the pull pen was smoke and mirrors

[harkness99]

If you honestly think about it...

 

Nate Jones - good fast ball but no control, a one pitch pitcher with no control... not going to work well.

Dan Jennings - avg stuff no control.

Matt Albers - looked great early but never had over powering stuff or a lot of pitches to choose from.

Zach Duke - had to re-invent himself to get a 2nd chance at the majors... not overwhelming stuff and never has gotten people out consistently.

Zach Putnam - has been good lately but never been consistently good over the years.

Robertson - is decent at times but wilts quickly when things are going against him. Good control and curveball but a very underwhelming fast ball for a closer with 2 pitches.

 

There are some various no names that I left out here.

 

But if you look at that bullpen, objectively - it's certainly not great, its average at best - with a capability to be horrifically bad wit the lack of control and stuff.

[GreenSox]

This is true to an extent; but they are also mentally damaged right now.

and I know I'm a broken record, but the lack of development of young pitching is part of the problem because it requires band aid after band aid when you can't put a guy from the org in there.

[caulfield12]

Jones has a good slider in the sense Addison Reed had one...just can't locate it consistently enough for strikes.

 

Putnam deserves more opportunities again. He was a huge pleasant surprise two years ago.

 

Duke sucks. Hated that deal. Hahn trying to outsmart baseball. Didn't work.

 

Jennings is fine for second lefty.

 

Albers doesn't have ANY confidence at the moment. Shouldn't use him in high leverage again...not any time soon.

 

Yes, as Greg mentioned last year....Robertson on paper is better than reality, and he has shown a propensity for blowing games the last couple of seasons, more than you would expect for "elite" closer status and Top 3 closer salary.

 

Purke has looked decent. Kahnle should never have been in the situation he found himself in yesterday...being forced to intentionally walk those two. Jones-like FB but without much movement...get behind in the count and you get hit hard.

 

 

Really missing the "good" version of Jake Petricka from the last couple of years. Our main injury so far this year.

Edited May 29, 2016 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

They're not this bad. They're not "the best bullpen in the big leagues by a long shot" but they're also not this bad. They will snap back to decent. Robertson had a couple unbelievable losses last year but he's still a solid closer even if he's not worth his money. Jones will have a bad stretch but he's also a strong pitcher. Putnam was waiting for a bad streak and the way baseball always works is "everyone's brain goes bad at once" so they're all having bad streaks at once. Albers might be this bad, he hasn't convinced me yet. Their middle relief and lefties are Meh. They're not a "Great bullpen" and they looked like that in April but they're also not "worst bullpen in human history" like they have been the last few days.

[harkness99]

Who in the bullpen is great? or has a history of being great?

 

Or even a history of being good?

Edited May 29, 2016 by harkness

[caulfield12]

Technically, despite 11 runs allowed the first two games, they still entered as 4th or 5th in AL bullpen ERA entering today's games. Want to say 4th.

 

But surely during this 4-14 stretch, it has to be the worst bullpen in the AL by a safe margin. Not enough to wipe out the first 33 games of good work though.

 

 

 

 

[harkness99]

Technically, despite 11 runs allowed the first two games, they still entered as 4th or 5th in AL bullpen ERA entering today's games. Want to say 4th.

 

But surely during this 4-14 stretch, it has to be the worst bullpen in the AL by a safe margin. Not enough to wipe out the first 33 games of good work though.

 

Right... I'm just saying if you look at the group on paper - they look avg at best but potentially bad... now no one could have ever imagined this bad...

[caulfield12]

Who in the bullpen is great? or has a history of being great?

 

Or even a history of being good?

 

 

Robertson with the Yankees as Mariano's apprentice/set-up guy and then full-time closer.

 

That's about it. Putnam didn't last with the Cubs. Jones has flashed potential. Petricka the same, both failed starters.

 

Duke has only been good for that one season in MIL. Jennings was "decent" for the Marlins.

 

Albers has a pretty decent track record, but not of pitching like he did before that Baltimore series showed the crack in the dam.

[harkness99]

Robertson with the Yankees as Mariano's apprentice/set-up guy and then full-time closer.

 

That's about it. Putnam didn't last with the Cubs. Jones has flashed potential. Petricka the same, both failed starters.

 

Duke has only been good for that one season in MIL. Jennings was "decent" for the Marlins.

 

Albers has a pretty decent track record, but not of pitching like he did before that Baltimore series showed the crack in the dam.

 

Right that's kind of what im getting at... our bullpen isn't filled with guys with a ton of success in their past. Bullpen pitching is very fickle but if you look at we got - there is a lot of vulnerability there.

[greg775]

If you honestly think about it...

 

Nate Jones - good fast ball but no control, a one pitch pitcher with no control... not going to work well.

Dan Jennings - avg stuff no control.

Matt Albers - looked great early but never had over powering stuff or a lot of pitches to choose from.

Zach Duke - had to re-invent himself to get a 2nd chance at the majors... not overwhelming stuff and never has gotten people out consistently.

Zach Putnam - has been good lately but never been consistently good over the years.

Robertson - is decent at times but wilts quickly when things are going against him. Good control and curveball but a very underwhelming fast ball for a closer with 2 pitches.

 

There are some various no names that I left out here.

 

But if you look at that bullpen, objectively - it's certainly not great, its average at best - with a capability to be horrifically bad wit the lack of control and stuff.

 

I actually was loving our bullpen at 23-10. Coop needs to become Ned Yost and demand 7 innings from our starters. Just like every year in the Robin era, if our starter has to get yanked to start the seventh we're doomed.

Nate - never liked him cause of his weird delivery/motion. You've all disagreed with me.

Jennings - Just another guy. Gas can if he faces too many batters in a row.

Albers - Pathetic. Needs to lose 20 pounds and we'll talk.

Duke - Dogs***. One batter or two and pray the law of averages has him record an out?

Putnam - Doesn't thrill me.

David - Had been pretty damn good til that sickening outing. You really would think he was throwing the game. He was so bad. His biggest blunder was not knowing the defense and letting that grounder be an EASY DP. He goes for it and knocks the ball down. If he was throwing the game, that was the way to do it, interfere with an EASY DP. Know your defensive positioning, David. My gawd.

[harkness99]

I actually was loving our bullpen at 23-10. Coop needs to become Ned Yost and demand 7 innings from our starters. Just like every year in the Robin era, if our starter has to get yanked to start the seventh we're doomed.

Nate - never liked him cause of his weird delivery/motion. You've all disagreed with me.

Jennings - Just another guy. Gas can if he faces too many batters in a row.

Albers - Pathetic. Needs to lose 20 pounds and we'll talk.

Duke - Dogs***. One batter or two and pray the law of averages has him record an out?

Putnam - Doesn't thrill me.

David - Had been pretty damn good til that sickening outing. You really would think he was throwing the game. He was so bad. His biggest blunder was not knowing the defense and letting that grounder be an EASY DP. He goes for it and knocks the ball down. If he was throwing the game, that was the way to do it, interfere with an EASY DP. Know your defensive positioning, David. My gawd.

 

Yep again look at what we have in the bullpen... its not exactly a fortress of ability.

[kitekrazy]

Don Cooper is the smoke and mirrors.

[caulfield12]

Back to Saturday's game

 

The other thing about this plate appearance is that I watched it twice, plus all the replays, and I've never once been 100% convinced Cain was actually safe at first. I understand the White Sox still had the lead here, but they had to be feeling like things were starting to get away from them, and if Cain was out, that's the end of the game. I can't believe they didn't even ask for a moment to check the replay. If I was them, I'd've asked for an umpire review just on general principle here. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

 

Saw this on-line....why didn't Ventura challenge? (I was sleeping through this whole episode at 4 a.m. in China)...was he out? Why didn't Ventura at the very least go out and try to break up the momentum of the Royals somehow at that point?

 

The other weird thing was that the game-winning hit by Eibner had been in play for three consecutive hits for the Royals before Eibner was the fourth one to get a hit.

 

Why didn't Kahnle throw it out or just feel that ball was "bad luck" and follow the typical baseball superstition/s when things are going against you?

[fathom]

Cain was safe and pretty obvious

[Blackout Friday]

I didn't get very far into this post. I stopped at Nate Jones being a one-pitch pitcher.

 

Nate Jones has an elite slider, when it's on. Elite.

[greg775]

I didn't get very far into this post. I stopped at Nate Jones being a one-pitch pitcher.

 

Nate Jones has an elite slider, when it's on. Elite.

Nate Jones is wild. Nothing about him is "elite" as he proved today. he needs a remake of his delivery.

[soxforlife05]

Nate Jones is wild. Nothing about him is "elite" as he proved today. he needs a remake of his delivery.

 

His motion reminds me of how some little league players are taught to throw the ball off the mound when they first start learning how to pitch

[caulfield12]

The problem is there's almost no deception in his delivery and once hitters can time his fastball and just watch sliders go by, knowing more are likely to end up as balls...eventually they'll time one.

[Lillian]

What is the solution? Who inside, or outside, of the organization could provide some "relief" to this beleaguered bullpen?

How does Shields represent any help?

 

Maybe the best solution is to have the starters pitch deeper into games, thereby limiting the use of the pen. If they can get to the 8TH, instead of the 7TH inning,

that would leave just 6 outs to be covered by the relievers. So, how might Shields help achieve that goal? In his first 10 starts, he has gone 7 innings 4 times, and 6 2/3 once. He gave the Padres 6 innings, in the other 5 starts. Is it realistic to expect that he might be able to go 7 innings, on at least half of his starts?

 

The other two questions are; Whom would he replace, Latos or Gonzales, and could either of those guys provide help to the bullpen?

[mataipaepae]

Id like to see more hard throwers in our bullpen. Too many lollipop guys.

[caulfield12]

They just got rid of Kahnle...he was the hardest thrower on the team.

 

Also tried Miguel Cleto.

 

Velocity doesn't mean anything unless you have two pitches you can throw for strikes. And the confidence to throw either one at any time in the count.

 

 

In many ways, Zach Putnam has been one of the most effective relievers in baseball the last 2+ years with relatively pedestrian stuff.

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

Id like to see more hard throwers in our bullpen. Too many lollipop guys.

 

In 2007 Kenny decided to rebuild the bullpen with guys who all threw 95+. How did that work out?

 

The issue was they fell behind regularly in counts and when they brought that 95+ straight fast ball, it usually went out at about 105+ MPH.

 

Speed without movement is a killer. Big league hitters will catch up to straight fastballs.

 

Mark

 

[kitekrazy]

In 2007 Kenny decided to rebuild the bullpen with guys who all threw 95+. How did that work out?

 

The issue was they fell behind regularly in counts and when they brought that 95+ straight fast ball, it usually went out at about 105+ MPH.

 

Speed without movement is a killer. Big league hitters will catch up to straight fastballs.

 

Mark

 

Exception - those wearing Sox uniforms.

 

[caulfield12]

Sisco, Masset, Aarsdma, MacDougal, etc.

[mataipaepae]

No s*** you two. Obviously you have to be able to more.

 

Who has the best bullpen right now? Yankees. Look at their back 3.

 

The Tigers had a nasty bullpen a couple years ago. Hard throwers.

 

Look at the royals. Big arms.