The Bulls biggest problem: John Paxson and Gar Forman

ozzfest · January 17, 2016

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 07:33 PM)

I am totally fine with criticism, and I think Gar and Pax deserve a good amount for some things. There have been some big misses, and I'm not a fan of their historic conservative approach.

But if you are going to start a thread on it, I want actual moves they could have realistically made over the last 3 years to really change the fortune of this team, and finally take down LeBron. It has always rested on Rose, they had no choice but to pay him that money at the time, and now it's backfired in a huge way.

You want actual moves? How about trading Luol Deng and Ben Gordon for Kobe Bryant? How about keeping Lamarcus Aldridge? How about keeping Ron Adams on the coaching staff? How about trading for Demar Derozan or Jamal Crawford in 2011 when they were desperate for a shot creator. How about trading for Demarcus Cousins earlier this year? Do you actually buy into the BS that the Bulls didn't make a SINGLE move this offseason. It's pathetic.

ozzfest · January 17, 2016

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 17, 2016 -> 12:11 PM)

1. No concrete evidence those two players would have got the deal done. But it fits into your "Bulls suck" narrative, so I understand why you included it.

2. That was an awful deal. No one is denying that, and it has been mentioned in this thread. They deserve criticism for that move. What else do you want?

3. What package was going to get that done? Please, enlighten us.

You still have left out the Rose injuries in all of this, because it goes against your narrative.

But, I won't stop you from your little crusade. You seem to enjoy the hate, so go nuts.

I suggest you read this article tony. Here is some evidence. I can provide more evidence if you like. http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/laker...0223-story.html

Balta1701 · January 17, 2016

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 17, 2016 -> 01:00 PM)

You want actual moves? How about trading Luol Deng and Ben Gordon for Kobe Bryant? How about keeping Lamarcus Aldridge? How about keeping Ron Adams on the coaching staff? How about trading for Demar Derozan or Jamal Crawford in 2011 when they were desperate for a shot creator. How about trading for Demarcus Cousins earlier this year? Do you actually buy into the BS that the Bulls didn't make a SINGLE move this offseason. It's pathetic.

I know, the Bulls are way too darn hesitant. Why on Earth didn't they trade Butler and Noah for Kevin Love?

southsider2k5 · January 17, 2016

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 17, 2016 -> 11:56 AM)

Pau Gasol was a big FA signing? Maybe for the pathetic Bulls... Gasol is 35 years old. How does Gasol help this team get to a championship? If an executive can't lure difference making players to a team, then that executive sucks. Also, aside from Jimmy Butler, who has GarPax drafted that impresses you so much? And don't say Taj Gibson. Gibson is replacement level talent. I bet you are a big McDermott fan, and you think Snell is good, and you think that Portis is the next KG. This is the problem with the Bulls. Bulls fans buy into the GarPax BS. I bet you didn't want them to trade Luol Deng for Kobe Bryant. I bet you didn't want the Bulls to trade Asik a couple years back as well.

What in the actual f*** are you talking about? There is a whole lot of feeding words that have never been said, and nothing at all in substance. I could have heard this on a sports talk show call in.

Quin · January 18, 2016

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 17, 2016 -> 12:41 PM)

I suggest you read this article tony. Here is some evidence. I can provide more evidence if you like. http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/laker...0223-story.html

I hope you know that the long-standing rumor is Kobe wouldn't allow any deal that send Deng to Los Angeles.

knightni · January 18, 2016

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 17, 2016 -> 12:56 PM)

Pau Gasol was a big FA signing?

Gasol is exceeding his per year Lakers stats for only 1/3 of his per year LA salary.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Steve9347 · January 18, 2016

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 05:10 PM)

John Paxson and Gar Forman have been running this team for over 13 seasons now. They have not gotten it done. They should be fired. I simply cannot recall this type of blind support and protection (from the Chicago media) when it came to Jerry Angelo, Phil Emery, Jim Hendry, or any other executive in Chicago sports. (At least Kenny won a World Series) The fact is--Continuously, GarPax has failed to provide talented, championship caliber rosters.

it'll never happen

lasttriptotulsa · January 18, 2016

I'm not the biggest fan of GarPax, but this thread is hilarious. Faulting them for not signing the big free agents? They've made the attempt and have offered max contracts. If the player they want doesn't want to sign there what are they supposed to do? Sure they've made a couple bad trades but what GM hasn't?

If Derrick Rose's first ACL tear never happened we may be looking at GarPax's legacy completely different. They had back to back seasons as the number 1 seed in the East and failed in the playoffs. Hard to blame the guys upstairs for that.

Balta1701 · January 18, 2016

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 18, 2016 -> 12:59 PM)

I'm not the biggest fan of GarPax, but this thread is hilarious. Faulting them for not signing the big free agents? They've made the attempt and have offered max contracts. If the player they want doesn't want to sign there what are they supposed to do? Sure they've made a couple bad trades but what GM hasn't?

If Derrick Rose's first ACL tear never happened we may be looking at GarPax's legacy completely different. They had back to back seasons as the number 1 seed in the East and failed in the playoffs. Hard to blame the guys upstairs for that.

I understand calling them out for being overly hesitant and it's probably a fair complaint, but take a look at the results. If they were overly hesitant on trading young guys in the late 00's, that definitely contributed to that team breaking down and maybe they should have aggressively moved Deng or Gordon sooner.

On the other hand, right now we're looking at having the #2 Shooting guard in the NBA (by quick check of PER) or something like that because we didn't make the aggressive move the last few years.

At the very least it's not an open and shut case. If you could have gotten Bryant and we turned it down, then that's a pretty clear mistake, but that's complicated and there's no guarantee we'd have won a title with him anyway (the Gasol trade mattered a ton there). Maybe we should have traded Rose or the rights to Rose before he got hurt, but I still haven't seen anyone say that. If the Bulls were relying on Rose playing up to his contract any of the last 4 years, which they almost had to - the injuries have killed that.

Especially now that we're seeing Butler dominate after the Bulls were patient with him and didn't trade him, the "Bulls FO needs to be more aggressive about trading young guys for stars" doesn't look like an always winning argument any more. At the very least, it's a case-by-case setup; maybe making the move in the 00's would have been the right move, but you're not going to tell me that any proposed trade centered around Butler would have made this team better.

southsider2k5 · January 18, 2016

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 18, 2016 -> 03:08 AM)

I hope you know that the long-standing rumor is Kobe wouldn't allow any deal that send Deng to Los Angeles.

That is the same thing I have always understood too. Kobe wanted a deal done that didn't weaken the Bulls enough to where he couldn't win there.

nitetrain8601 · January 19, 2016

It's late, even on the West Coast, but I feel like having to reply to this thread. First thing I'll say is that I agree. GarPax has had 13 years to field a championship caliber team, only one year did they. And it actually happened on accident if you think about it. This is going to be a long winded post, so I summarized it in the first two sentences. Here's my defense for this thread(though I didn't make it):

Lovie and Jerry Angelo had 8 years to turn the Bears into championship contenders. At the very least, they made it to the Super Bowl in one of those years and had a good shot at winning that game in a tougher sport. They also had made the playoffs before and Lovie's final year, he went 10-6 with the team taking a nosedive the year he left. Usually that indicates good coaching. Bears and their fans didn't believe so. White Sox won a WS in 2005, but we all want KW fired. Cubs have fired different guys since Paxson stepped in for the Bulls trying to get the job done. Fact is, the Chicago Fire FO has received more criticism and calls for firings than GarPax has. Stating the opposite is indefensible. Local media has all criticized the other teams in this town, but the Bulls have always gotten a free pass.

Paxson had actually a good drafting record when he first started. He hit on Kirk, Gordon, Deng and Duhon was a good backup PG. 4 players with his first 4 tries, he hit on. His strategy on the trade market and acquiring assets was working. He dumped Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry at the right time and for as good as a package as you can get when teams know you don't want those players anymore. Even with trading those guys, through his drafting, he turned the Bulls into a playoff team which this city starved for. They had a good coach in Skiles who demanded effort and the Baby Bulls were on the rise.

He trades Tyson Chandler so he can free up space for Ben Wallace. They slightly overpaid at the time, but it was a solid move as he felt this would help the Bulls get to the next level (sidenote, I think this is where Paxson turned into a bad GM/VP). It actually works out despite squabbles with Big Ben who we knew loved to wear his fro out and bandanas in Detroit, and who Paxson suddenly tried to neuter with the help of Skiles. In the end, Bulls lay waste of the defending champs, make it to the 2nd round, and play Detroit tough(just weren't ready). We all thought they were on the way. The following year, Ben's displeasure with the Bulls grows louder because he feels like he's being treated like a kid and not like the defending champ he is. His game tanks as a result as he just doesn't give an eff anymore. Chandler is revived in NO with Chris Paul and the Bulls have nothing to show from the Chandler deal as the best piece they got(JR Smith) was waived in 10 minutes because Paxson needed guys who wouldn't rock the boat and he was the type to let a players past shape his thoughts(whether right or wrong). All of this is even worse as the Bulls start off slow and Skiles bickered with the FO over an extension who they played hardball on for no reason. Skiles is fired during the Christmas holiday with a bad taste in his mouth. Wallace is dealt to Cleveland for a bag of balls as he's grown to be a malcontent at this point and the Bulls miss the playoffs horribly. To make matters worse, Gar Forman's first pick Tyrus Thomas doesn't develop as fast as they hoped while LaMarcus Aldridge is showing flashes of brilliance in Portland, but not enough to be the main storyline. Joakim Noah doesn't look like much either and ends up fighting with the coaching staff alot.

Bulls luck into Derrick Rose as they had a less than 2% chance of winning the draft lottery. They win the #1 pick and draft him. Vinny Del Negro is hired as coach, though he had no previous coaching experience. This was Paxson's choice. The Bulls end up creeping into the playoffs and give us the greatest basketball playoff series ever. Rose makes rookie history in his first playoff game and the Bulls are excited about their past and current core meshing together. The team's leading scorer is not given a new deal as the front office preferred to not waste the money on him(here's where I started seeing Paxson's flaws as he let his leading scorer and his best SG since Jordan leave with no compensation and no plans to replace him while keeping Luol Deng who didn't fit under VDN). The team highlight, Paxson's last good trade, was actually an accident as well. Andres Nocioni who hadn't lived up to his contract, Michael Ruffin, Drew Gooden and Cedric Simmons are all traded as a cap dump for Brad Miller and John Salmons. Salmons played out of this world for the rest of the season, forming a great 1-2-3 punch with Rose and Gordon. Miller became a good mentor for Joakim Noah. Salmons is kept, but quickly discovered as a guy who just had a great half to a season and nothing more. Bulls get trounced by LeBron's Cavs. Bulls drafted Taj Gibson and James Johnson before the season. Johnson was another Forman pick. It is found out by Adrian Woj, that the Paxson got into a physical altercation with VDN over the handling of Joakim Noah's minutes when coming back from injury. Noah was to be on a minute's restriction, but played more minutes in a tight game in which VDN asked Noah if he would be willing to go in and Noah answered yes. Bulls hire Tom Thibodeau. He brings along Ron Adams who previously clashed with Joakim Noah, but who grows a strong bond with budding star, Derrick Rose. Bulls miss out on Joe Johnson, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade. They sign JJ Redick to an offer sheet which is quickly matched by Orlando. They move onto Plan C and sign Carlos Boozer, Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver and CJ Watson. They drafted Kevin Saraphin who is dealt with an aging Kirk Hinrich to WAS for cap space.

With Thibs' system of effort everyday and freedom on offense while also making Luol Deng an integral part of the team, the Bulls shock the world and have a winning record against the Heatles. They lead the Eastern Conference in wins despite having Boozer and Noah miss large chunks of the season and Keith Bogans on their roster. Omer Asik shows he's a viable C in Thibs' rotation along with aging Kurt Thomas. Paxson's pickups worked out and they have the MVP. Bulls are bounced in the ECF in a close every game, but not close series (miami heat). Denver wants to deal Carmelo Anthony after he requests trade, but Bulls refuse to deal Joakim Noah in any deal. Melo eventually goes to NY.

Bulls enter the 2010-2011 season as a true contender. They draft Jimmy Butler who is a relative unknown out of Marquette. They decide an aging and agitated Richard Hamilton is the answer at SG over options such as OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee, all-star level Caron Butler, and Jamal Crawford to name a few. Bulls start lockout shortened season where they left off, and that's winning. Nagging injuries get to the team's star in Derrick rose, but he returns for the playoffs and tears his ACL in Game 1. Bulls choke against the 8th seed and lose. Bulls draft Marquis Teague over the wishes of Tom Thibs and Ron Adams to draft Draymond Green. Bulls breakup the bench mob and deal Korver for a TPE they never used. This after letting go of Ronnie Brewer and CJ Watson. They sign Nate Robinson as roster filler, eventually cut ties with disgruntled Richard Hamilton, and sign Kirk Hinrich over OJ Mayo though Hinrich's best years being clearly behind him and the Bulls needing shooting. With all the injuries, Butler develops under Tom T's demand for effort. Bulls win an exciting series over the Nets with MVP candidate Joakim Noah and Nate Robinson leading the way and take a game from eventual champion Miami Heat despite being outnumbered. Bulls do not extend Ron Adams after him and Thibs struggle in a power play with Gar Forman. Thibs is upset with this, but still has backing of JR and VP John Paxson. Thibs also takes a year to sign extension deal. Bulls drafted Tony Snell who just isn't an NBA rotation player. Rumors come out about infighting by the FO with Thibs.

Derrick Rose comes back after a year and a half absence and tries to play super fast. He tears his meniscus in about 10 games. Season is lost. Bulls make no deadline deals to obtain anyone which came after an offseason in which they let go of fan favorite, Nate Robinson. DJ Augustin does an admirable job off of the scrapheap. Bulls miss scoring for the 3rd year in a row and Paxson does nothing. Despite Rose missing most of the season again, Bulls continue to count on him being a championship level player. They draft Doug McDermott after trading Jusef Nurkic and Gary Harris and a 2nd rounder.

Bulls try to woo Carmelo Anthony, but he decides to stay in NY over the Bulls. Pau Gasol signs with the Bulls citing Tom Thibodeau as the main reason along with Joakim Noah recruiting him. Front office feels the Bulls have enough to compete again. Bulls sign Aaron Brooks as a backup PG and continue to hope Rose becomes an MVP again. They have their best chance since 2010 with Rose healthy enough for the playoffs and Cleveland missing 1 part of their big 3. Bulls are up 2-1 after a Rose buzzer beater in Game 3. Bulls are about to go up 3-1, but LeBron hits a shot which changes complexion of series. Constant in-fighting between the coach and FO comes to a head. Players are sick of it, Bulls fire Thibs and hire Hoiberg. Bulls make no moves, other than drafting at their pick to draft Bobby Portis. This shows a sign of GarPax believing they had enough and Thibs being the scapegoat. Bulls begin 2015-16 no different than the previous year and in some ways worse under new coach and handpicked chosen boy, Fred Hoiberg. Butler, the team's new start, voices his displeasure with the head coach. Offense, which was supposed to be improved turns way worse, defense gets slightly better. Inefficiencies in Paxson's regime finally start to be talked about - lack of consolidating talent, holding onto assets too long, playing favorites with players, not making deadline deals, not being able to close a deal with a top player in FA, and never being able to acquire legit 2nd options on offense either via trade or FA. Bulls only good pick being Jimmy Butler who developed heavily under Thibs with McDermott and Mirotic showing they can be serviceable NBA players. Bulls have a logjam in the front court with Noah, Gasol, Mirotic, Gibson and Portis and still need help at the wing. Paxson refuses to deal any of his frontcourt players and Noah gets hurt while also being hurt about losing starting job. Portis shows signs of being as good if not better than Gibson, but he is not dealt for help either. Noah doesn't fit in Hoiberg's offense. Rose can't run Hoiberg's offense(or run at all at times). Rose is still injury prone after 5 years of showing he can't be depended on. GarPax is surprised and so are fans. Media and fans say, "you want us to try? how about when LeBron and Steph Curry retire".

This post is very long, but I figured to give you insight on the good and bad of Paxson. In the end, his stubborness is what has costed the team and he's been a mid tier at best, if not lower tier(only held up by drafting which has gotten worse over the past 5 years) VP/GM. Backup PG is a revolving hole of Hinrich's corpse, some ETwan/DaQuan Cook/JamesOn Curry type of player and Aaron Brooks or CJ Watson. Bulls waited too long to deal Noah(should've been dealt at peak value after MVP type season), Deng and let go of Korver, Asik, and Gordon for nothing. Bulls under him (after 2007 season when they beat the heat in the playoffs) became very reactionary and they're pretty much asleep at the wheel until a coach does what he thinks is right or when it's turn to draft.

ozzfest · January 19, 2016

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 03:40 AM)