Sox should trade for Andre Ethier

[Balta1701]

The Sox got Rodon, not bad. We will see what Fulmer does. Sale was a 12 pick. Do you know, since Dayton Moore has been the GM of the Royals, the White Sox have more accumulative WAR out of their 1st round picks than the Royals? In fact, all of the Royals 1st round picks since 2007, and they have had 6 in the top 8, 5 in the top 5, don't add up WAR wise to Chris Sale. Yet, somehow they won the World Series.

But of course, that silly notion pretends like "drafting high" is the only thing you do when you're rebuilding. Other things include "Trading to acquire talent" and "playing guys who have struggled but have talent and letting them work through their struggles", and sometimes "taking on guys other teams are willing to sell for a pittance because they believe they're competitive and you have playing time to give them". All of which are valid strategies that have been employed by the teams you cite, and none of which can be employed by a team that gets impatient and insists "We'll be right there at the end!"

[LittleHurt05]

You should also point out during that time the Cubs drew 11,137,363, the White Sox drew 7,140,999. Close to 1 million fans a year more. In fact it they could have matched the Cubs attendance, it would have been the greatest 4 year stretch in their history. The only reason to tank is for the first round pick. After that, any player you can select is available to a team that tried to contend but did not as long as they have their draft picks. The Cubs being awful got them Bryant and Schwarber. All the other guys they could have acquired anyway.

 

The Astros drew 7,165,030 over the past 4 years, helped by a playoff jump this year. They did a rebuild, lost major attendance numbers, yet didn't wilt away and die like everyone claims the Sox would.

[sammy esposito]

Would 8-10k really be that much of a difference?

 

Tuesday night 08/26/14 - 12,462

Wednesday night 08/27/14 - 11,976

 

Tuesday night 09/08/15 - 11,990

Wednesday night 09/09/15 - 11,667

Tuesday night 09/15/15 - 12,446

Wednesday night 09/16/15 - 13,005

in September the sox were out of contention. No reason to attend.Why watch a team that is doing everything to lose. That is not when you want to watch white sox baseball .

[Dick Allen]

But of course, that silly notion pretends like "drafting high" is the only thing you do when you're rebuilding. Other things include "Trading to acquire talent" and "playing guys who have struggled but have talent and letting them work through their struggles", and sometimes "taking on guys other teams are willing to sell for a pittance because they believe they're competitive and you have playing time to give them". All of which are valid strategies that have been employed by the teams you cite, and none of which can be employed by a team that gets impatient and insists "We'll be right there at the end!"

Who are these players the Cubs gave all the time in the world to work things out, and are now contributing to winning? They did trade to acquire talent. But the only significant player they traded was Samardjiza, and they did that after he turned down a decent extension offer.

 

Seems to me the White Sox have been giving their younger players playing time the last 3 years. Just without success.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Y2Jimmy0]

The Astros drew 7,165,030 over the past 4 years, helped by a playoff jump this year. They did a rebuild, lost major attendance numbers, yet didn't wilt away and die like everyone claims the Sox would.

 

 

I don't think it's that they couldn't handle it. It's the simple fact that teams with Chris Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Abreu, and Eaton don't rebuild. It doesn't make sense.

[Balta1701]

Who are these players the Cubs gave all the time in the world to work things out, and are now contributing to winning? They did trade to acquire talent. But the only significant player they traded was Samardjiza, and they did that after he turned down a decent extension offer.

Drops the f***ing mic.

[Dick Allen]

Drops the f***ing mic.

The White Sox haven't done that? Obviously, not the same result as Arreitta, who was a throw in, and who never really fought through these struggles with the Cubs you speak of, but they certainly have given plenty of young players a shot the past 3 seasons.

 

 

[Thad Bosley]

Not too much differently than Cespedes, and you seemed to have a big problem with the Sox not offering Cespedes whatever it took, which would have been not younger and not cost controlled.

Well yes, I wasn't asking what I wanted, which was Cespedes, a premium talent for a premium need on our club. I was simply asking about a previously stated priority about obtaining younger, cost-controlled guys, of which Ethier is anything but. However, a few other posters pointed out the Frazier and Lawrie acquisitions which fit that bill, so I'm good for now, Dick. But I will be back!! You can count on that!!

 

[Balta1701]

The White Sox haven't done that? Obviously, not the same result as Arreitta, who was a throw in, and who never really fought through these struggles with the Cubs you speak of, but they certainly have given plenty of young players a shot the past 3 seasons.

So you agree the White Sox should be in rebuilding mode?

[Chisoxfn]

Drops the f***ing mic.

Jose Quintana?

[LittleHurt05]

I don't think it's that they couldn't handle it. It's the simple fact that teams with Chris Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Abreu, and Eaton don't rebuild. It doesn't make sense.

 

I don't disagree. After watching the Mets last year, the thought of Sale/Q/Rodon in a playoff series is very enticing.

 

I had just replied to a post that specifically said the Sox can't rebuild because of the fanbase, which seems to be a popular opinion. I just find that false, the franchise is already irrelevant now when they go for it, what difference would it make?

[southsider2k5]

So you agree the White Sox should be in rebuilding mode?

 

So you agree the Sox should be drawing another 5k a night?

[Balta1701]

 

So you agree the Sox should be drawing another 5k a night?

You keep acting like they won't be doing that anyway if they miss the playoffs for the next 1-2 years while the Cubs dominate the market, as the teams are set up to do.

[Dick Allen]

So you agree the White Sox should be in rebuilding mode?

Absolutely not.

[Balta1701]

Absolutely not.

Then it's a clear mistake to give time to guys or trade for guys who are 1/5 shots to turn their careers around.

 

And of course, why we needed to find a different RF for next season, bringing us back to the reality that Ethier's just about the best option remaining.

[southsider2k5]

You keep acting like they won't be doing that anyway if they miss the playoffs for the next 1-2 years while the Cubs dominate the market, as the teams are set up to do.

 

I don't believe that this is the bottom, nor particularly close to it when it comes to attendance. Stability or even a slow ebb is better than a huge active flight.

 

Look at your history between 1997 and 1998 and tell me again that this won't change things.

[Dick Allen]

You keep acting like they won't be doing that anyway if they miss the playoffs for the next 1-2 years while the Cubs dominate the market, as the teams are set up to do.

If the White Sox could average another 1 million a year more than they draw now to tank the next 4 seasons, it might be worth it to see at least what you could get for Sale and Abreu and Quintana (hey a minor league free agent the Sox let pitch), Eaton, etc. But they don't. It is nice to know you find rebuilds to be quite easy and damn near foolproof.

[Dick Allen]

Then it's a clear mistake to give time to guys or trade for guys who are 1/5 shots to turn their careers around.

 

And of course, why we needed to find a different RF for next season, bringing us back to the reality that Ethier's just about the best option remaining.

But the Sox gave Avi Garcia a young player a lot of playing time to fight through his struggles, correct? Is he going to breakout if given another chance?

[Balta1701]

Then it's a clear mistake to give time to guys or trade for guys who are 1/5 shots to turn their careers around.

 

And of course, why we needed to find a different RF for next season, bringing us back to the reality that Ethier's just about the best option remaining.

 

 

But the Sox gave Avi Garcia a young player a lot of playing time to fight through his struggles, correct? Is he going to breakout if given another chance?

Tell you what, you read my post, look at the bolded which you didn't bother reading because otherwise you would never have said that, and then go read a statistics textbook to figure out what the odds are of failure for a guy who I call a "1/5 shot to turn their career around".

[bmags]

But the Sox gave Avi Garcia a young player a lot of playing time to fight through his struggles, correct? Is he going to breakout if given another chance?

 

He played for one full year at age 24 and the team is already actively looking to upgrade. They played semien one full year and traded them. They played Sanchez one full year and upgraded over them. They traded Trayce Thompson. Micah was given 4 weeks and sent down and then traded.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Tell you what, you read my post, look at the bolded which you didn't bother reading because otherwise you would never have said that, and then go read a statistics textbook to figure out what the odds are of failure for a guy who I call a "1/5 shot to turn their career around".

But you said earlier the White Sox don't give guys like Avi a chance to play because they are in win mode. Apparently you were wrong.

 

 

If you want the White Sox to be in the business of fielding a team full of 1/5 shots, you probably wouldn't last long.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

I've said it before: the "scorched Earth" rebuild is a relic from a different era -- an era where the League did way less to ensure parity, where the rich teams spent literally ten times more on payroll than the poor ones, and the amateur player draft was a free market. A true-talent .500 team is currently a contender in any given year, so every team has a shot. Profits have never been higher, so the resources to improve are there. Hard-slotting in the draft substantial reduces team's ability to re-allocate financial resources directly to future talent acquisition, and the IFA rules are following suit soon, so the benefit from failure has been drastically reduced. The rise in injuries has made the promise of future performance a riskier bet than ever before.

 

That doesn't mean we should constantly splurge, but it does mean that we can never consider ourselves more than a year or two from contention. That means constantly stockpiling assets with surplus present and future value, and capitalizing on opportunity by flexing the financial muscle when the market/league situation indicate it is smart to do so. If every transaction makes sense in the context it was presented, than success is bound to come.

 

The Hahn regime has been acting just like I described ALL THE WAY UP TO this year's corner OF situation, where they have (thusfar) inexplicably refused to capitalize on an opportunity to take advantage of a soft market to drastically improve the team's talent level over the next three seasons.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Eminor3rd

[Balta1701]

But you said earlier the White Sox don't give guys like Avi a chance to play because they are in win mode. Apparently you were wrong.

As long as you're content with the performance of the White Sox for the past several seasons then I will concede. The White Sox should continue playing guys who are likely to fail in a number of positions while spending heavily elsewhere and ignoring those holes. It's likely to keep working just as well as it has been. And no one is more content with how this organization is performing than you.

[bmags]

I've said it before: the "scorched Earth" rebuild is a relic from a different era. A true-talent .500 team is currently a contender in any given year, so every team has a shot. Profits have never been higher, so the resources to improve are there. Hard-slotting in the draft substantial reduces team's ability to re-allocate financial resources directly to future talent acquisition, and the IFA rules are following suit soon, so the benefit from failure has been drastically reduced. The rise in injuries has made the promise of future performance a riskier bet than ever before.

 

That doesn't mean we should constantly splurge, but it does mean that we can never consider ourselves more than a year or two from contention. That means constantly stockpiling assets with surplus present and future value, and capitalizing on opportunity by flexing the financial muscle when the market/league situation indicate it is smart to do so. If every transaction makes sense in the context it was presented, than success is bound to come.

 

The Hahn regime has been acting just like I described ALL THE WAY UP TO this year's corner OF situation.

 

Here's my main point, I don't necessarily care about full rebuild.

 

But upon being confronted with this tremendous sellers market for pitching, I wish they would have taken advantage.

 

If there is a situation where ML assets are being undervalued, I want us to take advantage. If there is a situation where pitching assetss are being overvalued and we are not clear contenders, I want us to take advantage.

 

I just can't get out of my head the question of whether we were closer to the playoffs trading Q for a haul than doing what we are doing now, with little left in the tank to acquire through anything but FA money, which we apparently have a strict budget on.

[Dick Allen]

As long as you're content with the performance of the White Sox for the past several seasons then I will concede. The White Sox should continue playing guys who are likely to fail in a number of positions while spending heavily elsewhere and ignoring those holes. It's likely to keep working just as well as it has been. And no one is more content with how this organization is performing than you.

When did I ever write that? Please show me. The one thing I have noticed from the doom and gloomers, your ideal situation is a guaranteed 3 or 4 year stretch where the White Sox are even worse than they have been.

 

Seems to me they have been attempting to fill holes the past 2 offseasons, and are still trying to fill one or two right now.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Dick Allen