Orioles DO NOT Sign Fowler

[southsider2k5]

Really makes you wonder if they ever even had a plan honestly. I mean, KW sure made it sound like Hahn wasnt prepared earlier this offseason. I have no idea what this FO is doing anymore, and it's really tough to rationalize why I continue to give them so much of my time and energy. I wish the Bears were good so I didnt need to agonize over the Sox all winter.

 

Theo Epstein almost used the exact same words about his front office a week after Kenny Williams did. Again, that statement was read into by fans for way more than what was really being said.

[fathom]

who thought that? Certainly wasn't the projection systems that had them at 76-78 wins. This year I've seen them lowest at 82 and highest at 88. They are better on paper now then any time in the last few years.

 

There was a lot of talk about them being a playoff contender prior to last year. Even this quick search finds an article with them having quite a few projections for winning AL Central or making the WC:

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview15/story/_/i...2015-mlb-season

Edited February 18, 2016 by fathom

[royoung]

I think many took those KW comments out of context. He wasn't throwing Hahn under a bus, he was saying he was still gathering information. The reality is they didn't pay much of a price to upgrade at cather. Lawrie didn't cost much. Frazier cost some prospects, but considering the lack of 3B in MLB, it wasn't a really high price to pay. Latos at $3 million was nothing. Jones will be farther from surgery and around on day 1. They have paid a minimal price for their upgrades. I can understand why they didn't sing Gordon or Cespedes or Upton. Those guys went places where if the Sox matched those contracts, they were staying there. In Upton's case, Detroit probably would have gone as high as it had to go. Gordon wasn't leaving KC unless the Sox offer was significantly better, and Cespedes would probably have cost at least $30 million for the 2016 season. If Fowler gets 3/$45 million, I can accept them not signing him. But if it is 2/$25 million or something like that, I'm sorry, that is something you cannot pass up if you are going for it and don't want to waste Sale/Abreu etc. prime years.

 

I agree with this. It sounded like Gordon and Cespedes just used the Sox/others as leverage to get the deal they wanted from their incumbent clubs. We would of been outbid by Mike Ilitch for Upton and perhaps the Sox don't see Fowler and his lackluster splits against RHP's as a worthy investment.

 

The reality for a team like the White Sox that strongly values financial flexibility is any kind of major free agent signing is going to have to be a perfect fit. A good example is Jose Abreu. They acted aggressively and decisively in his pursuit, outbidding several other clubs.

[chitownsportsfan]

I agree with this. It sounded like Gordon and Cespedes just used the Sox/others as leverage to get the deal they wanted from their incumbent clubs. We would of been outbid by Mike Ilitch for Upton and perhaps the Sox don't see Fowler and his lackluster splits against RHP's as a worthy investment.

 

The reality for a team like the White Sox that strongly values financial flexibility is any kind of major free agent signing is going to have to be a perfect fit. A good example is Jose Abreu. They acted aggressively and decisively in his pursuit, outbidding several other clubs.

 

That's a nice way of putting their inability or unwillingness to hand out large FA contracts. That said, I don't see the point in beating that dead horse. It is what it is. I'm not going to root for a new team and the Sox aren't going to turn into the Tigers, just the way it is. Maybe when JR sells but until then they will be run at least most of the time -- as a business with a hard cap on payroll.

 

[Dunt]

my goodness. Where were you in 13-15 then? Those teams were much worse on paper and the system was consistently dead last in MLB. As I've continually said, the ORG Hahn inherited was arguably in dead last in overall system talent: international, minors, and MLB.

 

Now they are clearly middle tier without significantly mortgaging the future. Overall, they've done a decent job. Not a great job, but not a bad one either.

 

At games, posting here. I knew what they were then and had much different expectations. There is no excuse not to finish the job at this point though. They have far too much top end talent to not being going after it harder. That doesnt mean they need to trade the likes of Anderson or Fulmer or even Adams, but there were incremental upgrades there to strengthen this team. Sure they've done a decent job, I would even go as far to say that I've liked every move theyve made this offseason. Not replacing Avi though deserves an incomplete final grade. He's been an absolute butcher in every facet of the game.

[chitownsportsfan]

At games, posting here. I knew what they were then and had much different expectations. There is no excuse not to finish the job at this point though. They have far too much top end talent to not being going after it harder. That doesnt mean they need to trade the likes of Anderson or Fulmer or even Adams, but there were incremental upgrades there to strengthen this team. Sure they've done a decent job, I would even go as far to say that I've liked every move theyve made this offseason. Not replacing Avi though deserves an incomplete final grade. He's been an absolute butcher in every facet of the game.

 

I can understand this. It's been a long time in the wilderness.

[bmags]

I agree with this. It sounded like Gordon and Cespedes just used the Sox/others as leverage to get the deal they wanted from their incumbent clubs. We would of been outbid by Mike Ilitch for Upton and perhaps the Sox don't see Fowler and his lackluster splits against RHP's as a worthy investment.

 

The reality for a team like the White Sox that strongly values financial flexibility is any kind of major free agent signing is going to have to be a perfect fit. A good example is Jose Abreu. They acted aggressively and decisively in his pursuit, outbidding several other clubs.

 

This whole "used as leverage" thing I think is weak rationalizing. If we knew the sox truly offered more, then they were used as leverage. If we were just offering "deals" that were comparable or less than what they received, than they chose us because we didn't offer the best deal, not because we were used. If Sox offered 3/90 for Cespedes, he would have signed here. If we offered 4/90 for Gordon (what we all thought he'd get pre-offseason), you'd have Gordon in LF. But just because they went back to their teams does not mean that their FA was an illusion like Lebron to MIA.

[Thad Bosley]

If you are Rick Hahn, are you willing to go to Jerry Reinsdorf and the Board of Directors and tell them that Dexter Fowler is the guy you need to put you over the top?

That might be an easier conversation to have than trying to explain how this team is going to compete with Avisail Garcia as it's starting rightfielder.

[southsider2k5]

That might be an easier conversation to have than trying to explain how this team is going to compete with Avisail Garcia as it's starting rightfielder.

 

Not really. The bottom line is to put out $30 or $40 million as a "last piece" kind of signing, you had better be able to tell your bosses that it would make the difference.

[royoung]

This whole "used as leverage" thing I think is weak rationalizing. If we knew the sox truly offered more, then they were used as leverage. If we were just offering "deals" that were comparable or less than what they received, than they chose us because we didn't offer the best deal, not because we were used. If Sox offered 3/90 for Cespedes, he would have signed here. If we offered 4/90 for Gordon (what we all thought he'd get pre-offseason), you'd have Gordon in LF. But just because they went back to their teams does not mean that their FA was an illusion like Lebron to MIA.

 

That is a fair and accurate point. What you described would of required the Sox to pay above (the current, not projected) market for a player they may or may not been all that excited about. I am not saying it was the right or wrong move, but they were clearly committed to only offering what they felt comfortable with.

[Eminor3rd]

This whole "used as leverage" thing I think is weak rationalizing. If we knew the sox truly offered more, then they were used as leverage. If we were just offering "deals" that were comparable or less than what they received, than they chose us because we didn't offer the best deal, not because we were used. If Sox offered 3/90 for Cespedes, he would have signed here. If we offered 4/90 for Gordon (what we all thought he'd get pre-offseason), you'd have Gordon in LF. But just because they went back to their teams does not mean that their FA was an illusion like Lebron to MIA.

 

Exactly. And both of those deals would have been considered very reasonable deals.

[royoung]

This whole "used as leverage" thing I think is weak rationalizing. If we knew the sox truly offered more, then they were used as leverage. If we were just offering "deals" that were comparable or less than what they received, than they chose us because we didn't offer the best deal, not because we were used. If Sox offered 3/90 for Cespedes, he would have signed here. If we offered 4/90 for Gordon (what we all thought he'd get pre-offseason), you'd have Gordon in LF. But just because they went back to their teams does not mean that their FA was an illusion like Lebron to MIA.

 

Do you believe Gordon or Cespedes would of signed with the Sox if they would of matched the respective offers they accepted from their incumbent clubs?

[Eminor3rd]

Do you believe Gordon or Cespedes would of signed with the Sox if they would of matched the respective offers they accepted from their incumbent clubs?

 

Absolutely not.

[southsider2k5]

This whole "used as leverage" thing I think is weak rationalizing. If we knew the sox truly offered more, then they were used as leverage. If we were just offering "deals" that were comparable or less than what they received, than they chose us because we didn't offer the best deal, not because we were used. If Sox offered 3/90 for Cespedes, he would have signed here. If we offered 4/90 for Gordon (what we all thought he'd get pre-offseason), you'd have Gordon in LF. But just because they went back to their teams does not mean that their FA was an illusion like Lebron to MIA.

 

Not really. If KC was only offering 3/50 at that point, but the White Sox offer came in and forced them to go higher, plus Gordon never really had interest in going where but KC if he could help it, then that is the textbook definition of leverage.

[chitownsportsfan]

Not really. If KC was only offering 3/50 at that point, but the White Sox offer came in and forced them to go higher, plus Gordon never really had interest in going where but KC if he could help it, then that is the textbook definition of leverage.

 

Likely scenario from the Royals was "tell us when you get a serious offer and we'll do our best to match it". Likely scenario from the Sox: "here's what we can offer if you get a better offer come back and we'll see what we can do".

 

At that point the Royals outbid anything the Sox could put out and that was that. I agree it was a classic case of using other others to set your salary range and then eventually coming back to the place it made the most sense for both sides (for both the royals and gordon) to sign.

[bmags]

Not really. If KC was only offering 3/50 at that point, but the White Sox offer came in and forced them to go higher, plus Gordon never really had interest in going where but KC if he could help it, then that is the textbook definition of leverage.

 

Well, I disagree. The White Sox had a chance to exceed that offer and did not, and I've seen nothing that indicates our offer was better than Kansas City. I am sure Gordon did want to stay in KC, but offering him a better deal to play with you (your "could help it" scenario) I am confident would have swayed him.

[bmags]

Likely scenario from the Royals was "tell us when you get a serious offer and we'll do our best to match it". Likely scenario from the Sox: "here's what we can offer if you get a better offer come back and we'll see what we can do".

 

At that point the Royals outbid anything the Sox could put out and that was that. I agree it was a classic case of using other others to set your salary range and then eventually coming back to the place it made the most sense for both sides (for both the royals and gordon) to sign.

 

White Sox probably shouldn't be relying on free agency to improve their team if this is their scenario with every free agent, especially when their signing price ends up lower than market expected.

[southsider2k5]

Well, I disagree. The White Sox had a chance to exceed that offer and did not, and I've seen nothing that indicates our offer was better than Kansas City. I am sure Gordon did want to stay in KC, but offering him a better deal to play with you (your "could help it" scenario) I am confident would have swayed him.

 

Our final offer didn't have to be better. All we had to do was force another team to improve their offer or offers. It doesn't matter how much our final offer was for. If Gordon was only interested in our offers to improve his KC offer, we were being used.

[Leonard Zelig]

Was't it reported that both Gordon & Cespedes turned down larger offers (not necessarily from the White Sox)??

[southsider2k5]

Was't it reported that both Gordon & Cespedes turned down larger offers (not necessarily from the White Sox)??

 

We know Cespedes had a 5 year $100 million offer from Washington which included deferred money and opt outs of some sort.

[bmags]

Our final offer didn't have to be better. All we had to do was force another team to improve their offer or offers. It doesn't matter how much our final offer was for. If Gordon was only interested in our offers to improve his KC offer, we were being used.

 

It does matter. Because we were negotiating for a free agent who is allowed to choose the best offer. If we aren't prepared to give the best offer, we shouldn't rely on free agency to fill all of our holes every year. It tends to require money.

[caulfield12]

Not getting how now we're retroactively saying the talent to begin last season was so bad and that we're also simultaneously well more than one more player away from contending. Can't be both.

 

Pick a lane and stay with it.

 

With all the parity in the AL, muddling through is not going to get it done. Waiting for the obvious rebuilding teams or Astros/Dodgers to make trades in July is also riskier because more mid-market teams are willing to take two month financial risks and/or have the talent in the minors to part with (let's say the Twins go out and rent a stud starter to put them over the top).

 

If we're in a situation where we can add 2-3 war quite affordably NOW and that's still not enough after all the moves we made, why start down that road in the first place? So we can argue for another 2-3 months that White Sox fans are more responsible than the front office for this state of affairs? Are there are any AL teams that we couldn't imagine strongly contending by adding Desmond/Fowler/Gallardo (two of the three, based on need)?

 

In our division, with two teams 100% going for it over the next two seasons and two more teams with better farm systems and the ability to be patient one more year (especially Minnesota), this plan is just pretty dubious.

 

I guess if it's a similar situation to anyone, it's probably Cleveland. The primary difference is we have 25-30% more budget leeway than the Indians because our ability to generate revenue is that much higher due to the Chicago media market. Once again, though, being in the middle and 500ish is not the place to be...where it still feels like constant rebuilding (rather than contending consistently) without admitting that semantic fact openly.

Edited February 18, 2016 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Cespedes supposedly turned down larger offers from multiple teams. Nothing was reported like that on Gordon as far as I know.

Cespedes turned down a larger total offer, at least from the Nats, but in return he got a 1 year optout with a high first year salary. Another MVP type season this year and he'll have turned that into a fortune.

[caulfield12]

Was it the Orioles or Nats trying to defer a significant part of that salary on the back-end for Cespedes?

 

 

[shipps]

Cespedes turned down a larger total offer, at least from the Nats, but in return he got a 1 year optout with a high first year salary. Another MVP type season this year and he'll have turned that into a fortune.

 

The Nats offer was a fortune and he wouldnt have to put up MVP numbers again to receive it. But they are on a whole other planet when it comes to business decisions then where I am. LOL