Orioles DO NOT Sign Fowler

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

This is a bad analogy.

 

Quality rebuttal.

[caulfield12]

double post/delete

Edited February 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[BlackSox13]

Was Rick Hahn lying at Soxfest when he said there were no financial or contractual restraints when they were negotiating with the big FAs, right up until the day those players signed with the teams that they did? Because whatever "budget constraints" you and SS2K5 imagine are in place today would have been place a few weeks ago when those players all upped up the way they did.

 

To listen to you and SS2K5 go on and on about these alleged budget constraints that, unless you are an employee of the White Sox Finance dept., you would have zero way of knowing, is ridiculous. Unless you're suggesting Hahn is a bold-faced liar, you can probably put all of this budget nonsense to rest, once and for all.

Again, early in the off season it was rumored Hahn had last years budget to work with this year. That was the RUMOR. What Hahn DID say was that he would need to get creative in order to sign a big free agent but had many irons in the fire. Not once did the front office say they would or would not raise the payroll so I wasn't going to assume they would and especially after another season of s***ty Baseball and lowered attendance.

 

Nowhere have I said Hahn is a liar and I'm not about to because he lied about nothing. It's not my fault fans read too much into the media rumors, speculation and made false assumptions. Maybe some fans need to put twitter down for a while...

[Chicago White Sox]

Again, early in the off season it was rumored Hahn had last years budget to work with this year. That was the RUMOR. What Hahn DID say was that he would need to get creative in order to sign a big free agent but had many irons in the fire. Not once did the front office say they would or would not raise the payroll so I wasn't going to assume they would and especially after another season of s***ty Baseball and lowered attendance.

 

Nowhere have I said Hahn is a liar and I'm not about to because he lied about nothing. It's not my fault fans read too much into the media rumors, speculation and made false assumptions. Maybe some fans need to put twitter down for a while...

Your entire argument is based on a rumor that we're tied to last year's budget, but then say "fans read too much into the media rumors". Does that not seem hypocritical to you? Also, Hahn has no reason to come out and say we're sitting on excess cash and he hopes to use it on a big name free agent. Whether he has budget available or not, he's far better off to say he would need to get "creative" so he actually has some negotiating leverage.

 

At the end of day, only the Sox's front office & finance people know what kind of budget available. Having said that, if you believe the Sox were actively involved with three free agents looking for $20M+ AAVs, then I think it's fair assumption to make that the Sox have more money available than media rumors suggest.

[caulfield12]

If they offered Gordon four years and $75 million, that would be yet another indication.

 

Or Cespedes, three years and roughly the same amount.

 

400+ pages wouldn't be in the Cespedes thread if many didn't believe he was a realistic target. Otherwise, we'd have to believe it was all media spin doctoring and more or less a game to build fan interest in the offseason. Is that logical? That everything out there was completely disingenuous and a smokescreen to drive up prices for the Tigers and Royals?

Edited February 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[Thad Bosley]

From the Tribune at Soxfest. All the quotes you pin on Hahn seem to be figment of your imagination.

 

 

Hahn said he is in constant contact with Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf about the flexibility remaining in the club's budget and acknowledged he needs to be creative in structuring potential contracts to fit within the constraints.

LMAO! Oh Dick, sometimes I think YOU'RE a figment of my imagination, because I can't believe how many times you jump into a conversation and completely take it off topic just for the sake of taking the opportunity to throw one of your uninteresting insults into the mix. But that's ok, you're having fun, I guess, but now let's see if we can't reel you back into what we were actually talking about before you entered the fray.

 

If you'll notice, Dick, the topic of this thread has to do with the potential acquisition of one Dexter Fowler by the White Sox. Two regular posters here seem to think that perhaps an obstacle to acquiring Mr. Fowler's services are current budget constraints that may be in place. I happen to think that's not the case, based on "actual words" said by the General Manager at Soxfest. Actual words, Dick, not one's imagined. Quoth Mr. Hahn: “Let me make something really clear: There is absolutely no hardline, dogma, limit on contract terms with free agents. The reason we didn’t sign any of the hitters that thus far have signed elsewhere at the end of the day is not about contract term limitations. We had numerous conversations, with various parameters, various structures, right up until the day or the day before these players wound up choosing their ultimate destinations.”

 

Now, what I took from that statement is that Mr. Hahn was insisting we were making competitive offers to those available premium free agents at that point in time. And my point is, any competitive offer we would have made for any of the big FA outfielders would be much larger than anything we would remotely offer Fowler. So if the Sox were able to make said offers to the Cespedes, Gordon, and perhaps Upton, then obviously the team isn't operating under these alleged budget constraints, as "rumored", or else they wouldn't have made those offers. Thus, we may be negotiating with Fowler for a deal that the team seems to believe is more reflective of the guy's actual market value, but not because the cupboard is bare and we're down to our last pennies.

[Dick Allen]

LMAO! Oh Dick, sometimes I think YOU'RE a figment of my imagination, because I can't believe how many times you jump into a conversation and completely take it off topic just for the sake of taking the opportunity to throw one of your uninteresting insults into the mix. But that's ok, you're having fun, I guess, but now let's see if we can't reel you back into what we were actually talking about before you entered the fray.

 

If you'll notice, Dick, the topic of this thread has to do with the potential acquisition of one Dexter Fowler by the White Sox. Two regular posters here seem to think that perhaps an obstacle to acquiring Mr. Fowler's services are current budget constraints that may be in place. I happen to think that's not the case, based on "actual words" said by the General Manager at Soxfest. Actual words, Dick, not one's imagined. Quoth Mr. Hahn: “Let me make something really clear: There is absolutely no hardline, dogma, limit on contract terms with free agents. The reason we didn’t sign any of the hitters that thus far have signed elsewhere at the end of the day is not about contract term limitations. We had numerous conversations, with various parameters, various structures, right up until the day or the day before these players wound up choosing their ultimate destinations.”

 

Now, what I took from that statement is that Mr. Hahn was insisting we were making competitive offers to those available premium free agents at that point in time. And my point is, any competitive offer we would have made for any of the big FA outfielders would be much larger than anything we would remotely offer Fowler. So if the Sox were able to make said offers to the Cespedes, Gordon, and perhaps Upton, then obviously the team isn't operating under these alleged budget constraints, as "rumored", or else they wouldn't have made those offers. Thus, we may be negotiating with Fowler for a deal that the team seems to believe is more reflective of the guy's actual market value, but not because the cupboard is bare and we're down to our last pennies.

Yes, an article from Soxfest saying he needs to be creative fitting into constraints has nothing to do with budget matters. Be real. For a guy saying mentioning budget is stupid because no one really knows, you seem to think you really know. I would imagine the budget to sign Dexter Fowler isn't the same as it is to sign Alex Gordon, but that is just me. I'm sure if you were looking at a house and was willing to spend x amount on it, if that was sold to someone else, you would spend that same amount on a lesser house just because.

 

Hahn's quote about contract term was in response to the rumors the White Sox were only willing to go 3 years, not the dollar amount. If there was no limit on dollar amount, they would just sign anyone they wanted. All teams have limits.

 

Noun 1. term of a contract - the period of time during which a contract conveying property to a person is in effect

Edited February 8, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Y2Jimmy0]

Quality rebuttal.

 

 

I think your opinion is wrong. I'm not going to argue it further because I think it's stupid and a waste of my time.

[Y2Jimmy0]

LMAO! Oh Dick, sometimes I think YOU'RE a figment of my imagination, because I can't believe how many times you jump into a conversation and completely take it off topic just for the sake of taking the opportunity to throw one of your uninteresting insults into the mix. But that's ok, you're having fun, I guess, but now let's see if we can't reel you back into what we were actually talking about before you entered the fray.

 

If you'll notice, Dick, the topic of this thread has to do with the potential acquisition of one Dexter Fowler by the White Sox. Two regular posters here seem to think that perhaps an obstacle to acquiring Mr. Fowler's services are current budget constraints that may be in place. I happen to think that's not the case, based on "actual words" said by the General Manager at Soxfest. Actual words, Dick, not one's imagined. Quoth Mr. Hahn: “Let me make something really clear: There is absolutely no hardline, dogma, limit on contract terms with free agents. The reason we didn’t sign any of the hitters that thus far have signed elsewhere at the end of the day is not about contract term limitations. We had numerous conversations, with various parameters, various structures, right up until the day or the day before these players wound up choosing their ultimate destinations.”

 

Now, what I took from that statement is that Mr. Hahn was insisting we were making competitive offers to those available premium free agents at that point in time. And my point is, any competitive offer we would have made for any of the big FA outfielders would be much larger than anything we would remotely offer Fowler. So if the Sox were able to make said offers to the Cespedes, Gordon, and perhaps Upton, then obviously the team isn't operating under these alleged budget constraints, as "rumored", or else they wouldn't have made those offers. Thus, we may be negotiating with Fowler for a deal that the team seems to believe is more reflective of the guy's actual market value, but not because the cupboard is bare and we're down to our last pennies.

 

 

Not signing Fowler isn't a matter of budget constraints. It's a matter of "worth". The White Sox think that Fowler + forfeiture of top 30 draft pick is worth X amount. Fowler and his people don't agree, therefore Fowler isn't signed. That's all this is. The White Sox should not offer more than they are willing to offer just because fans are angry that they haven't done anything.

[southsider2k5]

Was Rick Hahn lying at Soxfest when he said there were no financial or contractual restraints when they were negotiating with the big FAs, right up until the day those players signed with the teams that they did? Because whatever "budget constraints" you and SS2K5 imagine are in place today would have been place a few weeks ago when those players all upped up the way they did.

 

To listen to you and SS2K5 go on and on about these alleged budget constraints that, unless you are an employee of the White Sox Finance dept., you would have zero way of knowing, is ridiculous. Unless you're suggesting Hahn is a bold-faced liar, you can probably put all of this budget nonsense to rest, once and for all.

 

If you have to be an employee of the White Sox to know the budget, why are you commenting on it then?

[southsider2k5]

Again, early in the off season it was rumored Hahn had last years budget to work with this year. That was the RUMOR. What Hahn DID say was that he would need to get creative in order to sign a big free agent but had many irons in the fire. Not once did the front office say they would or would not raise the payroll so I wasn't going to assume they would and especially after another season of s***ty Baseball and lowered attendance.

 

Nowhere have I said Hahn is a liar and I'm not about to because he lied about nothing. It's not my fault fans read too much into the media rumors, speculation and made false assumptions. Maybe some fans need to put twitter down for a while...

 

So totally true.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

Not signing Fowler isn't a matter of budget constraints. It's a matter of "worth". The White Sox think that Fowler + forfeiture of top 30 draft pick is worth X amount. Fowler and his people don't agree, therefore Fowler isn't signed. That's all this is. The White Sox should not offer more than they are willing to offer just because fans are angry that they haven't done anything.

100% agreed.

 

I'll admit, I've been a vocal critic of the Sox not doing anything to improve the outfield situation. However, if the Sox front office made decisions solely on what the fans wanted, this franchise would be a disaster.

[bmags]

100% agreed.

 

I'll admit, I've been a vocal critic of the Sox not doing anything to improve the outfield situation. However, if the Sox front office made decisions solely on what the fans wanted, this franchise would be a disaster.

 

At least we would have avoided Mark Kotsay.

[southsider2k5]

Not signing Fowler isn't a matter of budget constraints. It's a matter of "worth". The White Sox think that Fowler + forfeiture of top 30 draft pick is worth X amount. Fowler and his people don't agree, therefore Fowler isn't signed. That's all this is. The White Sox should not offer more than they are willing to offer just because fans are angry that they haven't done anything.

 

A teams definition of "worth" is directly tied to its ability to spend. "Worth" to the Dodgers is not the same as "worth" to the White Sox.

[caulfield12]

Let's say they are at their budget limit, just for argument's sake.

 

How would they expect to get even better bargains or have more resources this time next year? It seems the only way is for this year's team to actually make the playoffs. If they don't, they're back in the same situation with even less negotiating leverage with more teams holding more dollars/revenue chasing fewer assets.

 

I can just see it...now that Danks and LaRoche are off the books, there won't be many good fits left for the White Sox to bid on.

 

And, from the rumors flying around, the Jays are already trying to extend Bautista and Encarnacion, leaving Colby Rasmus and Carlos Gomez as two of the top five hitters on next year's market, along with Cespedes, who I'm sure everyone will agree we likely won't be able to afford.

[Dick Allen]

Let's say they are at their budget limit, just for argument's sake.

 

How would they expect to get even better bargains or have more resources this time next year? It seems the only way is for this year's team to actually make the playoffs. If they don't, they're back in the same situation with even less negotiating leverage with more teams holding more dollars/revenue chasing fewer assets.

 

I can just see it...now that Danks and LaRoche are off the books, there won't be many good fits left for the White Sox to bid on.

 

And, from the rumors flying around, the Jays are already trying to extend Bautista and Encarnacion, leaving Colby Rasmus and Carlos Gomez as two of the top five hitters on next year's market, along with Cespedes, who I'm sure everyone will agree we likely won't be able to afford.

There will always be players to add and trades that can be made. It was written on this board the White Sox had zero chance this offseason to improve their offense without trade Quintana. It appears they have been able to do it. As long as you are willing to pick up money one way or another, you will be able to acquire desirable players.

[caulfield12]

There will always be players to add and trades that can be made. It was written on this board the White Sox had zero chance this offseason to improve their offense without trade Quintana. It appears they have been able to do it. As long as you are willing to pick up money one way or another, you will be able to acquire desirable players.

 

I think it would be more accurate to say the best way to put a playoff contender on the field would be to trade Quintana for a Shelby Miller-like return and go all-in for 2017...or deal him for someone like Puig and patch the rotation with Latos/Fister/Lincecum, etc.

 

To say there was zero chance to improve...well just replacing Flowers, 2b, DH and Garcia with 1 war players would have been a pretty substantial improvement.

 

And the question isn't so much about improvement as good enough to earn a playoff spot at this point.

[BlackSox13]

Your entire argument is based on a rumor that we're tied to last year's budget, but then say "fans read too much into the media rumors". Does that not seem hypocritical to you? Also, Hahn has no reason to come out and say we're sitting on excess cash and he hopes to use it on a big name free agent. Whether he has budget available or not, he's far better off to say he would need to get "creative" so he actually has some negotiating leverage.

 

At the end of day, only the Sox's front office & finance people know what kind of budget available. Having said that, if you believe the Sox were actively involved with three free agents looking for $20M+ AAVs, then I think it's fair assumption to make that the Sox have more money available than media rumors suggest.

Wrong. First, I'm not arguing and just explaining why I wasn't expecting a big FA signing. Second, I admit that the Sox not raising the payroll is based on a rumor but that rumor combined with Hahn's need to get "creative" and attempt at trading LaRoche, imo, show that JR has indeed not allowed a budget increase. Third, despite Hahn saying they have had discussions with free agents, I do not believe the Sox were as involved as people have been led to believe by the media.

 

I do agree with you that none of us know the financials of the White Sox. After another year of poor attendance, I don't think it's too far fetched for me to think JR isn't raising the budget for Hahn. Just my opinion.

[Y2Jimmy0]

A teams definition of "worth" is directly tied to its ability to spend. "Worth" to the Dodgers is not the same as "worth" to the White Sox.

 

 

I suppose. My point was that the Sox might think that Fowler is worth something like 3/35 with a comp pick attached. Not sure why that would change if they happened to have more $$ laying around.

[BlackSox13]

St. Louis Cardinals RUMORS: Dexter Fowler Signing Still Under Consideration Following Loss Of Jason Heyward?

 

The St. Louis Cardinals lost two key free agents (Jason Heyward and John Lackey) to the Chicago Cubs earlier this offseason. They gained two draft picks (33rd and 34th overall) for the losses, but that's not going to improve their 2016 MLB roster

 

http://www.hngn.com/articles/177046/201602...son-heyward.htm

 

This makes alot of sense for the Cards. The Cards first over all pick would only slide down 8 spots (25 to 33) while gaining Fowler.

[bmags]

Is Holliday still demanding he be an OF?

[harfman77]

http://www.hngn.com/articles/177046/201602...son-heyward.htm

 

This makes alot of sense for the Cards. The Cards first over all pick would only slide down 8 spots (25 to 33) while gaining Fowler.

 

Yes, it makes sense, gives them insurance for Piscotty and Holiday injuries and more of a true CF than anything the Cardinals have now.

[harfman77]

Is Holliday still demanding he be an OF?

 

Where else could they play him? Can't really put Adams in the OF.

[caulfield12]

Depends on how confident they are in Piscotty and Grichuk.

 

Plus, losing two players to the Cubs, turnabout is fair play.

[fathom]

How do we know the Sox weren't lying at Soxfest with regards to their plans, and they actually do have absolutely no money to spend to upgrades? I would love to be wrong, but I would have done the same thing if I was Hahn and dealt with the angry fan base coming into that weekend. If he simply said "we're done, no upgrades as we're at our budget", that would have created more animosity.