Loaiza Sick on Tuesday!

[Guest JimH]

Info coming from Dave Wills and Bruce Levine is pretty reliable to me.

 

I think Wills is probably a little constrained about what he can and can't say on the air, since it's the flagship station and all vs. a talk show. I've met Levine several times and he is a very candid and honest guy, in my opinion. He's also acknowledged as a hard worker who really digs for stories.

 

Steff, not to put you on the spot, but do you work with them somehow, or??

[Steff]

I'm going to add here that Bruce was IN the locker room, and talked directly to Loaiza.. and he did NOT report that he puked. That's a pretty solid souce, IMO.

[IlliniBob72]

1. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza's condition.

2. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza would say, as a competitor, that he'd be ready to go and work through it.

3. I know JM WOULDN'T HAVE THE CAJONES to tap ELo on the shoulder, tell him he can't pitch in his condition with the series implications, give the ball to JG, and tell ELo to rest up and get ready for the next game.

 

I agree with all but point 3. IMO, Garland was not the option last night. Starting pitchers have a routine on their scheduled start. Telling Garland 1 to 2 hours prior to the game and then sending him out to toe the rubber could have been devastating. Maybe I'm wrong, but knowing how quirky some starting pitcher are about their game day routines, Jon wouldn't have been in the right mindset.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

Jon's a professional. He should come to the ballpark everyday with the mindset that he is starting. That goes for EL, BC, MB, and whoever our number 5 is from week-to-week.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, not with starting pitchers.

Everyday players, yes.

Starting pitchers, no.

I'm not a starting pitcher but I have a routine I go through before work everyday. I'm sure starting pitchers do too..... whether they are starting or not. Otherwise, what's the sense of having them in uniform, in the dugout, every game?

They're not in the dugout every game. Many times they'll send them to the next city the day before the team, for the sole purpose of getting ready. Sounds like it's a process that's not easily altered.

[Steff]

Steff, not to put you on the spot, but do you work with them somehow, or??

Nope. Just lucky enough to have been introduced to them and became friends.

[Dick Allen]

Whether he puked or not is irrelevant. He was sick. I was watching on TV and told my wife he seemed out of breath and was sweating up a storm in the first inning. I had no idea he was sick until DJ said so after he was pulled. JM should have had the trainer out looking at him.

[Guest JimH]

Nope. Just lucky enough to have been introduced to them and became friends.

Very cool. I've never met Wills but Bruce is a very nice guy and everyone seems to respect him.

[Dick Allen]

1. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza's condition.

2. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza would say, as a competitor, that he'd be ready to go and work through it.

3. I know JM WOULDN'T HAVE THE CAJONES to tap ELo on the shoulder, tell him he can't pitch in his condition with the series implications, give the ball to JG, and tell ELo to rest up and get ready for the next game.

 

I agree with all but point 3. IMO, Garland was not the option last night. Starting pitchers have a routine on their scheduled start. Telling Garland 1 to 2 hours prior to the game and then sending him out to toe the rubber could have been devastating. Maybe I'm wrong, but knowing how quirky some starting pitcher are about their game day routines, Jon wouldn't have been in the right mindset.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

Jon's a professional. He should come to the ballpark everyday with the mindset that he is starting. That goes for EL, BC, MB, and whoever our number 5 is from week-to-week.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, not with starting pitchers.

Everyday players, yes.

Starting pitchers, no.

I'm not a starting pitcher but I have a routine I go through before work everyday. I'm sure starting pitchers do too..... whether they are starting or not. Otherwise, what's the sense of having them in uniform, in the dugout, every game?

They're not in the dugout every game. Many times they'll send them to the next city the day before the team, for the sole purpose of getting ready. Sounds like it's a process that's not easily altered.

They send a pitcher ahead when they play a night game and won't be getting into the next city until real late, so the pitcher gets a full nights sleep, and gets to bed at or near his usual time. I'm sure no pitcher was sent ahead from Boston, in fact I could tell you they were not because I saw both EL and JG checking out of the hotel Sunday. Garland could have pitched, it wouldn't have screwed him up. They probably still would have lost.

[Steff]

Whether he puked or not is irrelevant. He was sick. I was watching on TV and told my wife he seemed out of breath and was sweating up a storm in the first inning. I had no idea he was sick until DJ said so after he was pulled. JM should have had the trainer out looking at him.

You're right. It's not. But when I am pretty much called a liar, I'll defend myself.

 

I was unable to watch the game, but from what I was told he looked horrible. If he felt half as bad as he looked (which again, I did not see) he should have said he could not play.

 

Take "some" responsibility. This is not ALL Jerry's fault.

[chosk8]

1. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza's condition.

2. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza would say, as a competitor, that he'd be ready to go and work through it.

3. I know JM WOULDN'T HAVE THE CAJONES to tap ELo on the shoulder, tell him he can't pitch in his condition with the series implications, give the ball to JG, and tell ELo to rest up and get ready for the next game.

 

I agree with all but point 3. IMO, Garland was not the option last night. Starting pitchers have a routine on their scheduled start. Telling Garland 1 to 2 hours prior to the game and then sending him out to toe the rubber could have been devastating. Maybe I'm wrong, but knowing how quirky some starting pitcher are about their game day routines, Jon wouldn't have been in the right mindset.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

Jon's a professional. He should come to the ballpark everyday with the mindset that he is starting. That goes for EL, BC, MB, and whoever our number 5 is from week-to-week.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, not with starting pitchers.

Everyday players, yes.

Starting pitchers, no.

I'm not a starting pitcher but I have a routine I go through before work everyday. I'm sure starting pitchers do too..... whether they are starting or not. Otherwise, what's the sense of having them in uniform, in the dugout, every game?

They're not in the dugout every game. Many times they'll send them to the next city the day before the team, for the sole purpose of getting ready. Sounds like it's a process that's not easily altered.

They send a pitcher ahead when they play a night game and won't be getting into the next city until real late, so the pitcher gets a full nights sleep, and gets to bed at or near his usual time. I'm sure no pitcher was sent ahead from Boston, in fact I could tell you they were not because I saw both EL and JG checking out of the hotel. Garland could have pitched, it wouldn't have screwed him up. They probably still would have lost.

Garland could have gone last night, yes, but no one knows how effective he would have been. All I'm saying is that these guys have game day routines that they go through. Maybe Jon eats chicken for lunch on the day he pitches. Maybe he didn't eat chicken yesterday and is told he is starting an hour before the game. It's a mental issue. Of course he 'could' have started. Any one of our starters 'could' have started. I've known guys who couldn't tie their shoes the right way if they didn't have all their ducks in a row on game day.

[Dick Allen]

You're right. It's not. But when I am pretty much called a liar, I'll defend myself.

 

I was unable to watch the game, but from what I was told he looked horrible. If he felt half as bad as he looked (which again, I did not see) he should have said he could not play.

 

Take "some" responsibility. This is not ALL Jerry's fault.

I wasn't calling you out, by all means, defend yourself. Obviously EL thought he could still go, and it was obvious very quickly he couldn't. JM has to recognize that. His performance in the 1st inning reminded me of Neal Cotts. 3 or 4 walks. At that point he had thrown 35 or so pitches, JM needed to get him out of there, especially knowing beforehand he was under the weather.

[Queen Prawn]

Hell, Scottie Pippen took hell for sitting out with a migraine headache.

Anyone giving him gruff about not playing with a migraine has obviously never experienced one. I suffer from them on a regular basis (actually just getting over one). I do go to work with them, but it's one thing to work in a lab/in front of a computer and another to be running up and down a court.

 

In regards to Loiaza, Manuel should have been able to see he couldn't go regardless of what Loaiza said. I know when I have the flu, I still insist on going to work whether I should or not (and contrary to the popular belief that people that do this think the world will stop without them, I go to work when feeling under the weather because I am more afraid of falling behind in my work and/or getting in hot water or a missed day - yes I can be paranoid at times ). The fact of the matter is there is nothing that can be done to go back and try something else, unless you are John Litor (or whatever his name was in the thread on the OT page).

[Dick Allen]

1. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza's condition.

2. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza would say, as a competitor, that he'd be ready to go and work through it.

3. I know JM WOULDN'T HAVE THE CAJONES to tap ELo on the shoulder, tell him he can't pitch in his condition with the series implications, give the ball to JG, and tell ELo to rest up and get ready for the next game.

 

I agree with all but point 3. IMO, Garland was not the option last night. Starting pitchers have a routine on their scheduled start. Telling Garland 1 to 2 hours prior to the game and then sending him out to toe the rubber could have been devastating. Maybe I'm wrong, but knowing how quirky some starting pitcher are about their game day routines, Jon wouldn't have been in the right mindset.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

Jon's a professional. He should come to the ballpark everyday with the mindset that he is starting. That goes for EL, BC, MB, and whoever our number 5 is from week-to-week.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, not with starting pitchers.

Everyday players, yes.

Starting pitchers, no.

I'm not a starting pitcher but I have a routine I go through before work everyday. I'm sure starting pitchers do too..... whether they are starting or not. Otherwise, what's the sense of having them in uniform, in the dugout, every game?

They're not in the dugout every game. Many times they'll send them to the next city the day before the team, for the sole purpose of getting ready. Sounds like it's a process that's not easily altered.

They send a pitcher ahead when they play a night game and won't be getting into the next city until real late, so the pitcher gets a full nights sleep, and gets to bed at or near his usual time. I'm sure no pitcher was sent ahead from Boston, in fact I could tell you they were not because I saw both EL and JG checking out of the hotel. Garland could have pitched, it wouldn't have screwed him up. They probably still would have lost.

Garland could have gone last night, yes, but no one knows how effective he would have been. All I'm saying is that these guys have game day routines that they go through. Maybe Jon eats chicken for lunch on the day he pitches. Maybe he didn't eat chicken yesterday and is told he is starting an hour before the game. It's a mental issue. Of course he 'could' have started. Any one of our starters 'could' have started. I've known guys who couldn't tie their shoes the right way if they didn't have all their ducks in a row on game day.

Maybe he would have done better without this "routine" he alledgedly goes through. Like I said before, the offense scored only 2 runs, so to win anyone would have only been able to allow 1, so in terms of winning or losing, last night's decision by JM really didn't matter, its just that it could someday.

[chosk8]

1. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza's condition.

2. I know JM HAD TO KNOW Loaiza would say, as a competitor, that he'd be ready to go and work through it.

3. I know JM WOULDN'T HAVE THE CAJONES to tap ELo on the shoulder, tell him he can't pitch in his condition with the series implications, give the ball to JG, and tell ELo to rest up and get ready for the next game.

 

I agree with all but point 3. IMO, Garland was not the option last night. Starting pitchers have a routine on their scheduled start. Telling Garland 1 to 2 hours prior to the game and then sending him out to toe the rubber could have been devastating. Maybe I'm wrong, but knowing how quirky some starting pitcher are about their game day routines, Jon wouldn't have been in the right mindset.

 

Just my opinion, of course.

Jon's a professional. He should come to the ballpark everyday with the mindset that he is starting. That goes for EL, BC, MB, and whoever our number 5 is from week-to-week.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, not with starting pitchers.

Everyday players, yes.

Starting pitchers, no.

I'm not a starting pitcher but I have a routine I go through before work everyday. I'm sure starting pitchers do too..... whether they are starting or not. Otherwise, what's the sense of having them in uniform, in the dugout, every game?

They're not in the dugout every game. Many times they'll send them to the next city the day before the team, for the sole purpose of getting ready. Sounds like it's a process that's not easily altered.

They send a pitcher ahead when they play a night game and won't be getting into the next city until real late, so the pitcher gets a full nights sleep, and gets to bed at or near his usual time. I'm sure no pitcher was sent ahead from Boston, in fact I could tell you they were not because I saw both EL and JG checking out of the hotel. Garland could have pitched, it wouldn't have screwed him up. They probably still would have lost.

Garland could have gone last night, yes, but no one knows how effective he would have been. All I'm saying is that these guys have game day routines that they go through. Maybe Jon eats chicken for lunch on the day he pitches. Maybe he didn't eat chicken yesterday and is told he is starting an hour before the game. It's a mental issue. Of course he 'could' have started. Any one of our starters 'could' have started. I've known guys who couldn't tie their shoes the right way if they didn't have all their ducks in a row on game day.

Maybe he would have done better without this "routine" he alledgedly goes through. Like I said before, the offense scored only 2 runs, so to win anyone would have only been able to allow 1, so in terms of winning or losing, last night's decision by JM really didn't matter, its just that it could someday.

I don't know what Jon does on game days or if he even has a routine, but some of these starting pitchers are real goofballs when it comes to that stuff. I never alledged anything, just pointed out the possibility that a game day routine is a real possibility in regards to pitchers.

[The Critic]

Of course, none of this Garland/Loaiza flipflop "controversy" would matter if the Sox had a FIFTH guy they could feel confident in giving the ball to...

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

Kenny Williams' biggest mistakes this year (outside of Koch) were not getting a fifth starter (Kenny Rogers would have been just fine) and not firing Manuel in say, June.

 

By the way, whatever Loiaza had, it's contagious. I was puking just watching him.

[CubKilla]

Kenny Williams' biggest mistakes this year (outside of Koch) were not getting a fifth starter (Kenny Rogers would have been just fine) and not firing Manuel in say, June.

 

By the way, whatever Loiaza had, it's contagious. I was puking just watching him.

To the first sentence.....

 

To the second sentence.....

[elrockinMT]

It didn't appear they had a hitters meeting on how to attack Radke, that's for sure.

And aparently didn't the last game he beat us either. They also must not have good memories.

[Rex Hudler]

I am not one to say that Loaiza should have been pulled in favor of another starter last night, because I was not in the locker room or the training room or the manager's office. I will not assume that I know what was said and to whom. I do believe that Loaiza said he wanted to pitch and could get the job done. In that case, if you are the manager, you give him the ball.

 

There are lots of possible scenarios such as JM didn't know the severity until 30 minutes before game time or that he never knew because Loaiza was hiding it (which seems very logical to me). Perhaps he told JM to give him the ball and he would get him 4 or 5 innings? We weren't there, so we don't know. I do know that the manager certainly isn't following his players in the bathroom an hour before game time to make sure they aren't puking. LOL

 

All I'm saying is that these guys have game day routines that they go through. Maybe Jon eats chicken for lunch on the day he pitches. Maybe he didn't eat chicken yesterday and is told he is starting an hour before the game. It's a mental issue. Of course he 'could' have started. Any one of our starters 'could' have started. I've known guys who couldn't tie their shoes the right way if they didn't have all their ducks in a row on game day.

 

But as far as routines go, all I have to say is that I understand them and respect them, but it is win-or-go-home time. If Garland was called into action, then its time to suck it up and do the job. "Routines" don't matter at this time of year. You do what is best for the team and you adapt accordingly.

[Molto]

I don't blame Manuel for starting Loaiza because I don't know what was said in the clubhouse. I wouldn't be surprised if Loaiza told JM that he could go, and if so, you as a manager can't question it. when your ACE says he's okay to go, you let him go.

 

one problem I do have with Manuel is why he left him in so long.

 

personally, after seeing him have no control and being so sick, I would've pulled him, brought in Wright or Schoeneweis (take my chances with them) and then send Loaiza on a plane back to Chicago the next day, telling him to get better and ready for Saturday's start.

 

either way, the first inning is what screwed the game up. before Loaiza even stepped on the mound we had already blown a first and second, no out situation. Radke didn't look too sharp in the first and was hittable, but Thomas and Ordonez didn't come through, allowing Radke to get through the inning, and in time, get in a rythm that beat the Sox from there on out. our offense was the reason we lost, we know that because we saw it first-hand. JMs decision to start ELO was something decided on behind closed doors.

[Harry Chappas]

I don't blame Manuel for starting Loaiza because I don't know what was said in the clubhouse.  I wouldn't be surprised if Loaiza told JM that he could go, and if so, you as a manager can't question it.  when your ACE says he's okay to go, you let him go.

 

one problem I do have with Manuel is why he left him in so long.

 

personally, after seeing him have no control and being so sick, I would've pulled him, brought in Wright or Schoeneweis (take my chances with them) and then send Loaiza on a plane back to Chicago the next day, telling him to get better and ready for Saturday's start.

 

either way, the first inning is what screwed the game up.  before Loaiza even stepped on the mound we had already blown a first and second, no out situation.  Radke didn't look too sharp in the first and was hittable, but Thomas and Ordonez didn't come through, allowing Radke to get through the inning, and in time, get in a rythm that beat the Sox from there on out.  our offense was the reason we lost, we know that because we saw it first-hand. JMs decision to start ELO was something decided on behind closed doors.

The funny thing is, you would think so wouldn't you. I do not get the feeling there are sensible moves made here. Remember this was the guy throwing Julio Ramirez out there before Chris Singleton, with Singleton coming off of a .300 season. How about giving up on Foulke, now that was a great judge of talent there. The topper being not pitching Koch or Paniagua against Cleveland up by four but doing so against the Twins and using Gordon in both games.

 

Why isn't the more experienced well rested catcher playing after the day off? Right now we need the best guy out there and that is Alomar.

[Molto]

Olivo caught because Loaiza pitched, that is how they've done things this year. Alomar catches Buehrle and the fifth guy, Olivo catches Colon, Garland and Loaiza.

[Harry Chappas]

Olivo caught because Loaiza pitched, that is how they've done things this year.  Alomar catches Buehrle and the fifth guy, Olivo catches Colon, Garland and Loaiza.

That's fine in the middle of the season but right now I want the guy that gives me the best chance to win. Olive struck out in 8 of 9 plate appearences going into last evening.

[Dick Allen]

That's fine in the middle of the season but right now I want the guy that gives me the best chance to win.  Olive struck out in 8 of 9 plate appearences going into last evening.

I'm pretty sure Sandy's knees are bothering him. I was at the hotel in Boston, and he was really hobbling around.

[Molto]

it isn't about health or offense, it is about doing what has gotten you here, which has been Esteban Loaiza, who has been caught by Miguel Olivo.

 

and even if you did start Alomar, would that of really helped out our offense?

 

one thing that should've been done by Manuel was a bunt by Olivo when Crede ledoff with that single.

 

With Olivo struggling offensively, he has to lay down that bunt more. IF he did that -- and I don't say this after the fact -- Crede is on second and either scores on Alomar's single or Lee's groundout.

 

another thing Manuel should do is switch Crede and Valentin in the order. Valentin has been useless for quite some time, while Crede has been one of our better hitters. having a vet between the two young guys in the lineup might do some good.

[Dick Allen]

it isn't about health or offense, it is about doing what has gotten you here, which has been Esteban Loaiza, who has been caught by Miguel Olivo.

 

and even if you did start Alomar, would that of really helped out our offense?

 

one thing that should've been done by Manuel was a bunt by Olivo when Crede ledoff with that single. 

 

With Olivo struggling offensively, he has to lay down that bunt more.  IF he did that -- and I don't say this after the fact -- Crede is on second and either scores on Alomar's single or Lee's groundout.

 

another thing Manuel should do is switch Crede and Valentin in the order.  Valentin has been useless for quite some time, while Crede has been one of our better hitters.  having a vet between the two young guys in the lineup might do some good.

JM the windsock said about a month ago Sandy would be doing the bulk of the catching. The fact that Olivo is doing most of the catching, while hitting worse than many National League pitching staffs the last month would indicate that Sandy's health may indeed be the reason.