2016 Democratic Thread

[cabiness42]

It's pretty clear there would be a lot less sexual assaults if only women had more men telling them how to live their lives correctly. Historically, they are a population that has just been out there, living way too free and clueless the the predatory world surrounding them.

 

God bless you Kasich. You are just the president we need to make america pure again.

 

At no point did he make a value judgment. She asked how to feel safer. He gave her a way to feel safer. It wasn't a value judgment about her or alcohol or anything else being correct or not correct.

[StrangeSox]

Her question was framed as that of a college student, so as a college student alcohol is the pretty dominant factor in sexual assaults.

 

Also, Kasich isn't telling her she has to change her life, he is answering her question about how she can feel safer. If she follows his advice, she probably will feel safer, but she is an adult and can choose whether or not to follow that advice, and whether or not she follows that advice should have no bearing on how she is treated if she unfortunately does become a victim.

 

She'd feel safer if she wore a burka to completely avoid risking exciting nearby men and never left the house. That would also be s***ty advice similar to telling college-aged women not to go to routine social functions. Whether or not the advice of "don't go to parties, college-aged women!" should negatively impact views of sexual assault victims isn't really relevant when everything we know about how sexual assault victims are treated by the justice system says that it does.

 

Kasich's biggest problem is that when a person asks a question, he answers the question, to the extent that he knows it, in that particular person's context, not paying attention to the fact that his answer will get blown up and generalized to apply to every person in every situation. We aren't used to politicians that don't intend their answers to be extremely applied to every person in every situation.

 

 

Kasich has been a national politician for decades, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he's somehow naive.

 

This also makes no sense. He's answering a question from some random person that he knows nothing about. I'm not sure how you could take it as an answer to this one particular woman and that he didn't mean it to be applicable to college-aged women in general. And, even then, the advice of "don't go to parties" is still crap and still puts the responsibility on the woman. Do we tell people hit by drunk drivers "well, you really shouldn't drive if you want to reduce the chance of getting in a car accident"

[CrimsonWeltall]

Telling women not to go to parties (or drink, or go to clubs, or dress certain ways) puts at least some of the responsibility on the victims whether Kasich intended to or not. And when it comes to sexual assaults, the focus far too often is on what the victims did 'wrong' rather than on what the perpetrators did wrong.

 

Telling someone not to go to alcohol-fueled college s***shows is like telling them not to travel down dark alleys alone. You should be able to do either without worrying about being victimized in some way. But reality is that you can't, and avoiding those situations is one step you can take to keep yourself safer. A victim in either situation does not deserve to be a victim, nor do they merit any blame.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Why is it on women to change their lives and not engage in otherwise normal activities rather than on the assaulters?

 

It's already on the assaulters. That's why their actions are crimes that can result in severe penalties. There's no one advocating for rape legalization here.

 

Is there any form of sexual assault safety advice that women could be given that wouldn't constitute victim-blaming?

[StrangeSox]

It's already on the assaulters. That's why their actions are crimes that can result in severe penalties. There's no one advocating for rape legalization here.

 

But the discussion of sexual assault is always centered around what the victims, usually women, were doing 'wrong'. "Don't wear short skirts, don't drink, don't go out to bars etc." The discussion isn't with young men on how to avoid potentially becoming the assaulter, about them not going to parties where alcohol is served, about "no means no."

 

Is there any form of sexual assault safety advice that women could be given that wouldn't constitute victim-blaming?

 

This can actually be a pretty tricky line! I don't have a clear-cut answer here, but I will cop-out and say I know when something is victim-blaming and Kasich responding to a question about what he'd do to improve safety by telling young women to not go to parties pretty clearly crosses that line. It is literally a text-book example of how victim-blaming plays out and assaulters get acquittals.

Edited April 18, 2016 by StrangeSox

[cabiness42]

She'd feel safer if she wore a burka to completely avoid risking exciting nearby men and never left the house. That would also be s***ty advice similar to telling college-aged women not to go to routine social functions. Whether or not the advice of "don't go to parties, college-aged women!" should negatively impact views of sexual assault victims isn't really relevant when everything we know about how sexual assault victims are treated by the justice system says that it does.

 

 

 

 

Kasich has been a national politician for decades, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he's somehow naive.

 

This also makes no sense. He's answering a question from some random person that he knows nothing about. I'm not sure how you could take it as an answer to this one particular woman and that he didn't mean it to be applicable to college-aged women in general. And, even then, the advice of "don't go to parties" is still crap and still puts the responsibility on the woman. Do we tell people hit by drunk drivers "well, you really shouldn't drive if you want to reduce the chance of getting in a car accident"

 

I avoid driving at night, especially near bars, as much as possible for that very reason.

 

Again, her question was "how do I feel safer." Not going will make her feel safer. He's not telling her she can't go, or not to go ever. He's telling her that if she doesn't go, she will feel safer. Everybody is reading too much into this. All he said is that if she doesn't go, she will feel safer. The fact that assaults happen frequently at these types of parties make that statement true. Nobody is blaming her or making value judgments about her actions. Each woman can use that information and make up her own mind to weigh the value of feeling safer with the value of participating in the activities.

[cabiness42]

But the discussion of sexual assault is always centered around what the victims, usually women, were doing 'wrong'. "Don't wear short skirts, don't drink, don't go out to bars etc." The discussion isn't with young men on how to avoid potentially becoming the assaulter, about them not going to parties where alcohol is served, about "no means no."

 

 

 

This can actually be a pretty tricky line! I don't have a clear-cut answer here, but I will cop-out and say I know when something is victim-blaming and Kasich responding to a question about what he'd do to improve safety by telling young women to not go to parties pretty clearly crosses that line. It is literally a text-book example of how victim-blaming plays out and assaulters get acquittals.

 

Agreed on the point in general about there not being enough discussion with young men, but this specific question came from a woman. He can't tell this woman anything that is going to help her force men to behave differently. What this woman can control is where she goes and when she goes there.

 

What if the woman's question had been: "If I avoid parties where there is lots of alcohol, would my chances of being sexually assaulted be reduced?"

[CrimsonWeltall]

But the discussion of sexual assault is always centered around what the victims, usually women, were doing 'wrong'. "Don't wear short skirts, don't drink, don't go out to bars etc."

 

Well...yeah, because the discussion is made amongst non-rapists. Here's what we can do to protect ourselves. On the topic of home robberies, people talk about alarm systems and locking your doors and having a big dog, not telling robbers not to rob.

 

The discussion isn't with young men on how to avoid potentially becoming the assaulter, about them not going to parties where alcohol is served, about "no means no."

 

There seems to be A LOT of discussion about issues of consent, "no means no", the move towards "yes means yes", etc. Those discussions are aimed toward generally well-meaning people, of course, not wolves.

 

This can actually be a pretty tricky line! I don't have a clear-cut answer here, but I will cop-out and say I know when something is victim-blaming and Kasich responding to a question about what he'd do to improve safety by telling young women to not go to parties pretty clearly crosses that line. It is literally a text-book example of how victim-blaming plays out and assaulters get acquittals.

 

If there's a line, there's gotta be *something* you'd view as clearly on the okay side of it.

 

Can you elaborate on your acquittals statement? Has there been a case where a woman was definitely raped, but the defendant was acquitted because the jury blamed the victim for her decisions?

[pettie4sox]

Agreed on the point in general about there not being enough discussion with young men, but this specific question came from a woman. He can't tell this woman anything that is going to help her force men to behave differently. What this woman can control is where she goes and when she goes there.

 

What if the woman's question had been: "If I avoid parties where there is lots of alcohol, would my chances of being sexually assaulted be reduced?"

 

Maybe, maybe not. I'd be curious to see the statistics about rape involving alcohol versus not involving alcohol.

[Chisoxfn]

Fair enough. Not being around drunk boys may be part of it, but I took it as primarily about not getting drunk yourself, or as a general notion that parties with a lot of alcohol are more likely to be dangerous situations.

I'm with you and Hickory.

[Chisoxfn]

It's victim-blaming.

 

 

 

Do we "advise" victims of theft or assault that they shouldn't go to parties, police how they dress etc.? Or do sexual assault victims tend to get a lot more skepticism and scrutiny than victims of other crimes?

 

 

 

No, victim blaming was not being responsible. Like I said a while back, the problem isn't that he couldn't offer some magical solution as president to prevent sexual assaults, it's that he engaged in a standard victim-blaming trope.

 

 

 

I'm "outraged" and I "went crazy on" the tweet by posting a pretty simple one-sentence post?

 

There wasn't more research to be done. That line is victim-blaming bulls*** and he shouldn't have said it. It doesn't matter if it was surrounded by 1000 words of good thoughts on sexual assault and its prevention, it still deserves to be called out for furthering the victim-blaming culture surrounding sexual assault victims.

Do the police recommend to people in s***ty neighborhoods not to go out at night or loiter at night, etc? Just because they do that, they are just saying, hey, higher liklihood something bad will happen later and we recommend against it....doesn't mean if it happens it is your fault or you are blaming the victim. I think it is a slippery slope to combine the two.

 

This isn't a "don't dress that way" or she was asking for it line of thought here. This was just an answer any dad would give to his daughter.

[Chisoxfn]

Telling someone not to go to alcohol-fueled college s***shows is like telling them not to travel down dark alleys alone. You should be able to do either without worrying about being victimized in some way. But reality is that you can't, and avoiding those situations is one step you can take to keep yourself safer. A victim in either situation does not deserve to be a victim, nor do they merit any blame.

This post times 1000.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Maybe, maybe not. I'd be curious to see the statistics about rape involving alcohol versus not involving alcohol.

 

Brief google searching indicates that around 2/3 of college sexual assaults involve alcohol.

 

I'd be shocked if the results were different. Bad effects for both victim and attacker. Lower inhibitions, increased aggressiveness, f***ed up perception, low awareness, inability to defend oneself, damage to memory, etc.

[Jenksismyhero]

Why do you guys hate women so much?

[illinilaw08]

Do the police recommend to people in s***ty neighborhoods not to go out at night or loiter at night, etc? Just because they do that, they are just saying, hey, higher liklihood something bad will happen later and we recommend against it....doesn't mean if it happens it is your fault or you are blaming the victim. I think it is a slippery slope to combine the two.

 

This isn't a "don't dress that way" or she was asking for it line of thought here. This was just an answer any dad would give to his daughter.

 

The problem is the context though. Kasich was asked about sexual assault. He said a lot of stuff about policies he enacted in Ohio that helped provide access to rape kits and counseling after the fact. Which was all really good stuff. The problem with the answer is that the only thing he said about rape prevention, in a policy answer, was avoid parties with lots of alcohol.

 

Take the crappy neighborhood example. If Kasich was asked about reducing crime and he responded with a bunch of solid ideas when it comes to incarceration rates, community cooperation, and ways to prevent recidivism, and then followed that up by saying "and oh yeah, avoid bad neighborhoods after dark," that answer would be panned (rightfully).

 

I don't think Kasich intended his response to be anything other than advice to a student who seemed particularly concerned about sexual assault on campus, but when compared to the fact that he answered a policy question with policy answers, to me, the avoid parties with alcohol quote came across poorly.

[cabiness42]

The problem is the context though. Kasich was asked about sexual assault. He said a lot of stuff about policies he enacted in Ohio that helped provide access to rape kits and counseling after the fact. Which was all really good stuff. The problem with the answer is that the only thing he said about rape prevention, in a policy answer, was avoid parties with lots of alcohol.

 

Take the crappy neighborhood example. If Kasich was asked about reducing crime and he responded with a bunch of solid ideas when it comes to incarceration rates, community cooperation, and ways to prevent recidivism, and then followed that up by saying "and oh yeah, avoid bad neighborhoods after dark," that answer would be panned (rightfully).

 

I don't think Kasich intended his response to be anything other than advice to a student who seemed particularly concerned about sexual assault on campus, but when compared to the fact that he answered a policy question with policy answers, to me, the avoid parties with alcohol quote came across poorly.

 

"Avoid bad neighborhoods" has a racial context that "avoid drunken parties" does not have.

[Jenksismyhero]

The problem is the context though. Kasich was asked about sexual assault. He said a lot of stuff about policies he enacted in Ohio that helped provide access to rape kits and counseling after the fact. Which was all really good stuff. The problem with the answer is that the only thing he said about rape prevention, in a policy answer, was avoid parties with lots of alcohol.

 

Take the crappy neighborhood example. If Kasich was asked about reducing crime and he responded with a bunch of solid ideas when it comes to incarceration rates, community cooperation, and ways to prevent recidivism, and then followed that up by saying "and oh yeah, avoid bad neighborhoods after dark," that answer would be panned (rightfully).

 

I don't think Kasich intended his response to be anything other than advice to a student who seemed particularly concerned about sexual assault on campus, but when compared to the fact that he answered a policy question with policy answers, to me, the avoid parties with alcohol quote came across poorly.

 

The Democratic National Committee suggested Kasich's comments were "blaming victims of sexual and domestic violence."

 

Kasich, however, rejected that claim when speaking to reporters after the event.

 

"I just said be careful where there's alcohol, and the reason why I worry about that is, it obscures the ability of people to seek justice," Kasich said. "It gets to be about he said, she said, and there's alcohol and it creates an inability to find the truth. That has nothing to do with saying that somebody who has been a victim is somehow responsible."

"As the father of two 16-year-old daughters you better believe every day I think about the threats that happen to our young women on college campuses, and make no mistake, the perpetrators have to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law," he added.

 

What an asshole! He's basically saying "get back in the kitchen where you belong!" Right? Ugh. Disgusting. Women have a right to go to school just like us, am I right?

 

 

Seriously though, I hope if/when you guys have daughters you never tell them to "be careful" or "be smart" or "make good choices." That's obviously just blatant victim-shaming and rapist-supporting talk.

[StrangeSox]

Can you elaborate on your acquittals statement? Has there been a case where a woman was definitely raped, but the defendant was acquitted because the jury blamed the victim for her decisions?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/18/m..._n_4811890.html not an acquittal but reduced sentences and still awful victim-blaming

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-36...lame-raped.html British study on attitudes towards sexual assault victims but similar attitudes in this country

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/...e-case/8955585/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/cri...g-too-much.html

http://www.xojane.com/issues/attorney-rape...closed-her-legs

http://lawstreetmedia.com/blogs/world-blog...laming-consent/

 

and of course some of the more repugnant stuff like "legitimate rape"

 

It's obviously going to be hard to google up specific examples of "X was acquitted because of victim-blaming," but examples pop up over and over again in courts and there's lots of literature on the hurdles that sexual assault and rape victims face in even getting their cases taken seriously in the first place, let alone going through a trial and getting a conviction. Victims of rape or sexual assault being blamed for their own assaults has been researched for decades, e.g.

[illinilaw08]

"Avoid bad neighborhoods" has a racial context that "avoid drunken parties" does not have.

 

Ok, change it to "avoid dark alleys" late at night.

 

The point is that in both the hypothetical crime example and the real sexual assault example, the first part of the answer is fine and addresses real policy details re: victims of sexual assault. At no point in the answer does Kasich make any policy statement regarding sexual assault prevention other than to say "avoid parties with lots of alcohol." To me, that quote isn't as bad if it's in response to the question "what would you tell your daughter to try to reduce her risk of sexual assault" or if the answer followed other policy positions involving sexual assault prevention.

 

It was a bad answer within the context of the question.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

What an asshole! He's basically saying "get back in the kitchen where you belong!" Right? Ugh. Disgusting. Women have a right to go to school just like us, am I right?

 

 

Seriously though, I hope if/when you guys have daughters you never tell them to "be careful" or "be smart" or "make good choices." That's obviously just blatant victim-shaming and rapist-supporting talk.

 

He didn't say those things, though. He suggested that the solution to sexual assault is for women not to go to parties where there is alcohol. It's about as useful as suggesting that the way to avoid a car accident is to never get into a car.

[cabiness42]

Ok, change it to "avoid dark alleys" late at night.

 

The point is that in both the hypothetical crime example and the real sexual assault example, the first part of the answer is fine and addresses real policy details re: victims of sexual assault. At no point in the answer does Kasich make any policy statement regarding sexual assault prevention other than to say "avoid parties with lots of alcohol." To me, that quote isn't as bad if it's in response to the question "what would you tell your daughter to try to reduce her risk of sexual assault" or if the answer followed other policy positions involving sexual assault prevention.

 

It was a bad answer within the context of the question.

 

Did you read his entire statement? He said lots of policy things other than "avoid drunken parties".

[illinilaw08]

What an asshole! He's basically saying "get back in the kitchen where you belong!" Right? Ugh. Disgusting. Women have a right to go to school just like us, am I right?

 

 

Seriously though, I hope if/when you guys have daughters you never tell them to "be careful" or "be smart" or "make good choices." That's obviously just blatant victim-shaming and rapist-supporting talk.

 

Except there's a huge difference between a father telling his daughter to make good choices and it being a politicians' sexual assault prevention position (particularly in light of the historic treatment of victims of sexual assault).

[southsider2k5]

He didn't say those things, though. He suggested that the solution to sexual assault is for women not to go to parties where there is alcohol. It's about as useful as suggesting that the way to avoid a car accident is to never get into a car.

 

Not really. More accurately would be don't drink and drive. We know that driving after drinking involves a higher rate of accidents. We tell people not to drink and drive all of the time. We also tell people not to get into a car with drunk driver, and we sure don't consider it victim shaming to do so.

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

Ok, change it to "avoid dark alleys" late at night.

 

The point is that in both the hypothetical crime example and the real sexual assault example, the first part of the answer is fine and addresses real policy details re: victims of sexual assault. At no point in the answer does Kasich make any policy statement regarding sexual assault prevention other than to say "avoid parties with lots of alcohol." To me, that quote isn't as bad if it's in response to the question "what would you tell your daughter to try to reduce her risk of sexual assault" or if the answer followed other policy positions involving sexual assault prevention.

 

It was a bad answer within the context of the question.

 

If Kasich was asked by a young man how to feel safer from muggings, and Kasich had ended his reply with "and avoid dark alleys late at night", I don't think he'd be facing any of the backlash he is now.

[StrangeSox]

Not really. More accurately would be don't drink and drive. We know that driving after drinking involves a higher rate of accidents. We tell people not to drink and drive all of the time. We also tell people not to get into a car with drunk driver, and we sure don't consider it victim shaming to do so.

 

But driving drunk in and of itself is bad. Going to a party is not similar to how driving a car isn't inherently bad and to be avoided. There's nothing wrong with young women wanting to go to bars or parties and even consume some alcohol.