NCAA basketball thread 2016-17

[Soxfest]

Groce has to make NCAA or bust he was told this in the spring by Whitman.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Soxfest

[Boogua]

To not do so would be a disaster for Illinois. We would never land a top recruit again if we fired Groce, leading Tilmon to demand out of his NLI, and then forbid JT from leaving.

 

Frankly, Whitman has given every indication Groce is staying and Illinois cannot afford to pay another coach not to coach.

 

This thread is so stereotypical Illinois fan. The program has won very little, but the fans expect them to land blue blood class recruits. Of course, when they finally do, they're unsatisfied because they don't realize that they're Illinois fans and Illinois is just not a top tier program anymore.

Yeah, clearly everyone would be released from their NLI.

 

Also, recruiting only goes so far. LSU got Ben Simmons and Antonio Blakeney last year and didn't even make the tournament. Should lsu fans like Johnny Jones? Every single Illini coach since I've started following has been able to get a 5 star/mcaa, I would expect the next to be able to do the same

[illinilaw08]

Yeah, clearly everyone would be released from their NLI.

 

Also, recruiting only goes so far. LSU got Ben Simmons and Antonio Blakeney last year and didn't even make the tournament. Should lsu fans like Johnny Jones? Every single Illini coach since I've started following has been able to get a 5 star/mcaa, I would expect the next to be able to do the same

 

That's historically true, but also requires some context. The Henson years are evident enough. Henson was able to pull top talent out of Chicago, but landed the program on probation (thanks Bruce Pearl...). Kruger came in and was black balled in Chicago, but was fortunate enough to have a massive amount of downstate talent with Griffin/McClain, Frank Williams, and Cook in three straight years. Self was a really good recruiter, but the only McDonald's All-American he signed was Dee (also requires context - different era with much of the McD AA game comprised of straight to the NBA guys).

 

The point here is that for the last 20 years, the most reliable bed for Illinois recruiting has been Central Illinois. Self was able to successfully recruit in Texas (Deron and Warren Carter being the two most obvious examples), and Groce has had some success regionally in the Midwest (JCL and Black). But Illinois is never going to lock down Chicago or the Chicago suburbs, which means that, unless the new coach is able to consistently recruit regionally, the Illini will be dependent on the ebb and flow of talent in Central Illinois.

[Jenksismyhero]

To not do so would be a disaster for Illinois. We would never land a top recruit again if we fired Groce, leading Tilmon to demand out of his NLI, and then forbid JT from leaving.

 

Frankly, Whitman has given every indication Groce is staying and Illinois cannot afford to pay another coach not to coach.

 

This thread is so stereotypical Illinois fan. The program has won very little, but the fans expect them to land blue blood class recruits. Of course, when they finally do, they're unsatisfied because they don't realize that they're Illinois fans and Illinois is just not a top tier program anymore.

 

I mean, I don't think it's unrealistic or unreasonable. From the late 80's to the mid 2000's it was a very good, top 25 nationally, top 5 conference, program. For a stretch it was easily top 10-15 (2000-2005) and the best in the big ten. It all culminated in 2005 when they were legitimately one of the best teams ever and then failed to deliver.

 

Since that point it's been nothing but let downs and disappointment. Weber continually whiffed on recruits, failed to adapt to his roster's strengths and left the program in the bottom third of the conference. Groce hasn't done much to change that. What he did bring was the hope of a resurgence in recruiting and getting so close to so many top guys like Snyder and Alexandar really cemented that belief.

 

They're nowhere close to a top tier program right now. I totally accept that. But it doesn't mean Illinois can't recapture that run that happened 10-15 years ago.

Edited November 18, 2016 by JenksIsMyHero

[LittleHurt05]

I mean, I don't think it's unrealistic or unreasonable. From the late 80's to the mid 2000's it was a very good, top 25 nationally, top 5 conference, program. For a stretch it was easily top 10-15 (2000-2005) and the best in the big ten. It all culminated in 2005 when they were legitimately one of the best teams ever and then failed to deliver.

 

Since that point it's been nothing but let downs and disappointment. Weber continually whiffed on recruits, failed to adapt to his roster's strengths and left the program in the bottom third of the conference. Groce hasn't done much to change that. What he did bring was the hope of a resurgence in recruiting and getting so close to so many top guys like Snyder and Alexandar really cemented that belief.

 

They're nowhere close to a top tier program right now. I totally accept that. But it doesn't mean Illinois can't recapture that run that happened 10-15 years ago.

 

From 1982-2007, they made the NCAA tourney 21 out of 25 seasons, and seven sweet 16s or better. Make the tourney nearly every year, and once out of every 4 years have a better team that can do some damage. Given how long they were able to sustain that for, I think those are realistic expectations. Although, as someone else pointed out, the decline of basketball in central Illinois may hurt the program more than you would expect.

[Panerista]

From 1982-2007, they made the NCAA tourney 21 out of 25 seasons, and seven sweet 16s or better. Make the tourney nearly every year, and once out of every 4 years have a better team that can do some damage. Given how long they were able to sustain that for, I think those are realistic expectations. Although, as someone else pointed out, the decline of basketball in central Illinois may hurt the program more than you would expect.

Two final fours, one National Championship loss in that time. Illinois fans act like that comparatively weak resume is enough to compete with Duke, KU, UK, etc.

[illinilaw08]

Two final fours, one National Championship loss in that time. Illinois fans act like that comparatively weak resume is enough to compete with Duke, KU, UK, etc.

 

That's quite the strawman argument there. I'm not sure what Illinois fans you talk, but I don't think anyone sees the Illini's ceiling as anything close to Duke, UK, KU, etc. But it's not unreasonable for Illinois basketball to return to where it was from '82-'07. During that time they also had a couple Elite 8 losses ('84 and '01).

 

Littlehurt is right on with expectations for the program. Make the tournament every year, be in the Final Four conversation every 4 years. There's no reason the program can't get back to that level.

[Panerista]

That's quite the strawman argument there. I'm not sure what Illinois fans you talk, but I don't think anyone sees the Illini's ceiling as anything close to Duke, UK, KU, etc. But it's not unreasonable for Illinois basketball to return to where it was from '82-'07. During that time they also had a couple Elite 8 losses ('84 and '01).

 

Littlehurt is right on with expectations for the program. Make the tournament every year, be in the Final Four conversation every 4 years. There's no reason the program can't get back to that level.

That's fine if that is your expectation. But then you can't be mad when teams who compete for a National Championship every single year out recruit Groce. The fact is, if you really feel like LittleHurt's expectations are fair, you should expect three and four star recruits every year. That NC Runner up had one five star player on it.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Deadpool

[Jenksismyhero]

That's fine if that is your expectation. But then you can't be mad when teams who compete for a National Championship every single year out recruit Groce. The fact is, if you really feel like LittleHurt's expectations are fair, you should expect three and four star recruits every year. That NC Runner up had one five star player on it.

 

Um, no one is. No one expects Groce to pull down Kansas/Kentucky/Duke classes and no one is disappointed when it doesn't happen.

 

That's quite different from being upset with a bad couple of beats in recruiting, like when a guy that verballed months before changes his mind on signing day (leaving the team scrambling for a replacement or a guy that picked up an Illinois hat before putting it back down during his announcement (ha ha f*** you Cliff, karma's a b****, how's the D-League?).

[Panerista]

Um, no one is. No one expects Groce to pull down Kansas/Kentucky/Duke classes and no one is disappointed when it doesn't happen.

 

That's quite different from being upset with a bad couple of beats in recruiting, like when a guy that verballed months before changes his mind on signing day (leaving the team scrambling for a replacement or a guy that picked up an Illinois hat before putting it back down during his announcement (ha ha f*** you Cliff, karma's a b****, how's the D-League?).

Just to clarify, we don't blame the bold on Groce. We can't.

 

Also, lol Cliff. He sucks.

[Brian]

Michigan but actually be good.

[He_Gawn]

This is IU's best team in a long time. If they don't repeat as B1G champs and do something in the tournament, I'll be very disappointed. OG is just a specimen.

[Jenksismyhero]

John f***ing Groce.

[Soxfest]

John f***ing Groce.

He does not make tourney he is gone,

[fathom]

That Tilmon LOI won't mean much. Groce sold his soul for this year and still is a disgrace

[whitesoxfan99]

That Tilmon LOI won't mean much. Groce sold his soul for this year and still is a disgrace

 

Ten years ago I would have been a wreck if Illinois had the drama they had surrounding Tilmon's LOI. Now i didn't even care since until Groce is fired whatever happens with the program is pretty much irrelevant. Thank you Ron Guenther, Mike Thomas, Bruce Weber, and John Groce for all being ridiculously incompetent and destroying Illinois basketball. I'm sadly not even upset by losses like tonight's anymore. Program has been garbage for 11 years now.

 

There is a solid chance we miss the tournament for the 4th consecutive year. We missed the tourney 3 out of Weber's last 5 years so we are probably going to have been in the tourney 3 times in the last 10 years. And if you go back to the season before the last 10 that team was probably one coin flip game from being out of the tourney. It is simply absurd how incompetent Weber was with what he took over and Thomas managed to hire an even worse coach which is pathetic (he somehow managed to replace two incompetent coaches with even more incompetent coaches).

Edited November 22, 2016 by whitesoxfan99

[gatnom]

John f***ing Groce.

 

With 22 turnovers against Winthrop at home, the West Virginia game could get ugly.

 

 

[bigruss]

Ugh I have to just give up on Illini athletics, it's just too painful.

[illinilaw08]

Ugh I have to just give up on Illini athletics, it's just too painful.

 

Here's my eternal optimist take on things. JCL is still shaking off the rust from the hand injury. Black is getting back up to game speed. Those are the two most important, non-Hill, non-Abrams, members of this Illinois team. JCL needs to be the second scorer to complement Hill. Black needs to be the rebounder, and guy that makes jumpers in the midrange game. If both of those guys come along, the ceiling for this team goes up.

 

Yes, losing to Winthrop is bad. No, it's not catastrophic. Margin of error gets a lot thinner. Need to win at least 2 of the next 4, and ideally 3 of the next 4, and Illinois is still ok.

 

 

[whitesoxfan99]

Yes, losing to Winthrop is bad. No, it's not catastrophic. Margin of error gets a lot thinner. Need to win at least 2 of the next 4, and ideally 3 of the next 4, and Illinois is still ok.

 

Honestly, it just doesn't matter until Groce is fired. Illinois loves employing coaches too long. It is absolutely absurd that Weber and Groce will have been the coach of Illinois for the last 14 years (I'm just going to assume that this will be Groce's last year) and their combined high water mark for a team that wasn't gift wrapped with so much talent that just about anyone could win with is Weber's 2008-2009 season where Illinois twice failed to score 40 points. Awesome.

[Jenksismyhero]

The fact that he relies on Tate so much kills me. Why the hell is Tate in control of the offense in crunch time? Why isn't Groce screaming for Hill or Abrams to handle the ball at all times to get a bucket? After the game Groce actually said Tate did a good job on Johnson, the dude that put up 38 on them with a cramped foot. WTF is that?

 

That's how far this program has fallen. Not only do we lose, we lose at home and we lose at home to 100+ ranked teams.

 

Oh, and f*** Groce for saying this is a good thing, they needed it. No, you didn't need a loss or a close win as a reality check. You haven't been to the tournament in 3 years and your team is led by a senior and 2 guys that have been around for 5-6 seasons. That's "reality" enough. If you haven't instilled a desire/effort to win every game and get back to the tournament with this group, the majority of which are 4 star guys with experience, then nothing will.

 

He's a total embarrassment. I loved the hire, I think he's a good guy at heart, but for f***'s sake he's Jay Cutler. Excuse after excuse after excuse is given to him. How many of these losses do we have to take before we just finally admit he's not a good coach?

 

I'll stop paying attention if they miss the dance this year and he's allowed back for yet another season of mediocre basketball. And that really sucks because Illinois bball is the only team I watch 99.9% of games even when they suck. I've had it with the program if this nonsense remains acceptable.

[illinilaw08]

The fact that he relies on Tate so much kills me. Why the hell is Tate in control of the offense in crunch time? Why isn't Groce screaming for Hill or Abrams to handle the ball at all times to get a bucket? After the game Groce actually said Tate did a good job on Johnson, the dude that put up 38 on them with a cramped foot. WTF is that?

 

That's how far this program has fallen. Not only do we lose, we lose at home and we lose at home to 100+ ranked teams.

 

Oh, and f*** Groce for saying this is a good thing, they needed it. No, you didn't need a loss or a close win as a reality check. You haven't been to the tournament in 3 years and your team is led by a senior and 2 guys that have been around for 5-6 seasons. That's "reality" enough. If you haven't instilled a desire/effort to win every game and get back to the tournament with this group, the majority of which are 4 star guys with experience, then nothing will.

 

He's a total embarrassment. I loved the hire, I think he's a good guy at heart, but for f***'s sake he's Jay Cutler. Excuse after excuse after excuse is given to him. How many of these losses do we have to take before we just finally admit he's not a good coach?

 

I'll stop paying attention if they miss the dance this year and he's allowed back for yet another season of mediocre basketball. And that really sucks because Illinois bball is the only team I watch 99.9% of games even when they suck. I've had it with the program if this nonsense remains acceptable.

 

Saw it last year with Austin and the year before with Ekey. Groce hasn't recruited/built rosters well enough to have two way players he can rely on at the end of games. So when he has to choose between Austin and JCL or Tate and JCL at the end of games, he's going with the guy he trusts more defensively.* It is beyond frustrating as a strategy.

 

I'm fine with the postgame comments. I'd rather a coach be excessively positive in the press conference than throw the players under the bus. The proof of whether this game got through to the team or not will be how they play against WVU on Thursday.

 

* I thought Tate did ok on Johnson at times. The kid hit some ridiculous shots where you just have to tip your cap. Off the top of my head, the only possession where I was really mad at Tate defensively was in OT at 80-78 with under 5 left to shoot, Tate bit on a fake, got himself completely out of position, and allowed Johnson a basically uncontested layup.

[Balta1701]

Sigh. The usual Indiana early season inexplicable stinker.

[southsider2k5]

I didn't even realize that IPFW was up to D1 now. I remember my D3 school playing them when I was in college.

[southsider2k5]

ESPN Stats & Info ‏@ESPNStatsInfo 3h3 hours ago Fort Wayne: First win in program history over an AP ranked team (was 0-14 and all 14 losses came by double digits).