The Beast Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 21, 2016 -> 08:37 PM) Ramos might be the only one (along with Jansen) you can get for less than $50 million on a 3 year contract. With Robertson's presence for another two seasons, hard to imagine they'd invest another $10-12 million per season on a reliever with all the other positional holes. Santana probably will have his option picked up for 2017, especially if the Indians make the post-season. Bringing back Gio a 3rd time would be pretty humorous...and result in a Shark-like season in the AL. It does go to show how hard it is to find catching solutions that are not just band-aids. Even someone like Francisco Cervelli is earning over $10 million per season. Great posts as always. If the Sox would draft and get the Schwarbers, Bryants and got the Solers and Russells of the world, we wouldn't be in the predicament we are in with respect to talent in the minor leagues. I would love if they had some depth at catcher that was productive and not just imported stop gap players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (SpankyEaton @ May 21, 2016 -> 07:47 PM) The only players that appeal to me are: Kenley Jansen Gio Gonzalez Carlos Santana Josh Reddick Colby Rasmus Ian Desmond Matt Wieters Wilson Ramos I don't know much about the minor league system that we have but I hope that at least one or two of the guys you've mentioned can come in and contribute. I don't regret trading Thompson to get Frazier either - they needed smeone to play third that didn't suck. Who knows what will happen, I just hope they draft better, play better and get better overall. Otherwise, we'll have to hope they sell the team when JR passes. I regret trading Thompson the day it happened because I still don't believe you needed to give him up to get Frazier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Well, as far as the Thompson trade goes, it might as been as much about the Dodgers believing he would be happier in his home state and closer to his brother. Plus, it's more beneficial for their marketing (which doesn't need so much help, except for the tv viewership issues) for him to play in SoCal. He's also very good friends with Nolan Arenado, who makes his home in the NL West. That elevated comfort level has to be a significant part of his success. If you realistically look at it, with Pederson, Van Slyke, Puig, Crawford, Hernandez (can play everywhere) and Ethier, at the time of the deal....he seemed quite superfluous (even more than Micah). Now with Ethier injured and Puig/Crawford struggling, he's become vitally important. 930 OPS with 7 homers and 19 RBI's in only 88 AB's is pretty darned impressive. So far, he's actually raised the OPS he put up with the Sox, which was heavily inflated by a hot streak for 3 weeks or so in the beginning. It is a bit frustrating we haven't even come close to producing even an 800 OPS guy since Beckham's 2009 season and now we have Carter at 893 and Trayce well over 900. Marcus Semien also has 10 homers and a 742 playing half his games at 0.C0. 7 of Semien's homers have come in that park, where there aren't any cheapie homers, especially at night when it's cold and crisp. It would have been awesomely exciting to see a Sox line-up with Thompson, Eaton, Avi Garcia, Semien, Tim Anderson, Micah Johnson/Saladino/Sanchez and Carter take the field together as a unit. Well, MAYBE not Avi. Edited May 22, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 21, 2016 -> 11:32 PM) Well, as far as the Thompson trade goes, it might as been as much about the Dodgers believing he would be happier in his home state and closer to his brother. Plus, it's more beneficial for their marketing (which doesn't need so much help, except for the tv viewership issues) for him to play in SoCal. He's also very good friends with Nolan Arenado, who makes his home in the NL West. That elevated comfort level has to be a significant part of his success. If you realistically look at it, with Pederson, Van Slyke, Puig, Crawford, Hernandez (can play everywhere) and Ethier, at the time of the deal....he seemed quite superfluous (even more than Micah). Now with Ethier injured and Puig/Crawford struggling, he's become vitally important. 930 OPS with 7 homers and 19 RBI's in only 88 AB's is pretty darned impressive. So far, he's actually raised the OPS he put up with the Sox, which was heavily inflated by a hot streak for 3 weeks or so in the beginning. It is a bit frustrating we haven't even come close to producing even an 800 OPS guy since Beckham's 2009 season and now we have Carter at 893 and Trayce well over 900. Marcus Semien also has 10 homers and a 742 playing half his games at 0.C0. 7 of Semien's homers have come in that park, where there aren't any cheapie homers, especially at night when it's cold and crisp. It would have been awesomely exciting to see a Sox line-up with Thompson, Eaton, Avi Garcia, Semien, Tim Anderson, Micah Johnson/Saladino/Sanchez and Carter take the field together as a unit. Well, MAYBE not Avi. Well I think you could've pushed the deal to just make it between you and the Reds. No one else was going to trade for Frazier. I am glad I get to catch Thompson live now as I live in LA and have gone to a couple of Dodger games because of him, but I thought it was an overpay for the White Sox since the Reds had no other suitors for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ May 21, 2016 -> 11:49 PM) Well I think you could've pushed the deal to just make it between you and the Reds. No one else was going to trade for Frazier. I am glad I get to catch Thompson live now as I live in LA and have gone to a couple of Dodger games because of him, but I thought it was an overpay for the White Sox since the Reds had no other suitors for him. I really felt like the Reds got the short stick of the deal and LA made out the best with the Sox coming in second. I think because Andersom wasn't in discussions a third team was needed. And that lineup that was mentioned with Carter, Semien, Eaton and Thompson, that's a great lineup. Hopefully they won't have to deal talent like that in future transactions and can have them for the future. Trade some pitching for a change if they have some studs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ May 21, 2016 -> 06:42 PM) Agree with the Crede. After 06 I identified Thome as the entire problem with the White Sox. He was brutal to watch IMO. I know he somehow got on base, but he made me want to create a whole new statistic to send into fangraphs: POBP- Pointless On Base Percentage. Or OBP that doesn't help a team. 2007 Thome would have been the second best WAR player on the 2005 White Sox. You're completely wrong about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Jim Thome was a very, very good player for the White Sox. The issues that came because Kenny traded for him were not his fault and he should not be blamed for one damn thing that happened afterwards. The problem with the Thome trade was that it changed the dynamic of the White Sox. In 2005 the White Sox were among the top five teams in the league in the following categories: Home Runs Stolen Bases Sacrifice Flys Sacrifice Bunts Infield Hits They had a balanced offense that could beat you with a three run bomb, a bloop into short center or a bunt. It wasn't just "home run or nothing." Thome's acquisition made them basically a station to station offense as other have pointed out often it took three (sometimes) four hits to score a run because they simply didn't have speed with Thome, Konerko, Dye et al in the middle of the line up. Plus you lost a good center fielder in Aaron Roward in the process. The Sox thought they had his replacement in Brian Anderson. History shows they didn't. The large part of that goes to Anderson himself who enjoyed the night life and didn't take his job seriously. I was told by Gonzo Gonzales of the time in Cleveland when the Sox were getting ready to play the Indians. They had a tape going in the locker room of the pitcher for the players to watch. Gonzo said there were two players who were off watching cartoons. One of them was Anderson. Again Thome did nothing wrong, a gentleman, a credit to the game and in the near future a Hall of Famer. But it was his acquisition that caused a major shift in the Sox fortunes and ultimately a few years later led to an open break between Ozzie and Kenny over his services and the DH position. Mark Edited May 22, 2016 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) They did trade Reed and Santos, fwiw. Devenski to the Astros for Myers. As far as other competitors for Frazier, the Indians were very interested, as they didn't have a solution at that position coming into the year. Right now, they're using Uribe. As far as the 2005-06 teams go, a lot of players were never the same...Iguchi, Politte, Hermanson, Contreras after he got injured in May of 2006, Pods just never got back his aggressiveness on the basepaths, Crede and Jenks eventually fell apart physically. But yeah, they calculated wrong on Anderson vs. Young in CF, Javy became more a "big" game headache, you could name about 25 things. Freddy Garcia and Garland eventually started to lose their effectiveness as well. It was a veteran team, and all those players peaked, with just a few exceptions. So many what ifs...if Borchard became the player he was projected to be, or Josh Fields, just one of those guys making it would have made a huge difference, and they never would have had to trade for Thome. Of course, we don't know how long Rowand would have lasted in a White Sox uniform before he was permanently injured with his reckless style of play. Edited May 22, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 They did trade Reed and Santos, fwiw. Devenski to the Astros for Myers. As far as other competitors for Frazier, the Indians were very interested, as they didn't have a solution at that position coming into the year. Right now, they're using Uribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2016 -> 03:07 AM) They did trade Reed and Santos, fwiw. Devenski to the Astros for Myers. As far as other competitors for Frazier, the Indians were very interested, as they didn't have a solution at that position coming into the year. Right now, they're using Uribe. As far as the 2005-06 teams go, a lot of players were never the same...Iguchi, Politte, Hermanson, Contreras after he got injured in May of 2006, Pods just never got back his aggressiveness on the basepaths, Crede and Jenks eventually fell apart physically. But yeah, they calculated wrong on Anderson vs. Young in CF, Javy became more a "big" game headache, you could name about 25 things. Freddy Garcia and Garland eventually started to lose their effectiveness as well. It was a veteran team, and all those players peaked, with just a few exceptions. So many what ifs...if Borchard became the player he was projected to be, or Josh Fields, just one of those guys making it would have made a huge difference, and they never would have had to trade for Thome. Of course, we don't know how long Rowand would have lasted in a White Sox uniform before he was permanently injured with his reckless style of play. They are a testament of how inept the organization was under KW. Always drafting athletes instead of baseball players. Borchard was probably a victim of being brought up too soon. Fields is an example of terrible scouting/development. If a guy can't catch a baseball that's something you really can't improve upon at the professional level. That seems to be the problem with the minors. They have so many with hardly any baseball instinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (fathom @ May 21, 2016 -> 06:23 PM) Amazing how Crede is thought of as an all-time great and thome is brushed aside Agreed. I think Crede was/is overrated (thankful for contributions in 05 however). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Josh Fields, Courtney Hawkins and Borchard all came from that same drafting philosophy of just projecting power and hoping they can teach all the other aspects of baseball around it... Then they went through that time period of trying to develop their own leadoff hitter, so you saw the drafting of Walker and Mitchell. In many ways, Brian Anderson fit the same mode of "great athlete" with a questionable work ethic and perhaps lacking the desire to make himself a great player or study the game because everything came so easy to him in college or the lower minor leagues (his teammate Kinsler, who was overlooked by some, is ending up as borderline HOF guy when all is said and done). Then he was shocked to go through failure and never made the adjustment. Might actually have gotten one right with Trayce Thompson, but we'll never know now. Always thought Semien, because he wasn't a super high draft pick with a lot of attention on him, had a better chance to progress at his own pace as the top prospects always get "challenged" by the organization, rather than their level of play forcing the organization to make a decision on them. Edited May 22, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ May 22, 2016 -> 09:23 AM) Agreed. I think Crede was/is overrated (thankful for contributions in 05 however). Right. And he had a great 06 season. I like the guy a lot, but he was a defensive force who could hit in the clutch, but was a negative offensive player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Man there is enough drama in this thread for a Greek tragedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2016 -> 12:17 PM) Man there is enough drama in this thread for a Greek tragedy. ehhh.... would be a pretty boring greek tragedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ May 22, 2016 -> 12:23 PM) ehhh.... would be a pretty boring greek tragedy It makes for a pretty boring message board too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Depends on your point of view. I think it's a very lively discussion... a hell of a lot better than discussing someone's WAR on Tuesday's against left handed pitchers with a last name comprised of seven letters or less don't you think? Mark Edited May 22, 2016 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 There is no way ventura can survive much more of this bad play in the division? Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2016 -> 04:19 PM) It makes for a pretty boring message board too. We give you material to come in on your horse of optimism to try to save us all from the impending doom Edited May 25, 2016 by harkness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Well, thanks to the Twins, they're 9-5 in the division right now. Of course, the Royals and Tigers can also beat up on the Twins, too. Speaking of non-zombies, Trayce Thompson's 2/3 with another double and has his OPS up to 918. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 Have to win tomorrow so that the Indians leave town without gaining anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ May 24, 2016 -> 11:21 PM) There is no way ventura can survive much more of this bad play in the division? Right? If the White Sox blow this and Ventura isn't fired, I'm not sure Robin could do anything to get fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Line Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 If this weekend goes the way I expect it to (not well), Robin has to be fired, right? We will have squandered a 6 1/2 game lead in less than a month and are in complete free fall. Thats hard to do! This team is too talented to be mediocre. We have arguably the best 2 pitchers in the AL right now, and have already wasted years of Chris SAle and Quintana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ May 24, 2016 -> 11:23 PM) We give you material to come in on your horse of optimism to try to save us all from the impending doom But if you enjoy misery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 QUOTE (Deadpool @ May 24, 2016 -> 10:27 PM) If the White Sox blow this and Ventura isn't fired, I'm not sure Robin could do anything to get fired. He could be the mystery bomber in the t.v. series QUANTICO and still keep his job I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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