Robin Ventura sacrifice bunted with the 3 hitter in the 7th inning

[elrockinMT]

Runners on 1st and 2nd. No outs and close game-pitchers duel. Cabrera sac blunts and now two in scoring position. One out and your RBI man up. He couldn't deliver. Tgevplay was good. Now if it had worked we would saying how much of a genius Ventura was. Don't bunt and Cabrera grounded into a DP we would have heard how bad Ventura was because he didn't bunt. Bank on it

[caulfield12]

Using that rationale Ventura throws bovine under the bus, supported his players and takes responsibilty. I think he is a leader

 

 

So then do you believe he deserves an extension?

 

Some would theorize that removing his lame duck status would help the entire team to relax instead of answering questions focusing on their manager everyday this bad streak of baseball continues.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1972

 

Yea I was going to say weren't those early 70's teams with Melton, Dick Allen, Carlos May, Terry Forster, Goose Gossage, Bucky Dent, Wilbur Wood, Jim Kaat pretty competitive ?

[elrockinMT]

Historically based on what is happening on the field it's the worst period since 1968-1980.

 

Mark

 

 

1968 team started 0-10. They had traded Tommie Agee to the Mets for Tommy Davis. That was a bad trade and they moved Pete Ward to the OF. Disastrous results. All that after almost winning it all in1967

Edited May 31, 2016 by elrockinMT

[elrockinMT]

So then do you believe he deserves an extension?

 

Some would theorize that removing his lame duck status would help the entire team to relax instead of answering questions focusing on their manager everyday this bad streak of baseball continues.

 

It might help but I doubt vthey offer an extension during the season

[caulfield12]

Then they really don't believe in him 100% if they're waiting for him to "prove" something to them after 4+ years on the job.

 

You either trust in your manager or you don't by that time. Shouldn't be any in-between at this point.

[Lip Man 1]

Yeah, my first baseball card was Topps 1979 Claudell Washington, lol. First autograph, too. Sent it off in a SASE envelope and received it back the same week.

 

I vaguely remember hearing about the South Side Hitmen. First game was ironically enough at Wrigley (Cards/Cubs) that same year, but that was one of only two times in my life attending a Cubs' game in Chicago.

 

 

Just have a general idea about Chuck Tanner, Goose Gossage, Dick Allen, Forster, Wilbur Wood...some of the bigger names of that time.

 

Time to learn a little history... some of my interviews:

 

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/in...=11&id=3056

 

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/in...=11&id=1998

 

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/in...=11&id=2285

 

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/in...=11&id=3008

 

mark

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

According to the ESPN stats with runner(s) on Melky is hitting .325 .395 OBP .519 SLG. . 915 OPS

 

With runners in scoring position .283 .365 OBP .457 SLG. .822 OPS Tied w/ Frazier for team high in RBI w/19

Only 2 of Fraziers HR's have come with runners in scoring position and he's .163 .362 OBP (13 walks) .349 SLG. .711OPS

 

Abreu w/ a runner(s) in scoring position .228 .319 OBP .246 SLG ( that's not a typo) .564 OPS

 

Surprisingly Avi, Austin Jackson and Lawrie have the best OPS' in these situations. Avi highest at .959 OPS

 

Still seems to me a hitter is needed more than anything. Bullpen just regressed to the mean. When Petricka comes back it might straighten itself out. Starting pitching still pretty good overall. Always surprised to see so many reactionary comments like DFA Albers . The guy just had what , 30 straight scoreless appearances ? The bullpen just leveled out is all. Hopefully they get a little more consistent. Not as good as they were and not as bad as they have been.

 

But I'll agree on firing Robin. I've been on that train as long as Balta. Problem is Management would appear to be just as reactionary as the fans firing him during this slump. And for heavens sake can we just use Rollins against LH's . Saladino needs to play , keep the defense and pitching strong as possible . Slumps don't last as long when those 2 things are strong. Saladino's been surprisingly effective as a hitter which is gravy.

 

Batters were also hitting Harvey for a .509 batting average when facing him for the 3rd time in a game.

Edited May 31, 2016 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[harkness99]

Runners on 1st and 2nd. No outs and close game-pitchers duel. Cabrera sac blunts and now two in scoring position. One out and your RBI man up. He couldn't deliver. Tgevplay was good. Now if it had worked we would saying how much of a genius Ventura was. Don't bunt and Cabrera grounded into a DP we would have heard how bad Ventura was because he didn't bunt. Bank on it

 

 

If anyone (which I highly doubt) would have been asking for your 3 hitter to bunt .... usually your best of one of your best hitters. They would be smoking some good stuff.

 

That just never happens.... I think I've seen it twice in 10 years.

 

Do you really believe that?

[caulfield12]

Can't believe we've turned a 7 game lead over KC into a 2 game deficit.

 

Not even September of 2012 was this much of a collapse.

 

It was 13 and -1, it's about to be 2 and 6. We've lost 11 games to .500 and they've gained 7.

 

 

And Verlander's back to throwing darts...neither he or Chacin have given up a run in LA, tied 0-0 still.

Edited May 31, 2016 by caulfield12

[harkness99]

Can't believe we've turned a 7 game lead over KC into a 2 game deficit.

 

Not even September of 2012 was this much of a collapse.

 

It was 13 and -1, it's about to be 2 and 6. We've lost 11 games to .500 and they've gained 7.

 

 

And Verlander's back to throwing darts...neither he or Chacin have given up a run in LA, tied 0-0 still.

 

ehh really don't care what other teams are doing right now.

 

We can't even win a game so its pretty much a waste of time to even pay attention to the standings.

[greg775]

The bunt decision is infuriating. Even if we get one or two runs, think we could have held that? Possibly not considering how bad the pen has been.

 

Thing is Robin had a perfect chance to let Melky hit there. He could have told the second guessers the way we've been pitching lately it would behoove to go for the big inning there.

 

I'm ready to copy Earl Weaver and Sparky Anderson's stance. f*** the bunt. Never bunt. If you have that philosophy then you don't have to worry about "should I have this guy bunt or not?" You just ALWAYS swing away and there's nothing to even think about. With our team and its inability to hit and hit with men on base, it was absurd to bunt. Melky might have thrashed a single. Melky also might have hit into a DP. Who cares? The bunt has become a four-letter word even in the Ozzie era cause we screw it up so many times for one, and for two, we can't hit in the clutch so why bunt runners over?? Wake up Robin.

 

I'm sure players hate the bunt. Robin should think back to his 20 years as a player. There's a reason you hated you or your teammates being called on to bunt, Robin. It f***s up the inning.

[greg775]

Using that rationale Ventura throws no one under the bus, supported his players and takes responsibilty. I think he is a leader

You think that because you are the best fan in Sox history. I used to be like you, but I can't take it anymore.

 

Runners on 1st and 2nd. No outs and close game-pitchers duel. Cabrera sac blunts and now two in scoring position. One out and your RBI man up. He couldn't deliver. Tgevplay was good. Now if it had worked we would saying how much of a genius Ventura was. Don't bunt and Cabrera grounded into a DP we would have heard how bad Ventura was because he didn't bunt. Bank on it

Maybe, but it made more sense not to bunt cause of the fact the team can't hit in the clutch and everybody knows it. Giving up one out just to move the runners is kind of insane.

 

1968 team started 0-10. They had traded Tommie Agee to the Mets for Tommy Davis. That was a bad trade and they moved Pete Ward to the OF. Disastrous results. All that after almost winning it all in1967

Gary Peters forever! Is Pete Ward living? What does he do for a living? Amazing how those guys that played in that era had to get careers after baseball cause they didn't make enough $$$. I am assuming they get a nice pension now though.

[caulfield12]

It was all Ventura's decision...not done on his own.

 

 

http://nypost.com/2016/05/30/this-is-why-m...th-matt-harvey/

NY papers thanking Ventura for "doing a solid" for his former team by bunting with Cabrera. Lovely.

[klaus kinski]

Maybe you bunt with right handed hitter up, not with your best left handed hitter there

[Thad Bosley]

Historically based on what is happening on the field it's the worst period since 1968-1980.

 

Mark

Meaning we are in the worst stretch of Jerry Reinsdorf's already excessively underperforming tenure as owner.

[whitesoxjr27]

Listen up, people: Blame White Sox players before you blame the manager

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosen...531-column.html

[whitesoxjr27]

Decent decisions, dumb decisions: All blowing up in Robin Ventura's face

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colum...531-column.html

[Lip Man 1]

Out of all the columns today the paragraph that got my attention was in David Haugh's piece where basically he said that Ventura should be fired and explains why but then concludes by saying the issue is that with Jerry Reinsdorf he rarely sees the obvious:

 

Here is the paragraph though that pretty well expresses my feelings:

 

"The Sox have no identity under Ventura. He has proved nothing as a manager in four-plus seasons, beyond the fact he's likable. He has done nothing to instill confidence that things will improve quickly. If Ventura stays, this looks like more than a "rough patch,'' as Sale called it. Barring something dramatic, this feels like the beginning of the end."

 

Well said.

 

Mark

Edited May 31, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[southsider2k5]

Out of curiosity can someone actually spell out the numbers for me? Are there better of odds of getting multiple hits, or an extra base hit starting when no one is out to get the two runs home (playing for the win on the road), or one base hit driving in two runs with runners on 2nd and 3rd and starting with one out? What do the actual statistics look like here?

[Lip Man 1]

You think that because you are the best fan in Sox history. I used to be like you, but I can't take it anymore.

 

 

Maybe, but it made more sense not to bunt cause of the fact the team can't hit in the clutch and everybody knows it. Giving up one out just to move the runners is kind of insane.

 

 

Gary Peters forever! Is Pete Ward living? What does he do for a living? Amazing how those guys that played in that era had to get careers after baseball cause they didn't make enough $$$. I am assuming they get a nice pension now though.

 

Pete is alive and well and living in a suburb of Portland. Visit him every year when Idaho State plays there. Have been to his house and seen the memorabilia he has of his career including his Sox jersey.

 

Very nice guy. Owned a travel agency for almost 40 years before selling it and retiring.

 

Mark

 

[COACH612]

Out of curiosity can someone actually spell out the numbers for me? Are there better of odds of getting multiple hits, or an extra base hit starting when no one is out to get the two runs home (playing for the win on the road), or one base hit driving in two runs with runners on 2nd and 3rd and starting with one out? What do the actual statistics look like here?

 

 

You are asking for numbers but much more goes into it. Who is hitting, how has he been hitting, who is on deck and in the hole, etc.

It's more of this than a numbers game.

[COACH612]

Using that rationale Ventura throws no one under the bus, supported his players and takes responsibilty. I think he is a leader

 

I hope you are kidding when you said this.

[southsider2k5]

You are asking for numbers but much more goes into it. Who is hitting, how has he been hitting, who is on deck and in the hole, etc.

It's more of this than a numbers game.

 

It is absolutely a numbers game. The attempt is to take the action that gives you the best chance of succeeding. More than just FireRobin, I am curious what the actual numbers have to say about this specific situation.

[chitownsportsfan]

Out of curiosity can someone actually spell out the numbers for me? Are there better of odds of getting multiple hits, or an extra base hit starting when no one is out to get the two runs home (playing for the win on the road), or one base hit driving in two runs with runners on 2nd and 3rd and starting with one out? What do the actual statistics look like here?

 

it's not hard just look at the WPA graph:

 

Went down basically 1% after the SUCCESSFUL bunt. Given that Melky is better than your average hitter the actual impact was probably higher than the generic win expectancy chart.

 

It was an awful decision. Things like this add up.