a huge leap in logic though that criticizing someone publicly means you're secretly telling your followers to lynch him. Apparently Clinton is responsible for that bombing at a Trump campaign office because she was so anti-Trump and instilled fear in her followers that a Trump Presidency would destroy the country.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

It's part and parcel though. It's the same issue.

 

Not really. One concerns his attempt to quiet his critics and become Hitler 2.0 (SS just come out and say it). The other concerns his propensity to put his reality star narcissism over national security/governance.

[Jenksismyhero]

Trump being this vocal about any form of criticism makes future criticism less likely or at least softer and possibly anonymous out of fear of retribution which lessens checks on his power. I'm going to say it again until it sinks in, this is how authoritarians work. Unless you like authoritarians, this behavior should be very concerning.

 

Where is your proof of this? He's been doing this crap for 2 years and criticism of him has INCREASED, not decreased.

Edited December 8, 2016 by JenksIsMyHero

[BigSqwert]

Labor Sec nominee Puzder

 

- opposes minimum wage increases

- opposes extending overtime protections

- supports replacing workers w/ machines

 

So many disenfranchised, white lower and middle-class folks got suckered by crooked Donnie.

[lostfan]

Not really. One concerns his attempt to quiet his critics and become Hitler 2.0 (SS just come out and say it). The other concerns his propensity to put his reality star narcissism over national security/governance.

I'm not going all the way with the Hitler stuff but that behavior, being wholly incapable of letting even minor criticism slide, is vintage Trump. It's not going to chance once he's sworn in. It's not a good thing for a president to be doing either, especially one with weirdo asshole cult-like followers as this one, who take their own conspiracy theories at face value.

[illinilaw08]

You're taking a huge leap in logic though that criticizing someone publicly means you're secretly telling your followers to lynch him. Apparently Clinton is responsible for that bombing at a Trump campaign office because she was so anti-Trump and instilled fear in her followers that a Trump Presidency would destroy the country.

 

I don't think it even needs to go that far though. The fact that this guy has received threats should be enough to make Trump step back and put away the phone. Trump probably doesn't intend for his supporters to attack this guy over social media, but that's the impact of his actions. If Trump doesn't see that, that reflects poorly on him. If he does see that and continues to call out individuals who disagree with him via social media, then that's probably worse.

[StrangeSox]

You're taking a huge leap in logic though that criticizing someone publicly means you're secretly telling your followers to lynch him. Apparently Clinton is responsible for that bombing at a Trump campaign office because she was so anti-Trump and instilled fear in her followers that a Trump Presidency would destroy the country.

 

It was entirely predictable that Trump calling out this individual would mean that his supporters harass him. Will you keep making this same excuse the next several dozen times it happens?

 

Not really. One concerns his attempt to quiet his critics and become Hitler 2.0 (SS just come out and say it). The other concerns his propensity to put his reality star narcissism over national security/governance.

 

Not every authoritarian was Hitler, but we have had many authoritarians follow a similar script of silencing critics to what Trump is doing now.

 

Where is your proof of this? He's been doing this crap for 2 years and criticism of him has INCREASED, not decreased.

 

My proof is how this plays out with many other authoritarians and authoritarian regimes around the world. And, prior to a month ago, he was still largely seen as a completely unfit and ridiculous if awful clown who would soon stop being the focus of the media. He's now going to be the President of the United States for the next four to eight years and has set about confirming all of the worst impressions of him daily since he won the election.

Edited December 8, 2016 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't think it even needs to go that far though. The fact that this guy has received threats should be enough to make Trump step back and put away the phone. Trump probably doesn't intend for his supporters to attack this guy over social media, but that's the impact of his actions. If Trump doesn't see that, that reflects poorly on him. If he does see that and continues to call out individuals who disagree with him via social media, then that's probably worse.

 

Didn't Trump and his supporters get death threats over the internet during the campaign? Shouldn't Clinton and her team have done the same thing, put away their phones? Where was the outcry that she was starting her own authoritarian regime?

 

At some point we just have to accept there are morons in the world. And those morons are given anonymous platforms on the internet to say stupid s***. That doesn't mean the person they support is becoming a dictator or showing signs of wanting to be one. That's just conspiracy theory nonsense.

[Jenksismyhero]

It was entirely predictable that Trump calling out this individual would mean that his supporters harass him. Will you keep making this same excuse the next several dozen times it happens?

 

 

 

Not every authoritarian was Hitler, but we have had many authoritarians follow a similar script of silencing critics to what Trump is doing now.

 

 

 

My proof is how this plays out with many other authoritarians and authoritarian regimes around the world. And, prior to a month ago, he was still largely seen as a completely unfit and ridiculous if awful clown who would soon stop being the focus of the media. He's now going to be the President of the United States for the next four to eight years and has set about confirming all of the worst impressions of him daily since he won the election.

 

Ok, so you have none. That's what I thought.

 

When you have some actual evidence of speech being frozen because of the fear of backlash from Trump, then we can talk about whether he's an authoritarian or beginning down that path.

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't think it even needs to go that far though. The fact that this guy has received threats should be enough to make Trump step back and put away the phone. Trump probably doesn't intend for his supporters to attack this guy over social media, but that's the impact of his actions. If Trump doesn't see that, that reflects poorly on him. If he does see that and continues to call out individuals who disagree with him via social media, then that's probably worse.

 

Hey, I totally agree. There are two arguments here though: (1) Trump doing this just shows what a terrible President he will be and reflects poorly on his decision making, his own understanding of his role and influence, and his life priorities - protecting himself or governing. I totally agree with all of that. (2) Responding to a critic knowing that his supporters will attack the person on social media means he's wielding his power to curb speech, to alter future criticism, all in a move to obtain more power and authority. That is the argument I think is conspiracy level nonsense.

[StrangeSox]

Ok, so you have none. That's what I thought.

 

When you have some actual evidence of speech being frozen because of the fear of backlash from Trump, then we can talk about whether he's an authoritarian or beginning down that path.

 

You're asking me to prove a negative.

 

As evidence, I'll direct you, once again, to the history of how authoritarian regimes operate. You seem like you won't buy anything short of a document stating "I, Donald J. Trump, wish my followers to physically harm and silence my critics" notarized and signed by Trump with a complimentary letter from critics saying "We are now silenced and won't respond," so there's not much point in continuing this discussion.

[StrangeSox]

(2) Responding to a critic knowing that his supporters will attack the person on social media means he's wielding his power to curb speech, to alter future criticism, all in a move to obtain more power and authority. That is the argument I think is conspiracy level nonsense.

 

Regardless of whether Trump is doing it intentionally or not, that's the effect it has. If you see another of his critics have their lives disrupted, you will be less likely to speak out publicly. You haven't explained why it wouldn't have that effect beyond insisting that it wouldn't.

[Jenksismyhero]

You're asking me to prove a negative.

 

As evidence, I'll direct you, once again, to the history of how authoritarian regimes operate. You seem like you won't buy anything short of a document stating "I, Donald J. Trump, wish my followers to physically harm and silence my critics" notarized and signed by Trump with a complimentary letter from critics saying "We are now silenced and won't respond," so there's not much point in continuing this discussion.

 

It's not a negative. You're saying his actions curb speech or will curb speech. Where is the proof of that? Criticism has INCREASED post-election, not decreased.

 

And no, I'm not expecting anything explicit. But you don't have anything more than a guy using twitter to say "nu uh! you're stupid too! and you're bad at your job!" That's so far from actual, legitimate calls for his supporters to attack and suppress speech.

[southsider2k5]

With social media as a big trigger, we have been moving more and more towards mob mentality for politics. Both sides if they don't like something unleash this disgusting stream of hate propaganda and trying to hurt the other side. Don't like someone's politics? Get them fired from their job. Shut down their business. Cyberstalk them.

 

This isn't new to Trump, though he is particularly good at it. Pandora's Box has been open for a while now though.

[Jenksismyhero]

Regardless of whether Trump is doing it intentionally or not, that's the effect it has. If you see another of his critics have their lives disrupted, you will be less likely to speak out publicly. You haven't explained why it wouldn't have that effect beyond insisting that it wouldn't.

 

Says you, without any proof. I don't have to prove it's not going to happen that way when it's your unsupported theory.

[southsider2k5]

It's not a negative. You're saying his actions curb speech or will curb speech. Where is the proof of that? Criticism has INCREASED post-election, not decreased.

 

And no, I'm not expecting anything explicit. But you don't have anything more than a guy using twitter to say "nu uh! you're stupid too! and you're bad at your job!" That's so far from actual, legitimate calls for his supporters to attack and suppress speech.

 

There really is zero argument to this point.

[StrangeSox]

It's not a negative. You're saying his actions curb speech or will curb speech. Where is the proof of that? Criticism has INCREASED post-election, not decreased.

 

And no, I'm not expecting anything explicit. But you don't have anything more than a guy using twitter to say "nu uh! you're stupid too! and you're bad at your job!" That's so far from actual, legitimate calls for his supporters to attack and suppress speech.

 

you're only reiterating that you don't even understand the mechanism at play here.

[illinilaw08]

Didn't Trump and his supporters get death threats over the internet during the campaign? Shouldn't Clinton and her team have done the same thing, put away their phones? Where was the outcry that she was starting her own authoritarian regime?

 

At some point we just have to accept there are morons in the world. And those morons are given anonymous platforms on the internet to say stupid s***. That doesn't mean the person they support is becoming a dictator or showing signs of wanting to be one. That's just conspiracy theory nonsense.

 

There are two important distinctions here. The first is that Trump directly attacked an individual citizen on Twitter - not a political opponent, but an individual citizen who criticized Trump. That's bad for a whole host of reasons. And if Hillary Clinton had done that during her campaign, I'd be more inclined to jump to #bothsides.

 

The second is that Trump didn't respond to what the Carrier Union Leader actually criticized him on. Rather, Trump avoided the issue and went after the guy personally. That's also bad for a whole host of reasons.

 

The thing that shouldn't be lost is the effect this has. If Trump continues to attack individuals who criticize him, and those people get threats from the crazies in the Trump supporter ranks, then Trump's acts have the potential - whether intentional or not - to quiet speech against him. That's not something that we should be taking lightly here...

[StrangeSox]

There really is zero argument to this point.

 

We're talking about an event that happened yesterday (and will likely continue to happen in the future because Republicans nominated and elected an unstable thin-skinned baby to the Presidency) and the impacts it will have going forward. Pointing out that the immediate post-election criticisms of his already-awful decision-making and appointments have increased doesn't say anything about what will be happening a few months or a few years from now.

 

There's also really zero argument that Trump ran as an authoritarian strongman and that this is how authoritarian strongmen operate. Will he turn out to be one? Hope not! But so far all signs point to yes.