Why is all the focus ONLY on RF?

[VAfan]

For months now this site and others in Sox fandom have obsessed about replacements for Avi Garcia. I believe the obsession was much larger than discussions over replacements for Sanchez at 2B, or whatever mystery man was going to play 3B. The non-tendering of both Tyler Flowers and Alexei Ramirez seemed to catch many by surprise. There was very little discussion of deepening the starting rotation before Mat Latos was plucked off the free agent pile. And how much has been written about Adam LaRoche's pathetic 2015??

 

Yet, let's just take one offensive statistic to see how things shook out in 2015. OPS+

 

Catcher - Tyler Flowers 82

Second base - Carlos Sanchez 66

Third base - Tyler Saladino 68

Shortstop - Alexei Ramirez 79

Designated hitter - Adam LaRoche 78

 

That's 5 positions that didn't get nearly the attention that RF has, and yet Avisail Garcia put up the 4th best OPS+ number on the 2015 team.

 

Right field - Avisail Garcia 89

 

Only Melky Cabrera 97, Adam Eaton 122, and Jose Abreu 135 were better. And I think everyone would agree that Cabrera seriously underperformed.

 

Now I understand there is also the sub-par defensive aspect to Garcia's game, so to focus solely on OPS+ is not to grasp the gravity of his weakness.

 

It just seems to me that it's a horse that has been beaten to death a thousand times more than it should have been. Especially since Garcia has at least some possibility of improving. I mean, in limited action, he put up a 105 OPS+ in 2014, and a 109 in 2013. So who's to say there is no possibility of him returning to better offensive numbers. His first half of 2015 scored a 97, which is the same as Melky's numbers for the whole season.

 

While all this ink -- page after page about Upton, Cespedes, Gordon, Eithier, Fowler, et al -- was spilled on finding a replacement for Avi, Rick Hahn went about plugging the holes at most of the positions that should have been HIGHER PRIORITIES.

 

Catcher -- Flowers out, and two new catchers in.

Second base -- Brett Lawrie

Third base -- Todd Frazier

Shortstop -- Jimmy Rollins

 

The catching position has to be better, even if Avila had a bad year last year. Second base is worlds better offensively. Third base is a MASSIVE improvement. Shortstop could be better, even if only marginally.

 

Where I think the Sox have dropped the ball as much as they have with Avi is at DH. We know that LaRoche was horrible last year, especially against lefties. And I also know many hoped the replacement outfielder would shift Avi into a DH platoon with LaRoche. But why don't the Sox sign someone like Ryan Raburn? He absolutely murdered lefties last year. Why not the clamoring for him to be added?

 

Don't get me wrong. I would have liked the Sox to replace Avi in RF as much as anyone. I thought Cespedes would have made the biggest impact since he's really helped his teams win, and been proven in the AL. But if for whatever reason (unjustified or not) you decide to try to patch up the team on the cheap, then I'm not sure the Sox have totally blown it with their approach.

 

If they added a guy like Raburn for a couple million, they would stand a much better chance of fielding a capable DH duo, assuming LaRoche will stand a better chance of rebounding if he only has to face right handers.

 

And that would leave them with Avi Garcia in RF, exposed for all to see and ridicule. Or to hope for some level of performance that wouldn't sink the team if all the other areas were performing at levels they were supposed to meet.

 

In other words, it's NOT all about Right Field for the 2016 White Sox.

Edited February 24, 2016 by VAfan

[caulfield12]

 

The main thing is that OPS+ number doesn't account for defense, and since there's now such a huge swing towards WAR evaluation, the fact that he's around a 0 means even a pretty decent level of offensive improvement (which isn't guaranteed) leaves him at a 0.75-1.50 number.

 

As far as LaRoche goes, the effort to dump him on the Pirates for pennies on the dollar and his current status is solely about budgets and soft payroll ceilings. It certainly seems LaRoche is going to be given the opportunity to hit for at least 2-3 months, and maybe even be the full-time DH, whether the fans like it or not. So perhaps not focusing on LaRoche is more about that frustration (and the lack of desire to argue about it) and the fact that fans have come up with the concept of combining Avi and LaRoche into one DH and removing him from the outfield altogether, where he does the most damage to his WAR and team defense/DRS.

 

So it's not anything to do with favoring LaRoche, certainly, but more to do with the fact that it was EASY to imagine a 2-3-4 WAR improvement in one fell swoop with the addition of a Justin Upton/Cespedes/Gordon.

 

Because DH doesn't lend itself to those dramatic swings because of the point correction for being only a hitter, the positive correction for improving DH with a platoon in the world of WAR means only a 1 game correction, rather than the 2-4 many were hoping/expecting with a replacement for Garcia.

 

And another part of it's probably Garcia's age, the fact that he was getting booed at SoxFest, fans genuinely seem to like him and maybe they feel a change of scenery trade with a non-contending team would be best. And we know that LaRoche isn't going anywhere until he re-establishes himself as an offensive presence, which would of course make it more unlikely that we would trade him with his contract expiring this year (unless we're out of the race again).

 

 

[Dunt]

The difference between Avi and those guys is that Avi has no average to above average skills. With those other guys, they atleast do something well. It's not even that they didn't replace Avi, it's that they haven't even brought in anybody to challenge him.

[caulfield12]

Arm strength....but that's not enough to cancel out the other defensive issues.

[BlackSox13]

Of all three outfielders, Avi in RF is the obvious upgrade. It's not only that SoxTalk memebers are looking to upgrade RF, that's a misconception, it's that we all want to see an upgrade in the outfield and RF is the weakest link so RF is the focal point. Many scenarios by numerous SoxTalk members have been discussed this off season including adding players such as Austin Jackson or Dexter Fowler to play CF and move Eaton to RF. The Sox have been recently rumored to be looking for an outfielder that can play CF and the Sox also talked with Eaton at the end of last season about the possibility of shifting him to one of the corner OF spots.

 

I actually prefer finding a CF and moving Eaton to one of the corners but if the Sox find a LHB for RF I'll happily take that upgrade.

Edited February 24, 2016 by BlackSox13

[caulfield12]

Austin...unless the Mariners' Jackson has had a breakthrough.

[BlackSox13]

Austin...unless the Mariners' Jackson has had a breakthrough.

Lol, thanks for pointing that out. Alex is now Austin.

[shysocks]

While all this ink -- page after page about Upton, Cespedes, Gordon, Eithier, Fowler, et al -- was spilled on finding a replacement for Avi, Rick Hahn went about plugging the holes at most of the positions that should have been HIGHER PRIORITIES.

Before those positions were filled, a lot of people wanted the Sox to sell and rebuild. Once they filled those positions (weeks and weeks ago) and set the compass towards contending, that's when the focus of the board turned towards finding an outfielder. Rick Hahn even went out in interviews and said they were looking to add an outfielder.

[Saufley]

The main thing is that OPS+ number doesn't account for defense, and since there's now such a huge swing towards WAR evaluation, the fact that he's around a 0 means even a pretty decent level of offensive improvement (which isn't guaranteed) leaves him at a 0.75-1.50 number.

 

As far as LaRoche goes, the effort to dump him on the Pirates for pennies on the dollar and his current status is solely about budgets and soft payroll ceilings. It certainly seems LaRoche is going to be given the opportunity to hit for at least 2-3 months, and maybe even be the full-time DH, whether the fans like it or not. So perhaps not focusing on LaRoche is more about that frustration (and the lack of desire to argue about it) and the fact that fans have come up with the concept of combining Avi and LaRoche into one DH and removing him from the outfield altogether, where he does the most damage to his WAR and team defense/DRS.

 

So it's not anything to do with favoring LaRoche, certainly, but more to do with the fact that it was EASY to imagine a 2-3-4 WAR improvement in one fell swoop with the addition of a Justin Upton/Cespedes/Gordon.

 

Because DH doesn't lend itself to those dramatic swings because of the point correction for being only a hitter, the positive correction for improving DH with a platoon in the world of WAR means only a 1 game correction, rather than the 2-4 many were hoping/expecting with a replacement for Garcia.

 

And another part of it's probably Garcia's age, the fact that he was getting booed at SoxFest, fans genuinely seem to like him and maybe they feel a change of scenery trade with a non-contending team would be best. And we know that LaRoche isn't going anywhere until he re-establishes himself as an offensive presence, which would of course make it more unlikely that we would trade him with his contract expiring this year (unless we're out of the race again).

 

I would like to see LaRoche in the lineup almost everyday during ST. This guy has so much to prove this year. I can't imagine the Sox are going to let him skate through ST.

 

[Eminor3rd]

C, 2B, and 3B were addressed quickly in the offseason. DH is difficult to replace because you'd be forced to bench or DFA the $13m attached to LaRoche. Between SS and RF, the former is a bad bat with plus defense, while the latter is a bad bat with bad defense. So if you have to replace one, it's the RF.

[GreenSox]

To answer your question, because AVi is a young player and the conventional wisdom is that the chances of a young player improving are less than the chances of an aging veteran not only stopping the decline, but reversing it.

It's been the practice of this org for years, and we, well, see the results.

 

That doesn't apply to pitchers, as long as the pitcher is Cooper-certified. They trust him.

Edited February 24, 2016 by GreenSox

[VAfan]

Not sure anyone has really grappled with my point. That it's like 100-1 in ink about RF versus discussions about the rest of the team.

 

A whole lot of White Sox players underperformed last year, not just Avi Garcia.

 

Adam LaRoche not only sank the team offensively, he tied up payroll that could have been spent this year on a contract like Dexter Fowler's.

 

Melky Cabrera was SO bad early, and even though he got hot in the middle, ended up with a very down year. Not to mention that his splits, which used to be pretty equal from both side of the plate, dropped off a cliff against left handers. When you add in that LaRoche was a zero against lefties, and Abreu had a bad year against them, it made the Sox particularly weak against southpaws. Melky also helped sour the White Sox brass on free agent contracts, I believe.

 

Sanchez, Saladino, Beckham, Bonafacio, Olt, Gillaspie, Ramirez, Flowers. These are all guys who got plenty of ABs (not so much Bonafacio) and were TERRIBLE offensively.

 

On the pitching side, Shark was awful, Danks was his usual pretty-bad self and without the offensive support had a bad W-L record. Robertson had 5 losses and plenty of blown saves. None of the main bullpen guys had an ERA under 3.41. Even Chris Sale had an ERA of 3.41. So the great pitching we are supposed to have never really materialized.

 

I guess I'm just tired of reading AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI all the time, when he's only 1 player. If the team around him performed up to expectations, the Sox could absolutely win with Avi in RF.

[LDF]

Not sure anyone has really grappled with my point. That it's like 100-1 in ink about RF versus discussions about the rest of the team.

 

A whole lot of White Sox players underperformed last year, not just Avi Garcia.

 

Adam LaRoche not only sank the team offensively, he tied up payroll that could have been spent this year on a contract like Dexter Fowler's.

 

Melky Cabrera was SO bad early, and even though he got hot in the middle, ended up with a very down year. Not to mention that his splits, which used to be pretty equal from both side of the plate, dropped off a cliff against left handers. When you add in that LaRoche was a zero against lefties, and Abreu had a bad year against them, it made the Sox particularly weak against southpaws. Melky also helped sour the White Sox brass on free agent contracts, I believe.

 

Sanchez, Saladino, Beckham, Bonafacio, Olt, Gillaspie, Ramirez, Flowers. These are all guys who got plenty of ABs (not so much Bonafacio) and were TERRIBLE offensively.

 

On the pitching side, Shark was awful, Danks was his usual pretty-bad self and without the offensive support had a bad W-L record. Robertson had 5 losses and plenty of blown saves. None of the main bullpen guys had an ERA under 3.41. Even Chris Sale had an ERA of 3.41. So the great pitching we are supposed to have never really materialized.

 

I guess I'm just tired of reading AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI all the time, when he's only 1 player. If the team around him performed up to expectations, the Sox could absolutely win with Avi in RF.

 

and you made your point, i agree, for me, the front office didn't help matters. by putting him front and center at soxfest. this tell me the sox have lost any and all sense with the fans. whom ever the sox have to gage the temperature screwed up, they should have skipped him and let him have a positive time this season. to get his new swing and hit, and hit and hit. reestablish his worth to the fans.

[TheFutureIsNear]

There are $10M or so reasons that most are talking about replacing Avi and not Laroche. Laroche's contract is going to earn him another shot over Avi, like it or not. And while he has little to no value, other teams will take Avi and his contract. No one wants Laroche and his hefty salary.

[LDF]

There are $10M or so reasons that most are talking about replacing Avi and not Laroche. Laroche's contract is going to earn him another shot over Avi, like it or not. And while he has little to no value, other teams will take Avi and his contract. No one wants Laroche and his hefty salary.

 

you are correct, laroche is the sore thumb here. but nothing can be done, esp in trading with a hefty ck to go with him.

 

i really do like Avi potential to show if he has a major league bat, and that is why i was really content to use him as a platoon at dh, but an OF'er is needed esp for the defense.

[VAfan]

There are $10M or so reasons that most are talking about replacing Avi and not Laroche. Laroche's contract is going to earn him another shot over Avi, like it or not. And while he has little to no value, other teams will take Avi and his contract. No one wants Laroche and his hefty salary.

 

Except the issue is not so much replacing LaRoche, given that the Sox aren't eager to eat that much contract (if they did, then John Danks could be the odd one out in the Latos, Johnson, Danks "competition"), but finding the RH platoon for him. Once Thompson was traded, that solution went west. Jerry Sands? Doesn't seem viable to me. Avi? Only if a full time OF is had. So why not a guy like Ryan Raburn? Not too expensive. Much more reliable than someone like Sands. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox make this kind of move.

 

 

[dmbjeff]

LaRoche at least has a track record of MLB success. Yes, last year was painful to watch, but he could rebound to put up similar numbers as he did in 2014, In fact, dating back to 2010, LaRoche has been great in even numbered years and down years in odd numbered ones, so maybe he is due in 2016. Most Sox fans trust LaRoche to bounceback more than they trust Avi to figure it out.

 

Avi gets mentioned repeatedly because he has never ever had MLB success, EVER. Even in the minors, Avi had a .736 OPS in over 2400 AB's. If that's what he produced in the minors, it should be no wonder why he can't get over .700 OPS in the majors. It's not just the offensive numbers with him either. It's the awful baserunning, awful defense, awful decision making. He just isn't that great. Just because he has a body type that resembles Miguel Cabrera, doesn't make him Miguel Cabrera.

 

That is the whole reason everyone has been calling for the Sox to find a replacement for Avi as a regular and maximize Avi's and LaRoche's worth by having them split DH duties as a platoon.

[LDF]

LaRoche at least has a track record of MLB success. Yes, last year was painful to watch, but he could rebound to put up similar numbers as he did in 2014, In fact, dating back to 2010, LaRoche has been great in even numbered years and down years in odd numbered ones, so maybe he is due in 2016. Most Sox fans trust LaRoche to bounceback more than they trust Avi to figure it out.

 

Avi gets mentioned repeatedly because he has never ever had MLB success, EVER. Even in the minors, Avi had a .736 OPS in over 2400 AB's. If that's what he produced in the minors, it should be no wonder why he can't get over .700 OPS in the majors. It's not just the offensive numbers with him either. It's the awful baserunning, awful defense, awful decision making. He just isn't that great. Just because he has a body type that resembles Miguel Cabrera, doesn't make him Miguel Cabrera.

 

That is the whole reason everyone has been calling for the Sox to find a replacement for Avi as a regular and maximize Avi's and LaRoche's worth by having them split DH duties as a platoon.

 

a nice post,

 

ref the bold, that is crux of the whole thing that some posters are talking about, get a defensive replacement OF'er and yes, utilize Avi as a platoon. to give him every chance to prove his worth just by batting in key situations.

[Lemon_44]

Avi is going to have a good year. LaRoche is garbage. If they would both have good years, the Sox can contend.

[WBWSF]

Avi is going to have a GREAT year. The entire White Sox team is going to have a GREAT year in 2016. The 2016 White Sox are going to the 2016 Playoffs. They will be the only Chicago team to reach the 2016 Playoffs.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Not sure anyone has really grappled with my point. That it's like 100-1 in ink about RF versus discussions about the rest of the team.

 

A whole lot of White Sox players underperformed last year, not just Avi Garcia.

 

Adam LaRoche not only sank the team offensively, he tied up payroll that could have been spent this year on a contract like Dexter Fowler's.

 

Melky Cabrera was SO bad early, and even though he got hot in the middle, ended up with a very down year. Not to mention that his splits, which used to be pretty equal from both side of the plate, dropped off a cliff against left handers. When you add in that LaRoche was a zero against lefties, and Abreu had a bad year against them, it made the Sox particularly weak against southpaws. Melky also helped sour the White Sox brass on free agent contracts, I believe.

 

Sanchez, Saladino, Beckham, Bonafacio, Olt, Gillaspie, Ramirez, Flowers. These are all guys who got plenty of ABs (not so much Bonafacio) and were TERRIBLE offensively.

 

On the pitching side, Shark was awful, Danks was his usual pretty-bad self and without the offensive support had a bad W-L record. Robertson had 5 losses and plenty of blown saves. None of the main bullpen guys had an ERA under 3.41. Even Chris Sale had an ERA of 3.41. So the great pitching we are supposed to have never really materialized.

 

I guess I'm just tired of reading AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI all the time, when he's only 1 player. If the team around him performed up to expectations, the Sox could absolutely win with Avi in RF.

 

 

The Sox led the AL in fWAR last year as a starting staff. That was with Danks/Samardzija in it. I think the White Sox and Indians have the best rotations in the AL. That is a strength that is being underrated quite a bit in my opinion.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Avi is going to have a GREAT year. The entire White Sox team is going to have a GREAT year in 2016. The 2016 White Sox are going to the 2016 Playoffs. They will be the only Chicago team to reach the 2016 Playoffs.

Love the optimism. I hope you're right.

 

If the Sox can somehow find a way to make the playoffs, I think they have a good chance of making a run. The top 3 in the rotation can match up with just about any other team and having Sale in an Elimination Game or Game 7 would give the Sox a good shot to win any game they need to.

 

Sale could be matched up against any other ace in baseball and I'd still be confident about the Sox winning that particular game.

[Eminor3rd]

Not sure anyone has really grappled with my point. That it's like 100-1 in ink about RF versus discussions about the rest of the team.

 

A whole lot of White Sox players underperformed last year, not just Avi Garcia.

 

Adam LaRoche not only sank the team offensively, he tied up payroll that could have been spent this year on a contract like Dexter Fowler's.

 

Melky Cabrera was SO bad early, and even though he got hot in the middle, ended up with a very down year. Not to mention that his splits, which used to be pretty equal from both side of the plate, dropped off a cliff against left handers. When you add in that LaRoche was a zero against lefties, and Abreu had a bad year against them, it made the Sox particularly weak against southpaws. Melky also helped sour the White Sox brass on free agent contracts, I believe.

 

Sanchez, Saladino, Beckham, Bonafacio, Olt, Gillaspie, Ramirez, Flowers. These are all guys who got plenty of ABs (not so much Bonafacio) and were TERRIBLE offensively.

 

On the pitching side, Shark was awful, Danks was his usual pretty-bad self and without the offensive support had a bad W-L record. Robertson had 5 losses and plenty of blown saves. None of the main bullpen guys had an ERA under 3.41. Even Chris Sale had an ERA of 3.41. So the great pitching we are supposed to have never really materialized.

 

I guess I'm just tired of reading AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI all the time, when he's only 1 player. If the team around him performed up to expectations, the Sox could absolutely win with Avi in RF.

 

With all due respect, I think you're missing OUR point. It isn't about hating Avi, it's that Avi has been the easiest major problem to fix for practically the entire offseason. Avi himself doesn't deserve anymore blame for 2015 than LaRoche, but if you look at the available upgrades across the league and factor in their salaries, a focus on upgrading in RF was clearly the best choice.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

The Sox led the AL in fWAR last year as a starting staff. That was with Danks/Samardzija in it. I think the White Sox and Indians have the best rotations in the AL. That is a strength that is being underrated quite a bit in my opinion.

We also had a historically bad position player group. Frazier & Lawrie are nice upgrades, but we're still relying on too many players to rebound/improve next year. Melky, LaRoche, & Avi combined for a -2.8 fWAR and we haven't added one player to push them for playing time. Saladino and/or Rollins are likely an upgrade at SS, but the question is how much? Same goes for C. Our team is better and I think we can possibly contend as is, but a lot of things would have to go right, including near perfect health from our pitching staff. Adding a guy like Jackson just makes too much sense, as he provides more value to the team than his indivual WAR contribution. He allows Eaton to slide over to RF, improving the OF defense significantly. He also allows Avi to start the season in a bench/platoon role pushing LaRoche and possibly Melky for playing time. Honestly, I don't know what Hahn is thinking if he doesn't add another OF, because this division is very winnable with one more move.

[OmarComing25]

Through the first two months of the season last year, Avi had an OPS north of .800, yet had accumulated a WAR of only 0.5 through 1/3 of the season due to his bad defense and baserunning. So even at an absolute best-case scenario at the plate, Avi's ceiling is about 1.5 WAR, which is below average, and would still have us seeking an upgrade. That is the best-case scenario. As others have pointed out, he's never had success, and while Melky and LaRoche were equally responsible for last year's disappointing team performance, they at least have both had a track record of success and were good as recently as 2014. There's a much higher chance of those two being positive contributors in 2016 than Avi, and with the bountiful options to upgrade RF that were available this offseason it was the easiest move to make to improve the team.