2016 Democratic Thread

[cabiness42]

The exact quote is "Well, I would give you, I'd also like to give one bit of advice. Don't go to parties where there's a lot of alcohol. Ok? Don't do that."

 

I'm not sure that I see where it's clear the message is "don't get totally wasted." But rather "don't put yourself around drunk boys."

 

I could defend Kasich by saying that he was giving what he considered to be common sense advice to a student who was particularly concerned about her own safety (and I don't think that would be inappropriate). I could decry his statement by saying he doesn't get to the root cause of the sexual assault problem on college campuses other than to tell women not to go to parties with lots of alcohol, following a decades old stance of victim blaming victims of rape (if she hadn't gone to that alcohol party, she wouldn't have gotten raped).

 

Hopefully Kasich cleans up his message on this point...

 

It's too late. StrangeSox and bmags have already decided exactly what he meant by that. Anything further he says would just be pandering for votes and not actually clarifying what he meant. The only acceptable answer Kasich could have given is that all straight, white Christian males are awful disgusting human beings and should all be thrown in jail just for being who they are. Any other answer is bigoted in some shape or form.

[CrimsonWeltall]

The exact quote is "Well, I would give you, I'd also like to give one bit of advice. Don't go to parties where there's a lot of alcohol. Ok? Don't do that."

 

I'm not sure that I see where it's clear the message is "don't get totally wasted." But rather "don't put yourself around drunk boys."

 

Fair enough. Not being around drunk boys may be part of it, but I took it as primarily about not getting drunk yourself, or as a general notion that parties with a lot of alcohol are more likely to be dangerous situations.

[illinilaw08]

It's too late. StrangeSox and bmags have already decided exactly what he meant by that. Anything further he says would just be pandering for votes and not actually clarifying what he meant. The only acceptable answer Kasich could have given is that all straight, white Christian males are awful disgusting human beings and should all be thrown in jail just for being who they are. Any other answer is bigoted in some shape or form.

 

Well, you have also decided exactly what he means by it, refusing to see any negative subtext in the answer, whether intended by Kasich or not.

[cabiness42]

Well, you have also decided exactly what he means by it, refusing to see any negative subtext in the answer, whether intended by Kasich or not.

 

I've heard him speak on the subject outside of the single quote that was used here to draw conclusions.

[StrangeSox]

No, YOU are projecting that attitude onto Kasich and inciting others to be outraged by it. He didn't say what he didn't say.

He offered the "advice" on sexual assault that women shouldn't go to parties with alcohol. Kasich didn't invent that line of thinking, but it goes back with decades of victim-blaming for sexual assault and rape. Rape and sexual assault are treated differently from other crimes with a lot of the scrutiny going into what the victims or potential victims do that's 'wrong' like how they dress or if they drink alcohol.

 

It's too late. StrangeSox and bmags have already decided exactly what he meant by that. Anything further he says would just be pandering for votes and not actually clarifying what he meant. The only acceptable answer Kasich could have given is that all straight, white Christian males are awful disgusting human beings and should all be thrown in jail just for being who they are. Any other answer is bigoted in some shape or form.

 

Nice meltdown!

 

Alternatively, he could have given the rest of the answer he gave without that last line and it would have been fine.

Edited April 18, 2016 by StrangeSox

[DrunkBomber]

Kasich needs to be better at victim blaming, maybe take a page out of the Clintons playbook.

[cabiness42]

He offered the "advice" on sexual assault that women shouldn't go to parties with alcohol. Kasich didn't event that line of thinking, but it goes back with decades of victim-blaming for sexual assault and rape. Rape and sexual assault are treated differently from other crimes with a lot of the scrutiny going into what the victims or potential victims do that's 'wrong' like how they dress or if they drink alcohol.

 

Alternatively, he could have given the rest of the answer he gave without that last line and it would have been fine.

 

You can call it victim-blaming all you want. It's reality. You are safer if you are not drunk and/or around drunk people. Not just safer from sexual crimes but from non-sexual assault and theft as well. That's a level of safety you can provide yourself that the government can't. Kasich is being irresponsible if he doesn't convey that message to someone who asks him. All the government can do is a bunch of things after the fact (which he did outline). Kasich is not responsible for the context anybody else has used in saying the same or similar things.

 

Immediately after his comments, before that tweet you linked to and went crazy on even got posted, Kasich said this:

I just said be careful where there's alcohol, and the reason why I worry about that is, it obscures the ability of people to seek justice," Kasich said. "It gets to be about he said, she said, and there's alcohol and it creates an inability to find the truth. That has nothing to do with saying that somebody who has been a victim is somehow responsible.

 

But you went ahead and ran with that single line without doing a single second of research to see what else he said.

[StrangeSox]

It's this sort of stuff that comes to mind when someone says women shouldn't go to parties with alcohol as a solution to sexual assault:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-33...omplainant.html

 

http://www.youredm.com/2016/03/22/miami-ju...music-festival/

 

A longer paper on the challenges sexual assault victims face in court, includes specific references to victim-blaming via "s/he shouldn't have been drinking/at that party"

 

It's part of a long, terrible history with sexual assault victims, not just "outrage" at one particular statement.

[StrangeSox]

You can call it victim-blaming all you want. It's reality.

 

It's victim-blaming.

 

You are safer if you are not drunk and/or around drunk people. Not just safer from sexual crimes but from non-sexual assault and theft as well. That's a level of safety you can provide yourself that the government can't.

 

Do we "advise" victims of theft or assault that they shouldn't go to parties, police how they dress etc.? Or do sexual assault victims tend to get a lot more skepticism and scrutiny than victims of other crimes?

 

Kasich is being irresponsible if he doesn't convey that message to someone who asks him. All the government can do is a bunch of things after the fact (which he did outline). Kasich is not responsible for the context anybody else has used in saying the same or similar things.

 

No, victim blaming was not being responsible. Like I said a while back, the problem isn't that he couldn't offer some magical solution as president to prevent sexual assaults, it's that he engaged in a standard victim-blaming trope.

 

Immediately after his comments, before that tweet you linked to and went crazy on even got posted, Kasich said this:

 

But you went ahead and ran with that single line without doing a single second of research to see what else he said.

 

I'm "outraged" and I "went crazy on" the tweet by posting a pretty simple one-sentence post?

 

There wasn't more research to be done. That line is victim-blaming bulls*** and he shouldn't have said it. It doesn't matter if it was surrounded by 1000 words of good thoughts on sexual assault and its prevention, it still deserves to be called out for furthering the victim-blaming culture surrounding sexual assault victims.

Edited April 18, 2016 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

Next time someone wants me to reduce my carbon footprint to stop global warming, I will just accuse them of victim blaming.

[StrangeSox]

Next time someone wants me to reduce my carbon footprint to stop global warming, I will just accuse them of victim blaming.

yeah great comparison, excellent point.

 

Who knew that the idea of "don't blame women for their own sexual assaults because they went to a party with alcohol (gasp!)" would be so controversial?

[cabiness42]

Do we "advise" victims of theft or assault that they shouldn't go to parties, police how they dress etc.? Or do sexual assault victims tend to get a lot more skepticism and scrutiny than victims of other crimes?

 

Kasich isn't responsible for the level of skepticism and scrutiny that is applied to victims of crime (except in his state while he's governor). He's not responsible for what others do and think.

 

And it's not victim-blaming. Saying it 1000 times doesn't make it that. The person who asked the question did not identify herself as a victim. He was answering a question from a single person. His response does not automatically translate to him saying the same thing to a woman who does identify herself as a victim and asks a similar question. Things that are inappropriate to say to a victim are not automatically inappropriate to say to a person who is concerned about preventing herself from becoming a victim.

[cabiness42]

yeah great comparison, excellent point.

 

Who knew that the idea of "don't blame women for their own sexual assaults because they went to a party with alcohol (gasp!)" would be so controversial?

 

It's not controversial. The idea of taking a statement that isn't at all saying that and believing it to mean that is what is controversial.

[StrangeSox]

Kasich isn't responsible for the level of skepticism and scrutiny that is applied to victims of crime (except in his state while he's governor). He's not responsible for what others do and think.

 

He's responsible for what he said, which was a standard victim-blaming line.

 

And it's not victim-blaming. Saying it 1000 times doesn't make it that. The person who asked the question did not identify herself as a victim. He was answering a question from a single person. His response does not automatically translate to him saying the same thing to a woman who does identify herself as a victim and asks a similar question. Things that are inappropriate to say to a victim are not automatically inappropriate to say to a person who is concerned about preventing herself from becoming a victim.

 

Like I said before, you're just being hyper-literal here. If it's victim-blaming to tell a woman who was assaulted afterwards "well, you shouldn't have gone to a party that had alcohol," it's victim-blaming to say the same thing to a woman before she's assaulted. When the statement is made doesn't change how it plays into the routine way that sexual assault victims are scrutinized for their own actions far more than victims of other crimes. If it's good advice to tell women to not go to parties where there's alcohol before anything bad happens, it will impact how a woman who still chooses to go to a party and is assaulted is viewed and treated. How sexual assault victims are treated by our justice system isn't some sort of mystery, this pattern is well-documented.

[bmags]

He may not be responsible, but he does live in a world that already exists. He's either ignorant or malicious and he's running for president so he can be better regardless.

 

But of course, male politicians aren't responsible for the environment they surround themselves in, only sexual assault victims are.

[southsider2k5]

yeah great comparison, excellent point.

 

Who knew that the idea of "don't blame women for their own sexual assaults because they went to a party with alcohol (gasp!)" would be so controversial?

 

It isn't. But it also isn't what was said, so...

[CrimsonWeltall]

yeah great comparison, excellent point.

 

Who knew that the idea of "don't blame women for their own sexual assaults because they went to a party with alcohol (gasp!)" would be so controversial?

 

It's not controversial. It's also not what anyone is arguing about. The argument is whether or not Kasich blamed women for their own sexual assaults in the first place.

[StrangeSox]

It's not controversial. The idea of taking a statement that isn't at all saying that and believing it to mean that is what is controversial.

He suggested that, in order to avoid sexual assault, women shouldn't go to parties with alcohol. If this is widely believed to be good advice and a woman chooses not to heed it, how does she not get viewed negatively and at least partially responsible? The pattern of exactly that happening in pervasive. To borrow a line, you can call it not-victim-blaming all you want, but reality is that this is exactly how it works in practice. It's not always explicit and intentional, but it's driven by repeating the sort of 'advice' Kasich gave.

[StrangeSox]

It's not controversial. It's also not what anyone is arguing about. The argument is whether or not Kasich blamed women for their own sexual assaults in the first place.

Telling women not to go to parties (or drink, or go to clubs, or dress certain ways) puts at least some of the responsibility on the victims whether Kasich intended to or not. And when it comes to sexual assaults, the focus far too often is on what the victims did 'wrong' rather than on what the perpetrators did wrong.

Edited April 18, 2016 by StrangeSox

[cabiness42]

He's responsible for what he said, which was a standard victim-blaming line.

 

 

 

Like I said before, you're just being hyper-literal here. If it's victim-blaming to tell a woman who was assaulted afterwards "well, you shouldn't have gone to a party that had alcohol," it's victim-blaming to say the same thing to a woman before she's assaulted. When the statement is made doesn't change how it plays into the routine way that sexual assault victims are scrutinized for their own actions far more than victims of other crimes. If it's good advice to tell women to not go to parties where there's alcohol before anything bad happens, it will impact how a woman who still chooses to go to a party and is assaulted is viewed and treated. How sexual assault victims are treated by our justice system isn't some sort of mystery, this pattern is well-documented.

 

No, it's not just being literal. As a statement of prevention it's common sense. It's good advice, and I don't buy your argument that his statement impacts how people view and treat victims of sexual assault. People who do that do it because they are horrible people, not because of anything John Kasich said. John Kasich not saying that one line or even replacing that line with a long diatribe about how poorly victims are sometimes treated isn't going to make the assholes any less assholic.

 

The goal here is to reduce sexual assault, and one thing (among many) that helps do that is to warn women about situations where sexual assaults occur. We are doing a disservice to women if we just stick our heads in the sand until after they get assaulted and then do something about it.

Edited April 18, 2016 by HickoryHuskers

[StrangeSox]

No, it's not just being literal. As a statement of prevention it's common sense. It's good advice, and I don't buy your argument that his statement impacts how people view and treat victims of sexual assault. People who do that do it because they are horrible people, not because of anything John Kasich said. John Kasich not saying that one line or even replacing that line with a long diatribe about how poorly victims are sometimes treated isn't going to make the assholes any less assholic.

 

The existence of victim-blaming sexual assault and rape victims is pervasive and well-documented in our justice system and society as a whole. It's not just limited to "horrible people" and "assholes" but is influenced throughout our culture.

 

No, Kasich saying or not saying a thing isn't going to change the whole world, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't still be held accountable for the things he says.

 

The goal here is to reduce sexual assault, and one thing (among many) that helps do that is to warn women about situations where sexual assaults occur. We are doing a disservice to women if we just stick our heads in the sand until after they get assaulted and then do something about it.

 

Kasich didn't just warn women that sexual assaults occur at parties (as if they are not already aware of this!). He advised women not to go to parties where alcohol is served.

 

What other common social activities should women avoid in order to reduce sexual assaults? What clothing should or shouldn't they wear? How much alcohol should they consume? How many people, minimum, should they go out with? Why is it on women to change their lives and not engage in otherwise normal activities rather than on the assaulters?

Edited April 18, 2016 by StrangeSox

[cabiness42]

The existence of victim-blaming sexual assault and rape victims is pervasive and well-documented in our justice system and society as a whole. It's not just limited to "horrible people" and "assholes" but is influenced throughout our culture.

 

No, Kasich saying or not saying a thing isn't going to change the whole world, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't still be held accountable for the things he says.

 

Yes, he should be held accountable. He should be commended for making sure that young women have as much information as possible before making decisions, rather than not saying it because hypocrites on the left will yell and scream about it.

[StrangeSox]

Yes, he should be held accountable. He should be commended for making sure that young women have as much information as possible before making decisions, rather than not saying it because hypocrites on the left will yell and scream about it.

 

I'm glad that John Kasich was there to tell women where sexual assaults occur and advise them to avoid parties with alcohol. Otherwise, they would never have known! This paternalistic attitude definitely does not play into the same issue.

 

Also, "hypocritical," what?

 

And again with the accusations of outrage! yellings! shoutings! going crazy!!!!

Edited April 18, 2016 by StrangeSox

[bmags]

It's pretty clear there would be a lot less sexual assaults if only women had more men telling them how to live their lives correctly. Historically, they are a population that has just been out there, living way too free and clueless the the predatory world surrounding them.

 

God bless you Kasich. You are just the president we need to make america pure again.

[cabiness42]

Kasich didn't just warn women that sexual assaults occur at parties (as if they are not already aware of this!). He advised women not to go to parties where alcohol is served.

 

What other common social activities should women avoid in order to reduce sexual assaults? What clothing should or shouldn't they wear? How much alcohol should they consume? How many people, minimum, should they go out with? Why is it on women to change their lives and not engage in otherwise normal activities rather than on the assaulters?

 

Her question was framed as that of a college student, so as a college student alcohol is the pretty dominant factor in sexual assaults.

 

Also, Kasich isn't telling her she has to change her life, he is answering her question about how she can feel safer. If she follows his advice, she probably will feel safer, but she is an adult and can choose whether or not to follow that advice, and whether or not she follows that advice should have no bearing on how she is treated if she unfortunately does become a victim.

 

Kasich's biggest problem is that when a person asks a question, he answers the question, to the extent that he knows it, in that particular person's context, not paying attention to the fact that his answer will get blown up and generalized to apply to every person in every situation. We aren't used to politicians that don't intend their answers to be extremely applied to every person in every situation.