NCAA basketball thread 2016-17

[RockRaines]

What I take from this, Illinois must have raised their bid?

Upvote

[Boogua]

What I take from this, Illinois must have raised their bid?

One can only hope.

[LittleHurt05]

This Jacksonville Jaguars bag full of money, where did this come from?

[Bananarchy]

This Jacksonville Jaguars bag full of money, where did this come from?

Shahid khan? It's unbelievable the wealthiest Pakistani in the world built his empire in Urbana, IL.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Deadpool

[LittleHurt05]

Shahid khan? It's unbelievable the wealthiest Pakistani in the world built his empire in Urbana, IL.

 

Yeah, the whole story is amazing. It's a true American Dream tale, by a Pakistani Muslim. (Don't tell the Donald)

 

Given his wealth and love for sports, he own Fulham too, he could definitely be that major donor to help the sports program. I'm sure he played a part in finding the cash for Lovie.

[bigruss]

You're used to being wrong. A top 10 class is enough excitement to sustain a program for one year. The effects of firing Groce after this season would be catastrophic.

 

 

Don't encourage him.

No, that's not enough. If he got Wilkes too then yea sure but this class alone isn't a coach-saver.

 

You can't be at Illinois and miss 4 tournaments in a row, unacceptable. 3 was already too many but he gets a half-pass with all the injuries last year.

[Boogua]

No, that's not enough. If he got Wilkes too then yea sure but this class alone isn't a coach-saver.

 

You can't be at Illinois and miss 4 tournaments in a row, unacceptable. 3 was already too many but he gets a half-pass with all the injuries last year.

I'd have to think it would be easier to hire a bigger name coach this time around with the cupboard not being nearly as bare as when Weber left. I agree that Groce should be gone without a tourney appearance.

[bigruss]

Derrick Favors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tilmon

 

Tilmon is great don't get me wrong. But he's not like a Ben Simmons esque program changer. Closer to 25th in the country than 1. The 2018 team probably isn't even better than the team we're running out now. No way we keep Groce if he misses the tournament.

 

This class as it stands will probably be about 12-15th best in the country. That's not even better than what Weber was getting us in his last years. Groce has lowered expectations for this program that it almost seems to be helping him.

I don't necessarily disagree with your points but quite frankly I'm shocked that you didn't say you wished JT went elsewhere so that Groce's fate was sealed. Your hate for Groce knows no bounds

 

Groce classes:

2017: class 8th (incomplete)

2016: class 101

2015: class 16

2014: class 55

2013: class 14

 

Those Weber classes

2012: Nothing

2011: Abrams (65), Egwu (76), Shaw (64), Henry (63), Langford (159), Ibby (NR) - class 10

2010: Richmond (29), Leonard (30), Head (80) - class 11

2009: Richardson (97), Paul (101), Griffey (103), Bertrand (122) - class 38

2008: class 152

2007: class 33

2006: class 42

2005: class 56

2004: class 49

 

So in Weber's last 4 years he was barely doing as well as Groce is now. Yes, 2 top 30 players was impressive in 2010. That said, we had 8 early departures from the 2010 and 2011 classes (with only 1 going to the NBA) and nobody in the 2012 class, just awfulness there.

 

It's crazy how badly Weber burned this program down. Groce has a slight pulse again, we shall see if he can continue to build upward.

[Boogua]

Hey now, that 2012 empty class was on Groce. Weber had the thrice transferred, isn't even good at SDSU, Michael Orris all wrapped up.

[RockRaines]

Matta is on the hot seat, I assume Groce's is melting from the heat.

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't necessarily disagree with your points but quite frankly I'm shocked that you didn't say you wished JT went elsewhere so that Groce's fate was sealed. Your hate for Groce knows no bounds

 

Groce classes:

2017: class 8th (incomplete)

2016: class 101

2015: class 16

2014: class 55

2013: class 14

 

Those Weber classes

2012: Nothing

2011: Abrams (65), Egwu (76), Shaw (64), Henry (63), Langford (159), Ibby (NR) - class 10

2010: Richmond (29), Leonard (30), Head (80) - class 11

2009: Richardson (97), Paul (101), Griffey (103), Bertrand (122) - class 38

2008: class 152

2007: class 33

2006: class 42

2005: class 56

2004: class 49

 

So in Weber's last 4 years he was barely doing as well as Groce is now. Yes, 2 top 30 players was impressive in 2010. That said, we had 8 early departures from the 2010 and 2011 classes (with only 1 going to the NBA) and nobody in the 2012 class, just awfulness there.

 

It's crazy how badly Weber burned this program down. Groce has a slight pulse again, we shall see if he can continue to build upward.

 

Ok, Ron Guenther. Haven't we learned that keeping coaches around for an extra season or two is a terrible way to go? Turner, Zook, Weber. All program killers. You don't wait to fire the coach until you hit rock bottom. You try to salvage a decent roster with a new coach and hope they can swing it around without having to do a full rebuild. And that's what sucks about Groce - he had decent players and then recruited decent players right away. And yet they've still sucked.

 

Groce should be fired after this season if they don't make the tournament. Plain and simple. He's done poorly his last 3 seasons. And it's not even just missing the tournament, it's getting worse year by year. He's had some tough recruiting losses, he's had a bevy of awful injuries and he's had some s***ty off the court drama to deal with. All sucks for him, but making the tournament should not be hard for this program. Missing a tournament bid is bad enough, missing it three seasons in a row is unacceptable.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I don't necessarily disagree with your points but quite frankly I'm shocked that you didn't say you wished JT went elsewhere so that Groce's fate was sealed. Your hate for Groce knows no bounds

 

Groce classes:

2017: class 8th (incomplete)

2016: class 101

2015: class 16

2014: class 55

2013: class 14

 

Those Weber classes

2012: Nothing

2011: Abrams (65), Egwu (76), Shaw (64), Henry (63), Langford (159), Ibby (NR) - class 10

2010: Richmond (29), Leonard (30), Head (80) - class 11

2009: Richardson (97), Paul (101), Griffey (103), Bertrand (122) - class 38

2008: class 152

2007: class 33

2006: class 42

2005: class 56

2004: class 49

 

So in Weber's last 4 years he was barely doing as well as Groce is now. Yes, 2 top 30 players was impressive in 2010. That said, we had 8 early departures from the 2010 and 2011 classes (with only 1 going to the NBA) and nobody in the 2012 class, just awfulness there.

 

It's crazy how badly Weber burned this program down. Groce has a slight pulse again, we shall see if he can continue to build upward.

I think you got your info from 247 who has incomplete data because their site didn't exist back then. Brandon Paul and DJ Richardson for example, were top 50 recruits. #35 and #49 RSCI respectively. That was 3 top 15 years classes in Weber's in his final 4 years.

 

Anyways, my point is not what Weber left (irrelevant talking about Groce's 6th year), it's that Groce isn't even recruiting at a level above him, which we hired him to do and that this type of talent isn't somehow unique for use, even compared to the Weber years.

[bigruss]

Jenks, did I not just say a few posts up that if they don't make the tournament that he should be fired?

[bigruss]

I think you got your info from 247 who has incomplete data because their site didn't exist back then. Brandon Paul and DJ Richardson for example, were top 50 recruits. #35 and #49 RSCI respectively. That was 3 top 15 years classes in Weber's in his final 4 years.

 

Anyways, my point is not what Weber left (irrelevant talking about Groce's 6th year), it's that Groce isn't even recruiting at a level above him, which we hired him to do and that this type of talent isn't somehow unique for use, even compared to the Weber years.

Yea I did, good call. I find their site easier to navigate so my bad on that.

 

But dude, you brought up Weber's recruiting and a huge part of that is that 8 of 10 of his last players recruited didn't make it to year 3 at Illinois. Throw rankings out of the window at that point, that's terrible recruiting/coaching/development, unless you're Kentucky and it meant they were all NBA draft picks.

 

I 100% agree that Groce has been a major disappointment, and I'll continue to say that if Groce doesn't make the tournament this year then he's gone. In fact, I'll say if he doesn't make the tournament this year and next he should be gone. There are no more excuses at this point.

[whitesoxfan99]

Groce has to be fired if he misses the tournament again and he should be fired even if they make the tournament but all they do is sneak in. You don't keep coaches once you know they aren't the right guy.

[whitesoxfan99]

I think you got your info from 247 who has incomplete data because their site didn't exist back then. Brandon Paul and DJ Richardson for example, were top 50 recruits. #35 and #49 RSCI respectively. That was 3 top 15 years classes in Weber's in his final 4 years.

 

Anyways, my point is not what Weber left (irrelevant talking about Groce's 6th year), it's that Groce isn't even recruiting at a level above him, which we hired him to do and that this type of talent isn't somehow unique for use, even compared to the Weber years.

 

Yep, it looked like early on Groce was going to recruit at a much higher level than Weber and that was what excited me about him but that just hasn't happened. Basically everything looked great with Groce up until the Snyder/Cliff fiasco. Since then recruiting has been fine but not good enough given that Groce has shown he isn't going to win big without superior talent.

[Jenksismyhero]

Jenks, did I not just say a few posts up that if they don't make the tournament that he should be fired?

 

You're right, sorry. I was molding your post and another's together.

[illinilaw08]

Ok, Ron Guenther. Haven't we learned that keeping coaches around for an extra season or two is a terrible way to go? Turner, Zook, Weber. All program killers. You don't wait to fire the coach until you hit rock bottom. You try to salvage a decent roster with a new coach and hope they can swing it around without having to do a full rebuild. And that's what sucks about Groce - he had decent players and then recruited decent players right away. And yet they've still sucked.

 

Groce should be fired after this season if they don't make the tournament. Plain and simple. He's done poorly his last 3 seasons. And it's not even just missing the tournament, it's getting worse year by year. He's had some tough recruiting losses, he's had a bevy of awful injuries and he's had some s***ty off the court drama to deal with. All sucks for him, but making the tournament should not be hard for this program. Missing a tournament bid is bad enough, missing it three seasons in a row is unacceptable.

 

Here's the only rationale I can consider for why you keep Groce around until 2018, regardless of results.

 

The '17 class is a large recruiting class for Illinois in terms of numbers - right now it's a 4 man class, and there are still two open scholarships. The '18 class, by contrast, is going to be small. To the extent that you are worried about losing not just Tilmon, but Frazier and Williams as well if Groce is fired (and this is all speculation on my part), then you go into the '17-'18 season with a new coach and 9 scholarship players. Plus hypothetical new coach is behind on the '18 class, and you are talking about a long rebuild. Once the kids are in school and have to deal with a sit out year, they are less likely to transfer. If Williams and Frazier are solid regardless of coach, then the above is probably moot, but you can't end up with an empty '17 recruiting class.

 

I don't know that is a good argument, but it's certainly something to take into account when deciding on Groce's future. Hopefully this is all moot and this team comfortably makes the tournament...

[Jenksismyhero]

Yea I did, good call. I find their site easier to navigate so my bad on that.

 

But dude, you brought up Weber's recruiting and a huge part of that is that 8 of 10 of his last players recruited didn't make it to year 3 at Illinois. Throw rankings out of the window at that point, that's terrible recruiting/coaching/development, unless you're Kentucky and it meant they were all NBA draft picks.

 

I 100% agree that Groce has been a major disappointment, and I'll continue to say that if Groce doesn't make the tournament this year then he's gone. In fact, I'll say if he doesn't make the tournament this year and next he should be gone. There are no more excuses at this point.

 

Yeah, I'm still not sure that next year is going to be any better. Really have to see a jump from Black and JCL I think.

[Jenksismyhero]

Here's the only rationale I can consider for why you keep Groce around until 2018, regardless of results.

 

The '17 class is a large recruiting class for Illinois in terms of numbers - right now it's a 4 man class, and there are still two open scholarships. The '18 class, by contrast, is going to be small. To the extent that you are worried about losing not just Tilmon, but Frazier and Williams as well if Groce is fired (and this is all speculation on my part), then you go into the '17-'18 season with a new coach and 9 scholarship players. Plus hypothetical new coach is behind on the '18 class, and you are talking about a long rebuild. Once the kids are in school and have to deal with a sit out year, they are less likely to transfer. If Williams and Frazier are solid regardless of coach, then the above is probably moot, but you can't end up with an empty '17 recruiting class.

 

I don't know that is a good argument, but it's certainly something to take into account when deciding on Groce's future. Hopefully this is all moot and this team comfortably makes the tournament...

 

Aren't you stuck with the one year sit out after signing the NLI?

[Boogua]

Aren't you stuck with the one year sit out after signing the NLI?

Schools release kids from their NLI if the coach is fired

[illinilaw08]

Yeah, I'm still not sure that next year is going to be any better. Really have to see a jump from Black and JCL I think.

 

Next year will be worse. You lose 5 Seniors, including Hill and both your centers. If Black and JCL make leaps this year (1) this team will comfortably make the tournament; and (2) I'll feel much better about next year, but '18 is going to be a really young and unproven roster.

[bigruss]

Next year will be worse. You lose 5 Seniors, including Hill and both your centers. If Black and JCL make leaps this year (1) this team will comfortably make the tournament; and (2) I'll feel much better about next year, but '18 is going to be a really young and unproven roster.

Yea but if you're evaluating Groce you need to consider if he recruited to make the tournament once every 3/4 years or if he's building a consistent winner. Making the tournament, while tough in 2018, will be essential to proving that he can coach and build a winner.

[illinilaw08]

Yea but if you're evaluating Groce you need to consider if he recruited to make the tournament once every 3/4 years or if he's building a consistent winner. Making the tournament, while tough in 2018, will be essential to proving that he can coach and build a winner.

 

No disagreement from my end there.

[Bananarchy]

Schools release kids from their NLI if the coach is fired

To not do so would be a disaster for Illinois. We would never land a top recruit again if we fired Groce, leading Tilmon to demand out of his NLI, and then forbid JT from leaving.

 

Frankly, Whitman has given every indication Groce is staying and Illinois cannot afford to pay another coach not to coach.

 

This thread is so stereotypical Illinois fan. The program has won very little, but the fans expect them to land blue blood class recruits. Of course, when they finally do, they're unsatisfied because they don't realize that they're Illinois fans and Illinois is just not a top tier program anymore.