Loaiza Sick on Tuesday!

[elrockinMT]

The news reports I am reading on last nights game indicate that Esteban was sick with flu like syptoms and looked lethargic, etc, etc

 

Why in the world was he put out there on the mound trying to pitch with no energy or strength? Garland was in line for the start. Prior to the game a person could understand wanting to put your best pitcher out there, but why in the world, when you knew he was ill would you throw him out there and expect him to exert and compete with everything he's got with nothing in the tank?

 

I have had my momnets with second guessing managerial decision this year because that's the luxury of arm chair managing, but for crying out loud when a guy is sick and can't give it 100% in a pennant race you hold him out for a game or so till he is ready. It's not like we didn't have an option. Jon Galand was in line for the start.

[CubKilla]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

[Steff]

Ya know what... when I'm sick I don't come to work and hope that my boss sees me and says "Gee Steff.. do you need to go home? Why don't you take the day off?" He should have opened his mouth to his MANAGER and not every other Tom, Dick, and DJ that would listen to him. Obviously Jerry was NOT made aware that the situation was as bad as it was. Who's responsibility was it to inform him...? I don't think Jerry has ESP. If he had been told that Loaiza was as sick as he was I'd bet he would have switched starts.

 

Blame Jerry, blame Jerry, blame Jerry... yawn.

[southsider2k5]

Thing is, because the offense didn't score anything, it really doesn't matter who pitched. The only potential bright spot is that Loz only threw 76 pitches and might be able to go on 3 days rest.

[Steff]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

[IlliniKrush]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

Exactly. If you can't go, step up and say something. Until i hear "jerry refused relieve Loaiza of his start even when Loaiza told him he was really sick" i'll blame ELo

[elrockinMT]

Ya know what... when I'm sick I don't come to work and hope that my boss sees me and says "Gee Steff.. do you need to go home? Why don't you take the day off?" He should have opened his mouth to his MANAGER and not every other Tom, Dick, and DJ that would listen to him. Obviously Jerry was NOT made aware that the situation was as bad as it was. Who's responsibility was it to inform him...? I don't think Jerry has ESP. If he had been told that Loaiza was as sick as he was I'd bet he would have switched starts.

 

Blame Jerry, blame Jerry, blame Jerry... yawn.

I know Steff that the blame Jerry stuff gets old. I have had my moments but I have given him the benefit of the doubt becasue there are a lot of things that we don't know about when it comes to his making the decisions he does and he is right a lot of the time. I have to wonder if he talks to his players before the game? If pithcing coach Cooper knew it then why didn't he talk to the manager? I know E Lo and the others are top notch and want to compete, but there are times when someone has to step in and say, "not tonight." Someone didn't and I think it cost us a big, big game. Of course if we win tonight and Thursday all of this will matter not. I think the best we could hope for anyway would be 2 out of 3 playing in the garbage dome.

[chosk8]

My guess is that if Loaiza would have come forward and told JM about the severity of his sickness, Garland would not have been pitching last night. Starting pitchers have routines and telling Jon an hour or two before game time and sending him out there could have been more devastating. If some of these guys don't eat the right cereal the morning of their start, they are screwed mentally. My guess is that Wright or Schoeneweis would have spot started. I applaud Loaiza for wanting the ball despite his condition, but at this point in the season and our position in the standings, it was time for him to put his pride in the backseat and hand the ball off to whomever. If you're looking for somewhere to lay the blame, look to the offense. No timely hits. We need to learn how to manufacture runs when we have first and second and nobody out, like last night in the first inning. At no point in the game did I feel we would come back and a 4-0 lead should not be insurmountable. Credit Radke though, 2 games in a row he has had us off balance.

[CubKilla]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

I'm sure Manuel knew. Think about it.

[Harry Chappas]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

Remember when Rick White did this and he was brought in to pitch anyway, I think it was aginst Baltimore. I really think Jerry is on the take. I am serious he makes no good moves. Shouldn't at some point JM say, so how you feel today. Wheather he is serious or not?

[Steff]

Ya know what... when I'm sick I don't come to work and hope that my boss sees me and says "Gee Steff.. do you need to go home? Why don't you take the day off?" He should have opened his mouth to his MANAGER and not every other Tom, Dick, and DJ that would listen to him. Obviously Jerry was NOT made aware that the situation was as bad as it was. Who's responsibility was it to inform him...? I don't think Jerry has ESP. If he had been told that Loaiza was as sick as he was I'd bet he would have switched starts.

 

Blame Jerry, blame Jerry, blame Jerry... yawn.

I know Steff that the blame Jerry stuff gets old. I have had my moments but I have given him the benefit of the doubt becasue there are a lot of things that we don't know about when it comes to his making the decisions he does and he is right a lot of the time. I have to wonder if he talks to his players before the game? If pithcing coach Cooper knew it then why didn't he talk to the manager? I know E Lo and the others are top notch and want to compete, but there are times when someone has to step in and say, "not tonight." Someone didn't and I think it cost us a big, big game. Of course if we win tonight and Thursday all of this will matter not. I think the best we could hope for anyway would be 2 out of 3 playing in the garbage dome.

I'm sure Cooper DID talk to Jerry. And I'd even bet that Loaiza HIMSELF talked to JM. And ya wanna know what I bet he said....

 

"I'll be OK"

 

 

And killa.. you can take your rolling eyes and stick them where the sun don't shine. Unless you know something we don't.. like if Loaiza told Jerry and Cooper that he was TOO SICK to pitch.. your opinion is just as valid as the rest of ours. And ya know what they say about them anyway...

[CubKilla]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

Remember when Rick White did this and he was brought in to pitch anyway, I think it was aginst Baltimore. I really think Jerry is on the take. I am serious he makes no good moves. Shouldn't at some point JM say, so how you feel today. Wheather he is serious or not?

And people around here are so naive that they figure Loaiza complained about being sick to anyone who'd listen but that not one person, NOT ONE PERSON, that he complained to would go up to JM and say, "ELo said he's deathly ill. Go talk to him about starting tonight."

 

Right.

[chosk8]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

I'm sure Manuel knew. Think about it.

JM probably did know about Loaiza being sick, but not the severity. What's he gonna do at that point? After Cooper tells him, "Esteban had a bad 'pen" or "Esteban is sick", then JM tells him a ½ hour before game time "Well then give the start to Garland". It couldn't be done. Garland wasn't going to pitch last night regardless. Garland was at the ballpark last night with the mindset that he was pitching tomorrow. I would imagine it would have been Wright or Schoeneweis on a spot start.

[IlliniKrush]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

Remember when Rick White did this and he was brought in to pitch anyway, I think it was aginst Baltimore. I really think Jerry is on the take. I am serious he makes no good moves. Shouldn't at some point JM say, so how you feel today. Wheather he is serious or not?

And people around here are so naive that they figure Loaiza complained about being sick to anyone who'd listen but that not one person, NOT ONE PERSON, that he complained to would go up to JM and say, "ELo said he's deathly ill. Go talk to him about starting tonight."

 

Right.

So he wouldn't talk to JM for what reason? Why is it Graffanino's responsibility to tell JM "hey don't start Esteban" when in fact, Esteban might be sick, but still ok to pitch.

[Steff]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

Remember when Rick White did this and he was brought in to pitch anyway, I think it was aginst Baltimore. I really think Jerry is on the take. I am serious he makes no good moves. Shouldn't at some point JM say, so how you feel today. Wheather he is serious or not?

And people around here are so naive that they figure Loaiza complained about being sick to anyone who'd listen but that not one person, NOT ONE PERSON, that he complained to would go up to JM and say, "ELo said he's deathly ill. Go talk to him about starting tonight."

 

Right.

So he wouldn't talk to JM for what reason? Why is it Graffanino's responsibility to tell JM "hey don't start Esteban" when in fact, Esteban might be sick, but still ok to pitch.

Geez.. I'm with you jinx.. errr.. Koch

 

That's pretty cool if Loaiza has a little babysitter like that. Wonder if someone else wipes but butt for him, too...

[Harry Chappas]

What if the genius didn't flip Garland and Loiaza. Who has pitched better over the last month? JM wanted to get a jump, well, poof, that blew up in his face yet again. Kind of like the jump we got in Detroit when we pushed Buerhle back. Maybe we should stick to the rotation. When he thinks we look stupid. Now Garland is pitching for the season, if Garland losses last eve, Loiaza pithces in the bigger game.

[CubKilla]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

Remember when Rick White did this and he was brought in to pitch anyway, I think it was aginst Baltimore. I really think Jerry is on the take. I am serious he makes no good moves. Shouldn't at some point JM say, so how you feel today. Wheather he is serious or not?

And people around here are so naive that they figure Loaiza complained about being sick to anyone who'd listen but that not one person, NOT ONE PERSON, that he complained to would go up to JM and say, "ELo said he's deathly ill. Go talk to him about starting tonight."

 

Right.

So he wouldn't talk to JM for what reason? Why is it Graffanino's responsibility to tell JM "hey don't start Esteban" when in fact, Esteban might be sick, but still ok to pitch.

Geez.. I'm with you jinx.. errr.. Koch

 

That's pretty cool if Loaiza has a little babysitter like that. Wonder if someone else wipes but butt for him, too...

Why don't you ask someone in the White Sox Organization since you claim to know so many "insiders."

[Guest JimH]

I wouldn't blame Manuel on this one.

 

I'm quite certain if Ed Farmer knew about it in the pre-game, Cooper knew and hence so did Manuel. If Herm Schneider knew, Manuel knew.

 

The manager asks the player "Can you play ?", and Loaiza obviously said he could.

 

It didn't work out, but if I'm the manager I want a 19 game winner out there for the first game of a huge series, even if he is under the weather.

 

If the guys says he can go, you give him the ball.

 

Anyway, when he left, it was 3-0 ... certainly not insurmountable.

 

I blame Thomas leaving 4 guys on base, Konerko 0-4 with three left on base, and Maggs with 3 left on base. The first inning was the tone setter ... you've got your two dominant hitters coming up with two guys on base ... 3 pitches later and Radke is out of the inning.

 

I don't blame Manuel for last nite ... I do blame several of our hitters who can't seem to understand they need to sit on Radke's changeup or attempt to take his rinky dink 88 mph fastball the other way.

[Patrick_Bateman]

1. Jerry Manuel

2. Jerry Manuel; and

3. Jerry Manuel

 

I'm sure some here will defend this bozo's decision to start a sick ELo. I posted in another thread that it's now being reported that ELo vomited in the clubhouse before the game and told Farmer he'd be lucky if he didn't throw up on the mound in a pregame interview. Yet our "genius" manager starts ELo when he's sick and an overmatched Cotts just because we already won the series in NY. I'm sick and tired of the constant f***-ups by this idiot.

Why didn't Loaiza TELL Jerry he was that sick..? Rather than crying to everyone else..?

 

Geez... I'm not a fan of JM's by any means, but it's pretty sick how he get's blamed for everything and the f***ing ADULTS on the field get a pass. When do they get to start taking some responsibility..?

Remember when Rick White did this and he was brought in to pitch anyway, I think it was aginst Baltimore. I really think Jerry is on the take. I am serious he makes no good moves. Shouldn't at some point JM say, so how you feel today. Wheather he is serious or not?

And people around here are so naive that they figure Loaiza complained about being sick to anyone who'd listen but that not one person, NOT ONE PERSON, that he complained to would go up to JM and say, "ELo said he's deathly ill. Go talk to him about starting tonight."

 

Right.

So he wouldn't talk to JM for what reason? Why is it Graffanino's responsibility to tell JM "hey don't start Esteban" when in fact, Esteban might be sick, but still ok to pitch.

Geez.. I'm with you jinx.. errr.. Koch

 

That's pretty cool if Loaiza has a little babysitter like that. Wonder if someone else wipes but butt for him, too...

Why don't you ask someone in the White Sox Organization since you claim to know so many "insiders."

Good one. Glad I'm not the only one around here who thinks that.

[Dick Allen]

JM knew he was sick. Loaisa even told Farmio he'd probably puke on the mound, so you know he told Cooper or JM something similar.Maybe EL told them he would be ok. But its JM's job to determine that he won't be ok, like after the first inning, or even after the second inning. This is no time to screw around. It was obvious that there was something wrong, looking at him, he appeared to be hyperventilating and sweating profusely. The fact that JM takes 2 extra innings to conclude their was something very wrong is inexcusable. The point is probably moot because the Sox could only muster 2 runs, and it would not be realistic to believe the bullpen could shut them out for 8 innings, but JM needs to wake up. He's a very nice and classy man, but he should not be managing the White Sox.

[IlliniBob72]

C'mon guys, don't you think this is such a no-brainer that it can't possibly be as you're making it? JM may be a s*** manager, but are we really to believe that Loaiza walks up to Manuel, wipes the vomitus off his chin, and tells Manuel that he's too sick to pitch. Manuel then says, "That's great, Steve, but we need you. Now wipe that puke off your shirt and take the bump."

 

We've also seen great performances from guys who were sick. Michael Jordan, Roger Clemens...s***, I saw Donovan McNabb step away from center, puke, and get back to take the snap. Not saying that JM should have expected that from Loaiza, but is there a slight chance that Loaiza expected that??? Hell, Scottie Pippen took hell for sitting out with a migraine headache. Perhaps Loaiza just wanted to gut it out. Until I hear from a reliable source that Loaiza told JM he couldn't go, I'm going to assume he wanted the ball.

[Steff]

Why don't you ask someone in the White Sox Organization since you claim to know so many "insiders."

Well.. I already know that he didn't puke in the locker room before the game.

[CubKilla]

My point is thus.....

 

1. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza's condition.

2. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza would say, as a competitor, that he'd be ready to go and work through it.

3. I know JM WOULDN'T HAVE THE CAJONES to tap ELo on the shoulder, tell him he can't pitch in his condition with the series implications, give the ball to JG, and tell ELo to rest up and get ready for the next game.

 

See..... what is lost on most here..... is that JM gets paid to MAKE MANAGERIAL DECISIONS! At any time, he can bump or up a SP's start. That's what he is PAID TO DO!

 

If JM doesn't stand up for himself, what makes you think he'd stand up for ELo?

 

The points you made JimH were good though. While JM is never FULLY to blame, he is not WITHOUT blame in this one.

[Dick Allen]

C'mon guys, don't you think this is such a no-brainer that it can't possibly be as you're making it? JM may be a s*** manager, but are we really to believe that Loaiza walks up to Manuel, wipes the vomitus off his chin, and tells Manuel that he's too sick to pitch. Manuel then says, "That's great, Steve, but we need you. Now wipe that puke off your shirt and take the bump."

 

We've also seen great performances from guys who were sick. Michael Jordan, Roger Clemens...s***, I saw Donovan McNabb step away from center, puke, and get back to take the snap. Not saying that JM should have expected that from Loaiza, but is there a slight chance that Loaiza expected that??? Hell, Scottie Pippen took hell for sitting out with a migraine headache. Perhaps Loaiza just wanted to gut it out. Until I hear from a reliable source that Loaiza told JM he couldn't go, I'm going to assume he wanted the ball.

After he labored through the first inning, luckily getting by with giving up 1 run it was obvious something was wrong. We have seen great performances by players who have been sick, but that is the exception not the rule. It was obvious he wasn't himself, he should have been pulled.

[Guest JimH]

Dick, I agree with you that the White Sox should have a different manager. If they don't pull this thing out, I'm convinced we'll get our wish.

 

I tend to agree he may have stuck with him a little too long (76 pitches) but the score was only 3-0 and they obviously thought he could work his way out of the jam.

 

Main thing is, as you said, the offense didn't come through last nite.

 

As for Steff's insight, I hope she keeps posting it. I think it's interesting to hear some insider perspective. We can all filter out what we believe and don't believe anyway.