Jason >>>>>>>>>>> Hawk

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I like Benetti. But whether you like Hawk or Benetti, no one was better than Harry Carey in his prime. Check out this clip from 1974 with Nolan Ryan taking a no-hitter into the bottom of th ninth at White Sox Park: https://youtu.be/pliinyC3h64

[Thad Bosley]

I like Benetti. But whether you like Hawk or Benetti, no one was better than Harry Carey in his prime. Check out this clip from 1974 with Nolan Ryan taking a no-hitter into the bottom of th ninth at White Sox Park: https://youtu.be/pliinyC3h64

You are exactly correct about Harry Caray. And if our inept owner had left well enough alone back in 1981 when he had the ultimate package of Harry Caray AND WGN together, we wouldn't be talking about attendance problems today.

 

The inimitable Caray was well on his way to selling the White Sox experience to a national audience on 'GN back in '81 the same way he would eventually do with the Cubs a few years later, which garnered them the national popularity that they enjoy to this very day. There has been nary an empty seat in Wrigley Field in over 30 years now, and that's primarily due to the effect of Caray on 'GN selling the Cubs back in the 80s.

 

Could of/should of been us, folks. It's that simple. Letting Caray go over petty reasons was a mistake of the highest consequence on the part of Reinsdorf & Co. that will characterize, among many other things, a failed legacy as owner of our Sox.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[Quin]

You are exactly correct about Harry Caray. And if our inept owner had left well enough alone back in 1981 when he had the ultimate package of Harry Caray AND WGN together, we wouldn't be talking about attendance problems today.

 

The inimitable Caray was well on his way to selling the White Sox experience to a national audience on 'GN back in '81 the same way he would eventually do with the Cubs a few years later, which garnered them the national popularity that they enjoy to this very day. There has been nary an empty seat in Wrigley Field in over 30 years now, and that's primarily due to the effect of Caray on 'GN selling the Cubs back in the 80s.

 

Could of/should of been us, folks. It's that simple. Letting Caray go over petty reasons was a mistake of the highest consequence on the part of Reinsdorf & Co. that will characterize, among many other things, a failed legacy as owner of our Sox.

 

They offered Caray more money than the Cubs. They didn't let him go over petty reasons.

 

SportsVision was a bad idea, but don't act like they wanted to get rid of Caray.

 

[Green Line]

You are exactly correct about Harry Caray. And if our inept owner had left well enough alone back in 1981 when he had the ultimate package of Harry Caray AND WGN together, we wouldn't be talking about attendance problems today.

 

The inimitable Caray was well on his way to selling the White Sox experience to a national audience on 'GN back in '81 the same way he would eventually do with the Cubs a few years later, which garnered them the national popularity that they enjoy to this very day. There has been nary an empty seat in Wrigley Field in over 30 years now, and that's primarily due to the effect of Caray on 'GN selling the Cubs back in the 80s.

 

Could of/should of been us, folks. It's that simple. Letting Caray go over petty reasons was a mistake of the highest consequence on the part of Reinsdorf & Co. that will characterize, among many other things, a failed legacy as owner of our Sox.

And yet that failed owner has a World Series title in that time frame. How much success have your vaunted Harry Caray led Cubs have? I'll take Reinsdorf.

[southsider2k5]

You are exactly correct about Harry Caray. And if our inept owner had left well enough alone back in 1981 when he had the ultimate package of Harry Caray AND WGN together, we wouldn't be talking about attendance problems today.

 

The inimitable Caray was well on his way to selling the White Sox experience to a national audience on 'GN back in '81 the same way he would eventually do with the Cubs a few years later, which garnered them the national popularity that they enjoy to this very day. There has been nary an empty seat in Wrigley Field in over 30 years now, and that's primarily due to the effect of Caray on 'GN selling the Cubs back in the 80s.

 

Could of/should of been us, folks. It's that simple. Letting Caray go over petty reasons was a mistake of the highest consequence on the part of Reinsdorf & Co. that will characterize, among many other things, a failed legacy as owner of our Sox.

 

Harry was here for a decade. Exactly how long should his magic have taken to work?

[Dick Allen]

Harry was here for a decade. Exactly how long should his magic have taken to work?

And the Cubs were on WGN. There was no way the Sox could get a full season of games on there at that time. Ironically JR's first year of ownership was the first year they were on WGN since the 60's.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, for that WGN scenario to make sense, you'd have to jump to a big stretch that Harry Caray and the White Sox would have been drawing such big ratings that they would have gone exclusively with White Sox games.

 

Both teams in the early 80's, were pretty up and down. The Sox had 1983, the Cubs 1984...and then 1987 and 1989 (earthquake offseason).

 

It's almost impossible to imagine WGN being interested in the Sox as a property from 1985 until the opening of the new stadium. That was just a "dead era" for White Sox baseball until you had all of our Top 10 collegiate draft picks make an impact at the end of the decade (McDowell/Ventura/Thomas/Fernandez).

 

Vin Scully or Ernie Harwell couldn't have done anything to make those Sox teams interesting for a national audience...and they were not very fun to watch offensively, even worse, they were just dull other than Ozzie, Bainesy and Ivan Calderon.

Edited May 14, 2016 by caulfield12

[Thad Bosley]

White Sox historian Richard C. Lindberg, on Harry Caray:

 

Allowing legendary broadcaster Harry Caray to go to the Cubs after the 1981 season was a mistake, he said.

 

"That helped contribute to the rise of the Cubs and the sinking of the White Sox during those years", Lindberg said.

 

That's putting it mildly, but at least this renowned historian on all things White Sox understands the breadth of this the first of many crippling mistakes the current owner would make over the course of his tenure as owner.

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

White Sox historian Richard C. Lindberg, on Harry Caray:

 

Allowing legendary broadcaster Harry Caray to go to the Cubs after the 1981 season was a mistake, he said.

 

"That helped contribute to the rise of the Cubs and the sinking of the White Sox during those years", Lindberg said.

 

That's putting it mildly, but at least this renowned historian on all things White Sox understands the breadth of this the first of many crippling mistakes the current owner would make over the course of his tenure as owner.

 

Yeah, I am going to guess that Sox fans wouldn't have somehow been brainwashed by Harry Caray, if he hadn't have been able to do so in the 10 years he was here.

[Thad Bosley]

Yeah, I am going to guess that Sox fans wouldn't have somehow been brainwashed by Harry Caray, if he hadn't have been able to do so in the 10 years he was here.

I'm not quite sure what any of that is supposed to mean, but what I do know is Harry Caray was immensely popular with White Sox fans and that was reflected in the attendance back in those days. That was half the reason the Sox brought him to Chicago in the first place - to help with attendance. He had a bonus in his contract tied to increased attendance, and the Sox actually had to cancel that bonus a few years into the deal because they couldn't afford to pay it, it had gotten so big. And he managed to accomplish all of that and have the influence he had only broadcasting on a tin can radio network and Channel 44. Pretty impressive to say the least.

 

Fast forward to 1981, and now Harry had the power of superstation WGN behind him. And in his short stint on 'GN as a Sox broadcaster, the Sox set TV ratings records for the team and attendance was beginning to skyrocket before the strike occurred that year. It was very clear at that time that the Sox were moving into a whole new and exciting era with the team on WGN and Harry leading the way. Well, clear to most people, except the owners, who within a blink of an eye let both Harry and WGN slip away in favor of...SportsVision. If that doesn't scream purely inept, I don't know what does. White Sox historian Richard Lindberg seems to agree.

[caulfield12]

Actually, in many ways, the Sportsvision idea was literally and figuratively the first regional sports network, and was, for lack of a better descriptor, visionary....unfortunately, twenty years ahead of its time.

 

Brilliant idea, but terribly executed.

 

It's actually more admirable than the "playing it safe mode" we saw the past three years.

Edited May 14, 2016 by caulfield12

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I'm not quite sure what any of that is supposed to mean, but what I do know is Harry Caray was immensely popular with White Sox fans and that was reflected in the attendance back in those days. That was half the reason the Sox brought him to Chicago in the first place - to help with attendance. He had a bonus in his contract tied to increased attendance, and the Sox actually had to cancel that bonus a few years into the deal because they couldn't afford to pay it, it had gotten so big. And he managed to accomplish all of that and have the influence he had only broadcasting on a tin can radio network and Channel 44. Pretty impressive to say the least.

 

Fast forward to 1981, and now Harry had the power of superstation WGN behind him. And in his short stint on 'GN as a Sox broadcaster, the Sox set TV ratings records for the team and attendance was beginning to skyrocket before the strike occurred that year. It was very clear at that time that the Sox were moving into a whole new and exciting era with the team on WGN and Harry leading the way. Well, clear to most people, except the owners, who within a blink of an eye let both Harry and WGN slip away in favor of...SportsVision. If that doesn't scream purely inept, I don't know what does. White Sox historian Richard Lindberg seems to agree.

You are absolutely correct.

 

The reason Harry left the Sox was so he could broadcast on superstation WGN instead of to an extremely limited audience on pay TV Sportsvision. Harry Carey was extremely popular and was a big part of saving the Sox franchise in 1971. It was like a dagger in the heart of Sox fans to see/hear the commercials he made after leaving the Sox proclaiming, "I'm a Bud Man and a Cubs Fan!"

 

He didn't leave because he liked the Cubs, and he didn't leave for money, he left because he knew he could reach a nation wide audience on WGN. Subsequently, he played a major role in the surging popularity of the Cubs. Einhorn made a big mistake with Sportsvision.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I'm not quite sure what any of that is supposed to mean, but what I do know is Harry Caray was immensely popular with White Sox fans and that was reflected in the attendance back in those days. That was half the reason the Sox brought him to Chicago in the first place - to help with attendance. He had a bonus in his contract tied to increased attendance, and the Sox actually had to cancel that bonus a few years into the deal because they couldn't afford to pay it, it had gotten so big. And he managed to accomplish all of that and have the influence he had only broadcasting on a tin can radio network and Channel 44. Pretty impressive to say the least.

 

Fast forward to 1981, and now Harry had the power of superstation WGN behind him. And in his short stint on 'GN as a Sox broadcaster, the Sox set TV ratings records for the team and attendance was beginning to skyrocket before the strike occurred that year. It was very clear at that time that the Sox were moving into a whole new and exciting era with the team on WGN and Harry leading the way. Well, clear to most people, except the owners, who within a blink of an eye let both Harry and WGN slip away in favor of...SportsVision. If that doesn't scream purely inept, I don't know what does. White Sox historian Richard Lindberg seems to agree.

 

We didn't even win the Chicago market when Caray was a White Sox broadcaster, which would seem like the logical result to see if any of this were actually true. One of the two years (out of 10) that we did out draw the Cubs was the South Side Hitmen. Guess what happened after that? Attendance fell every single season after that until Caray left. We went from 1.65 million in 1977 to 1.2 million by 1980, (that is a fall of 25+%!)excluding the 1981 strike year. The two seasons before 1977, we hadn't even drawn a million fans in either season.

 

The attendance numbers weren't trending up at all, except when the Sox were good. There was zero Harry Caray effect with the White Sox. Then, just like now, they followed the bandwagon.

[Lip Man 1]

Ironic that this discussion began yesterday / today:

 

http://www.chicagonow.com/soxnet/2016/05/t...svision-debuts/

 

Also there is a link to a detailed history of SportsVision with quotes directly from Harry and the owners over the entire situation.

 

Mark

 

[chitownsportsfan]

Plezac was f***ing awesome last light! Wow. What a great blend of saber analysis with insight from his playing days.

[SI1020]

Plezac was f***ing awesome last light! Wow. What a great blend of saber analysis with insight from his playing days.

I don't know what your take is but I heard an announcer that isn't blindly obedient to the religion of saber. Both he and Hawk talked about the Saber contention that strikeouts don't matter, an out is an out, and then compared that to the Royals approach of putting the ball in play. Plesac also mentioned Moneyball and the cult of Billy Beane. He said it wasn't OBP it was three top of the line starting pitchers. He said that having top notch pitching is more important than saber this and saber that. For this and a variety of other reasons I thoroughly enjoyed listening to Hawk and Dan last night. So much nicer than the cutesy duo of Jason Benetti and Steve Stone, and I actually like Stone.

 

I don't get most of the criticism of Hawk and I find most of it to be uncalled for or just plain pathetic.

By the way, I have to discount any criticism that Hawk is a "homer" because so much of that comes from cubfans.

 

Perhaps those who are old enough to remember Harry at Comiskey never tired of hearing "Holy Cow" for a decade followed by another ten years of it at Wrigley. Now Harry Caray's memory, the horn rimmed glasses, his restaurants and his 7th inning stretch call (which he did for 10 years at Comiskey) are part of cub tradition and remembered fondly by older Sox fans..

 

I wonder which announcer Hawk's critics believe has been as good or better than Hawk" Maybe Vin Scully, Harry Kalas, or one of the other all time greats? Baseball is a game of tradition so trashing someone who is a big part of White Sox tradition is something that I find to be curious.

 

Anyone who does not understand that Hawk went down to see Frazier because Hawk was personally concerned (as opposed to going down there because no beat reporter was there) is missing the point. Hawk loves the team that he has been loyal to for decades and loves the players. He was one himself and knows what it is like to be injured on the field and what a serious injury to a key player could mean to this team.

 

I think Hawk is doing the right thing by cutting down on games until another full-time announcer is decided upon. My own opinion is that the new play-by-play person should not be Jason Benetti. Benetti has been just awful and I am being generous because he is a nice young man. I am going to start putting on the radio so I do not have to listen to his trite nonsense, his sophomoric questions and his lame attempt at being the straight man comic in his back and forth with Stone.

 

When Hawk indicates he wants to retire, I hope the Sox start to audition guest announcers to take over play by play full time after Hawk retires. Although Dan Plesac may not be a candidate, it will be very interesting to hear Plesac and Harrelson in the booth at Yankee stadium this weekend.

I completely agree on all counts. I think the major percentage of Sox fans are rooting for Jason Benetti a young man who is a Sox fan and has overcome so much in his life. I want to say I like him but have to agree with your assessment. I really enjoyed Plesac and Harrelson last night.

 

[soxforlife05]

I completely agree on all counts. I think the major percentage of Sox fans are rooting for Jason Benetti a young man who is a Sox fan and has overcome so much in his life. I want to say I like him but have to agree with your assessment. I really enjoyed Plesac and Harrelson last night.

 

I'm not a fan of Benetti. I always find myself listening to the away broadcast on the home games.

[Lip Man 1]

Guys, you can put money on this. As long as Jason wants the job it's his. And I think he's doing fine, though that doesn't mean I'd love to have Plesac come on board. He can replace DJ.

 

Mark

[flavum]

Why the hell would Plesac want to work for the Sox? He's got a home base in NJ talking about baseball, getting paid, and playing golf all the time.

[Thad Bosley]

We didn't even win the Chicago market when Caray was a White Sox broadcaster, which would seem like the logical result to see if any of this were actually true. One of the two years (out of 10) that we did out draw the Cubs was the South Side Hitmen. Guess what happened after that? Attendance fell every single season after that until Caray left. We went from 1.65 million in 1977 to 1.2 million by 1980, (that is a fall of 25+%!)excluding the 1981 strike year. The two seasons before 1977, we hadn't even drawn a million fans in either season.

 

The attendance numbers weren't trending up at all, except when the Sox were good. There was zero Harry Caray effect with the White Sox. Then, just like now, they followed the bandwagon.

Lol - only if facts are to be completely ignored. I mean, really - as absurd a statement as could be made in relation to the Chicago White Sox organization and it's history. Go forth with your fairy take view on it all you want, SS2K5. I'm with White Sox historian Richard Lindberg and so many others in the know who understand and recognize the tremendous impact Harry Caray had during his time with the White Sox, and the extraordinary missed opportunity the organization had when they let him slip away and go to the Cubs.

[Lip Man 1]

Lol - only if facts are to be completely ignored. I mean, really - as absurd a statement as could be made in relation to the Chicago White Sox organization and it's history. Go forth with your fairy take view on it all you want, SS2K5. I'm with White Sox historian Richard Lindberg and so many others in the know who understand and recognize the tremendous impact Harry Caray had during his time with the White Sox, and the extraordinary missed opportunity the organization had when they let him slip away and go to the Cubs.

 

Just my opinion and while I think it was a major mistake to let him go (but the fact is Harry wasn't staying unless they broke the bank for him - he hated the new owners and they hated him although the relationship did start well) the fact is that even if Harry stayed the city was going to 'turn' towards the Cubs because of the following factors that Harry would have no control over:

 

1. The Cubs winning in 1984 which completely stole the Sox thunder.

2. The Sox sucking in 1984 and not being able to follow up and keep building momentum.

3. The Wrigleyville area turning into one big frat house.

4. The number of yuppies who moved into the area as well as downtown and who became Cub fans.

5. SportsVision

 

But perhaps most importantly because it was the philosophy of new ownership since they took control to not take the Cubs on head to head. How many times did Eddie Einhorn say, "we're Chicago's American League team..." to convince someone that was not going to happen.

 

Then you had JR's radio comment before the first ever real game between the Sox and Cubs that, "Chicago has always been a Cubs town."

 

Given that JR lived in Chicago since the late 50's, he should have known better.

 

I understand Thad where you are coming from but the issue isn't as cut and dried as you make it out to be.

 

Mark

Edited May 15, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

Along with that:

 

1) The quaintness of "day baseball" and the fact that Wrigley Field was slowly moving towards historic park status while Comiskey was an aging and decrepit dinosaur.

 

2) Arnie Harris'/Caray's constant promotion of the "bikini babes in the bleachers" and Budweiser/party atmosphere, which has always been sorely lacking around 35th and Shields. If you were to name the top reasons to go to Sox games, "seeing pretty girls" was never one of them.

 

3) The 80's also saw more polarization/gentrification with the public housing....I remember as a 12-13 year old feeling a little bit scared in that area (at night), coming from my relatively protected environment in Iowa. All the favorable trends economically were moving to the Northside.

 

4) The excitement around Ryne Sandberg at that stage of his career...Baines was a great hitter in his own right, but, beginning with that Bruce Sutter/Cubs and Cardinals national Saturday game in 1984, there was just no much hype around Sandberg and also Andre Dawson compared to the quieter Sox players like Baines (I won't go there with Ozzie). Later on, you'd have a young Greg Maddux and then the Sammy Sosa Show.

 

5) Frank Thomas just had this aspect of his personality when he became a superstar that kept him from reaching that same "beloved" status as Jordan and eventually Sosa...you respected the hell out of Thomas and his hitting ability, it's a bit hard to explain, part of it being related to marketing, part of it to perception. Same thing with Carlton Fisk while he played for the Sox, greatly respected but far from beloved by everyone.

Edited May 15, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Lol - only if facts are to be completely ignored. I mean, really - as absurd a statement as could be made in relation to the Chicago White Sox organization and it's history. Go forth with your fairy take view on it all you want, SS2K5. I'm with White Sox historian Richard Lindberg and so many others in the know who understand and recognize the tremendous impact Harry Caray had during his time with the White Sox, and the extraordinary missed opportunity the organization had when they let him slip away and go to the Cubs.

 

The facts are right there in front of you. The numbers don't support your theory, at all. Your "facts" are reliant on the opinion of someone. My are based on real life actual numbers. Attendance fell during the last half of Caray's time with the White Sox by about 25%.

[Southwest Sider]

I know it's straying off topic from Jason vs. Hawk, but I want to chime in on some of the Cubs vs Sox talk and pose a question I have been pondering recently.

 

In the event that Michael Jordan was actually awesome at baseball and played his career out on the White Sox, do you think he would have heavily influenced fan interest towards the Sox? Do you think he would have made no impact, brought it close to 50/50, or turn it into a Sox town?

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Yeah, that's an interesting one to ponder...or if Bo Jackson miraculously returned to his former athletic status after the hip surgery.

 

Of course, the problem there is the strike KILLED the White Sox more than most teams, so the only way the Jordan theory makes sense is if he was good enough to help push the Sox back into the playoffs from 1995-97.

 

And then he's leaving his legacy as the greatest player in the history of basketball behind to be, maybe, an All-Star...I guess the post said "awesome," sure...if he was an MVP-caliber outfielder, that would have made a huge difference.

 

Same with the "what if Sammy Sosa became the same player (enhanced) for the White Sox he was for the Cubs?"

 

Can go around and around forever with those thoughts.