The Bathroom Dilemma

[cabiness42]

What if you're transgendered and outwardly appear to be one sex, but you haven't undergone the surgery? Should a person with female genitalia who presents himself and looks very much like a man use the women's restrooms, or vice-versa?

 

But as you said, these laws are looking for a problem that doesn't exist. If some man wanted to dress as a woman to enter women's restrooms to leer at other women, there's nothing stopping them from doing that now and this law changes nothing.

 

Legally, I don't know how you separate this, but I see restrooms and locker rooms differently. In a restroom, with just toilets and sinks and no showers, you can pretty much use the restroom anonymously. I don't think you need new laws that regulate anything.

 

Locker rooms, where people take showers are different. It becomes obvious to everybody what biological gender you are. That's where I will fight for my daughter's right to not have people with penises in there with her, regardless of how they identify. Not all locker rooms have individual shower stalls with curtains. There can be some other way to accommodate people who aren't comfortable showering with their own gender. If not, I can just have my daughter claim to be Muslim and against her religion to see a male naked so they will have to accommodate her because we can't discriminate against Muslims.

Edited April 18, 2016 by HickoryHuskers

[NorthSideSox72]

What if you're transgendered and outwardly appear to be one sex, but you haven't undergone the surgery? Should a person with female genitalia who presents himself and looks very much like a man use the women's restrooms, or vice-versa?

 

But as you said, these laws are looking for a problem that doesn't exist. If some man wanted to dress as a woman to enter women's restrooms to leer at other women, there's nothing stopping them from doing that now and this law changes nothing.

 

There is some point in between where it gets tough. Just pick the one closest at that point, I guess. If you're male and decide to be female, you've already been using the men's room forever. Just keep doing so until the surgical, physical changes are done, then switch. Again, I think we are overcomplicating something that doesn't need to be. All because some people really, really want to show the world they are allowed to be jerks, so they pass laws like this and we have to discuss extreme corner cases that have always existed and aren't really problems.

 

[Jose Abreu]

If nobody is being forced to use gender-neutral bathrooms, I don't see why that would bother anybody.

Agreed. Whether or not you support the installation of gender-neutral bathrooms, you aren't affected by it. That can't be explained to the hundreds of students who were up in arms over it, though.

[StrangeSox]

There is some point in between where it gets tough. Just pick the one closest at that point, I guess. If you're male and decide to be female, you've already been using the men's room forever. Just keep doing so until the surgical, physical changes are done, then switch. Again, I think we are overcomplicating something that doesn't need to be. All because some people really, really want to show the world they are allowed to be jerks, so they pass laws like this and we have to discuss extreme corner cases that have always existed and aren't really problems.

Not everyone who transitions genders gets surgery, though.

 

I agree that trying to codify this overcomplicates things.

[Texsox]

This is one of those araes where I guess I become republican in a hurry.

[knightni]

It's almost as if people forget that there are stalls with locks on them.

 

Someone that identifies as a certain sex goes into a stall in that bathroom, shuts the door, locks it, uses the facilities, flushes, unlocks the door, washes their hands, and leaves.

 

 

No big deal.

 

 

 

[RockRaines]

It's almost as if people forget that there are stalls with locks on them.

 

Someone that identifies as a certain sex goes into a stall in that bathroom, shuts the door, locks it, uses the facilities, flushes, unlocks the door, washes their hands, and leaves.

 

 

No big deal.

I mean, I've always wanted to pretend to be trans so I could sneak into a womens bathroom to see and hear them poop. Yum!!

[Iwritecode]

It's almost as if people forget that there are stalls with locks on them.

 

Someone that identifies as a certain sex goes into a stall in that bathroom, shuts the door, locks it, uses the facilities, flushes, unlocks the door, washes their hands, and leaves.

 

 

No big deal.

 

 

I mean, I've always wanted to pretend to be trans so I could sneak into a womens bathroom to see and hear them poop. Yum!!

 

I keep seeing this straw-man argument all over Facebook. But it's not just bathrooms. It's locker rooms and showers as well, which is a much, much bigger problem.

 

 

[RockRaines]

I keep seeing this straw-man argument all over Facebook. But it's not just bathrooms. It's locker rooms and showers as well, which is a much, much bigger problem.

Because?

[Y2Jimmy0]

My family used the same bathroom in my childhood home. I have no idea how we ever got by.

[Iwritecode]

Because?

 

Because most locker rooms and showers don't have individual and lockable stall doors? You're much more "open" in them compared to bathrooms.

 

If some guy wants to claim that he feels like a woman that day and goes into the women's locker room there's no way to really stop them.

 

Like this guy did.

[RockRaines]

Because most locker rooms and showers don't have individual and lockable stall doors? You're much more "open" in them compared to bathrooms.

 

If some guy wants to claim that he feels like a woman that day and goes into the women's locker room there's no way to really stop them.

 

Like this guy did.

Stats to back that one up?

 

So we are worried about the chance that someone can walk into the opposite sex locker room and what exactly?

[Jenksismyhero]

I think it's disingenuous to pretend like people won't abuse this law to be creeps. That said, i'm sure the actual instances of this happening are going to be rare.

[RockRaines]

I think it's disingenuous to pretend like people won't abuse this law to be creeps. That said, i'm sure the actual instances of this happening are going to be rare.

I mean they can still do that now as well, but its also going to be rare to have gender neutral open air showers at gyms and whatnot. We would see more things like what you see in bars and the like which is single room bathrooms.

 

Private establishments would most likely be able to enforce their own policies.

Edited April 19, 2016 by RockRaines

[Iwritecode]

Stats to back that one up?

 

Only anecdotal evidence. But you've been in a locker room right? High school maybe? YMCA? Heath club? Gym? They are pretty open.

 

Here's some pictures of a few.

 

 

So we are worried about the chance that someone can walk into the opposite sex locker room and what exactly?

 

I don't know about you but I don't think I'd feel comfortable sending my daughters into a locker room to change and having some guy in there watching them simply because he has a "legal right" to be there.

 

I can't believe I'm seriously having to explain this...

Edited April 19, 2016 by Iwritecode

[RockRaines]

Only anecdotal evidence. But you've been in a locker room right? High school maybe? YMCA? Heath club? Gym? They are pretty open.

 

Here's some pictures of a few.

 

 

 

 

I don't know about you but I don't think I'd feel comfortable sending my daughters into a locker room to change and having some guy in there watching them simply because he has a "legal right" to be there.

 

I can't believe I'm seriously having to explain this...

Yes, the last 5 gyms I have been a member of has separate shower stalls, so does my country club. Open showers have been passe for decades.

 

What locker room is this guy going to walk into? And are we assuming women wouldnt be smart enough to go somewhere else or report someone for just watching them? Are you afraid of lesbians watching your daughters undress?

[Jenksismyhero]

I mean they can still do that now as well, but its also going to be rare to have gender neutral open air showers at gyms and whatnot. We would see more things like what you see in bars and the like which is single room bathrooms.

 

Private establishments would most likely be able to enforce their own policies.

 

But in the example provided, all the creep-o has to do is say he identifies as a woman and there's not much that can be done. That's the way the law is written. You can't very well have laws that then make this guy prove he's trans, that defeats the whole purpose of protecting his privacy.

 

Re: the bolded, perhaps things have changed in the last 15-20 years, but my high school (brand new in 1999-2000) still had a communal shower room. My gym in college had a big shower room with some curtains, but the locker room itself was still a big empty room with lockers on the outside walls. Someone with experience in private gyms can pipe in, but i'd imagine it's a safe assumption even there you have communal areas where changing takes place. We're not talking about single bathrooms here.

 

Private establishments are still going to have to abide by state law, like the Washington case that was cited. edit: looks like that was a commission that made the rule in that scenario, not the state legislature. Still, if it becomes a state law, private institutions are still going to have to abide by it.

Edited April 19, 2016 by JenksIsMyHero

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, the last 5 gyms I have been a member of has separate shower stalls, so does my country club. Open showers have been passe for decades.

 

What locker room is this guy going to walk into? And are we assuming women wouldnt be smart enough to go somewhere else or report someone for just watching them? Are you afraid of lesbians watching your daughters undress?

 

It appears he walked into a Seattle Parks and Rec locker room that had a girls swim team in it.

[RockRaines]

But in the example provided, all the creep-o has to do is say he identifies as a woman and there's not much that can be done. That's the way the law is written. You can't very well have laws that then make this guy prove he's trans, that defeats the whole purpose of protecting his privacy.

 

Re: the bolded, perhaps things have changed in the last 15-20 years, but my high school (brand new in 1999-2000) still had a communal shower room. My gym in college had a big shower room with some curtains, but the locker room itself was still a big empty room with lockers on the outside walls. Someone with experience in private gyms can pipe in, but i'd imagine it's a safe assumption even there you have communal areas where changing takes place. We're not talking about single bathrooms here.

 

Private establishments are still going to have to abide by state law, like the Washington case that was cited. edit: looks like that was a commission that made the rule in that scenario, not the state legislature. Still, if it becomes a state law, private institutions are still going to have to abide by it.

Thanks for the background. Obviously under age kids should be protected from adults coming into their space in schools and whatnot. the only people walking around naked in any gym or club I've joined are over the age of 65. Good for you if you want to come in and creep that out.

 

In the bathroom example, like I said, its not going to be much of an issue at all.

Edited April 19, 2016 by RockRaines

[bmags]

our high school also had an open shower, but nobody used it. And frankly the Dennis Hastert thing is probably going to cause things to change. At least I would probably want them to in that case.

[RockRaines]

our high school also had an open shower, but nobody used it. And frankly the Dennis Hastert thing is probably going to cause things to change. At least I would probably want them to in that case.

The opportunity for predatory adults to be around children is going to have to govern any decision on stuff like this, however even today kids of both sexes are allowed into either sex bathroom and/or lockerroom

 

The percentage of ACTUAL people who will identify as the other sex is so small, you wont even notice it, in fact you probably already havent. Its not like Trans people all over the country want to wave their flags and be persecuted by people afraid of them as predators.

Edited April 19, 2016 by RockRaines

[EvilMonkey]

Stats to back that one up?

 

So we are worried about the chance that someone can walk into the opposite sex locker room and what exactly?

And you are worried about the less than .5% amount of people that identify as trans?

[Texsox]

At some point the government just has to force people to do stuff they might not find optimum.

[cabiness42]

And you are worried about the less than .5% amount of people that identify as trans?

 

I don't think people are worried about the actual trans people. People are worried about the straight guys who will claim to be trans in order to go into a women's shower room. People are also worried about their daughters being forced to see naked men, trans or straight.

[pettie4sox]

I don't think people are worried about the actual trans people. People are worried about the straight guys who will claim to be trans in order to go into a women's shower room. People are also worried about their daughters being forced to see naked men, trans or straight.

 

Yes, because women can't be perverts obviously.