Improving the team from within

[ron883]

IMO, there are two moves that can help the team without trading.

 

1. Call up Coats and dfa Sands. Put Costs in LF and DH Melky. Send avi down to AAA. If Jackson is gone for a bit, just put Eaton back in CF and coats in RF. Coats is a plus defender in the corners, and is pillaging AAA.

2. Fire Robin. Promote Renteria. Simple but won't happen.

 

 

What moves do you think would help that wouldn't involve a trade?

[Chicago White Sox]

Replacing Sands is the obvious move. He serves no real purpose on this team. While Coats' numbers are definitely being inflated by a high BABIP (.390), his splits are very promising (good home & away, good vs LHP & RHP). Plus his defensive ability in the corners would be a huge plus off the bench. He's a much more complete player (even if he lacks that one plus skill) and fits our needs off the bench much better than what Sands can provide. This move is a no brainer IMO.

[pettie4sox]

Here's the thing though, does Coats have an opportunity to be an everyday player if he keeps developing or is his ceiling pretty much a 4th outfielder?

[Hatchetman]

Coats' BABIP is .390 this year. Think that's going to hold up?

[NorthSideSox72]

Here's the thing though, does Coats have an opportunity to be an everyday player if he keeps developing or is his ceiling pretty much a 4th outfielder?

 

I'm a little higher on Coats than some. I think he's a better 4OF option right now than either Sands or Shuck, and his ceiling is a lower division starting corner OF. I'd give him a shot right now.

 

Coats' BABIP is .390 this year. Think that's going to hold up?

 

No, but also remember a few things. One, minor league BABIP's will always be a little higher than typical MLB ones. They are also generally less trustworthy.

 

[caulfield12]

Is there any scout or talent evaluator recently on the record projecting Coats to now POTENTIALLY be a big league regular?

 

Callis, BP, Fan Graphs, etc.?

 

Just curious...if there's something he is doing different, adjustments, mechanical....psychologist, etc., that accounts for his greater level of success this year?

 

Next, it means Hahn has to come to terms with the Avi Garcia trade not being as successful as originally thought...although it gave us Montas, who was a key part of the Frazier acquisition.

 

Same thing with Hayes, whose numbers aren't quite as eye-popping as Coats'. AAAA player or hidden gem everyone overlooked?

 

 

If you asked 10 scouts to say who would have the best career WAR of the 3, wouldn't many of them choose a 3rd option in Delmonico based on his original pedigree compared to Coats/Hayes?

Edited June 2, 2016 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

Is there any scout or talent evaluator recently on the record projecting Coats to now POTENTIALLY be a big league regular?

 

Callis, BP, Fan Graphs, etc.?

 

Just curious...if there's something he is doing different, adjustments, mechanical....psychologist, etc., that accounts for his greater level of success this year?

 

Next, it means Hahn has to come to terms with the Avi Garcia trade not being as successful as originally thought...although it gave us Montas, who was a key part of the Frazier acquisition.

 

Same thing with Hayes, whose numbers aren't quite as eye-popping as Coats'. AAAA player or hidden gem everyone overlooked?

 

 

If you asked 10 scouts to say who would have the best career WAR of the 3, wouldn't many of them choose a 3rd option in Delmonico based on his original pedigree compared to Coats/Hayes?

 

I could go on about this, on both Hayes and Coats. But a few things to keep in mind...

 

1. Callis, for example, has had Coats ranked in the team's top prospects for a while now. And I just saw a report on BP saying he has MLB potential. Though neither have pegged him as a regular.

 

2. Each player has been overlooked for some specific and clear reasons. And they are the kind of reasons where national writers like you are talking about will tend to just not even give them eyeball time. That's the nature of their jobs - they can't look deep at 50 prospects on each team, as it's just not practical. So, they tend to miss a few guys. It happens, and they'll tell you that.

 

3. I haven't seen anyone call Hayes a starter, including myself, though I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea. As for Coats, it may be I'm alone on that island, haha.

 

4. The numbers aren't as crazy for either one as you might think, if you take more context into account than simply full year stats. For example, Hayes skipped A+ to go to AA - which made the already-largest jump in the minors a huge chasm. He had a horrible first month, predictably, but look how he progressed after. And keep in mind the ballpark he was in. For Coats, he basically skipped AA - and still hit pretty darn well in AAA last year anyway. Context is key.

 

5. Hayes actually did make a mechanical change early this year, we wrote about it.

 

[Buehrle>Wood]

He's 26. It's sink or swim time for him, probably even past that timeframe for most. Its not like he has to play everyday. Hes not exactly one who needs to be protected. I hope the move happens today.

[caulfield12]

There's one compelling argument for Coats and even Hayes.

 

It's if that you do survive and gauntlet of aggressive promotion through our system, you'll be rewarded with an opportunity.

 

We saw that happen with the prolifically slugging 1B that most scouts had pegged as a AAAA player and the fans were clamoring for him to play in Chicago for some time...that one went to the scouts.

 

The organization's to the point where they need at least one of Saladino and Anderson to be regular players, hopefully both if Tyler's bat can hold up over time. Sands might be the "veteran journeyman" like Shuck that Ventura feels more comfortable with, however. At some point, they need to try something else (DH-wise), and that's probably going to come before the July 4th holidays when the trade market starts to really take form.

 

And, if nothing else, those players like a Kahnle get a sense of the increased pace and skill level of the game at the highest level, and can use their successes and more often failures as motivation to get back there. Same with Purke if he loses out in the numbers game.

Edited June 2, 2016 by caulfield12

[BamaDoc]

There's one compelling argument for Coats and even Hayes.

 

It's if that you do survive and gauntlet of aggressive promotion through our system, you'll be rewarded with an opportunity.

 

We saw that happen with the prolifically slugging 1B that most scouts had pegged as a AAAA player and the fans were clamoring for him to play in Chicago for some time...that one went to the scouts.

 

The organization's to the point where they need at least one of Saladino and Anderson to be regular players, hopefully both if Tyler's bat can hold up over time. Sands might be the "veteran journeyman" like Shuck that Ventura feels more comfortable with, however. At some point, they need to try something else (DH-wise), and that's probably going to come before the July 4th holidays when the trade market starts to really take form.

 

And, if nothing else, those players like a Kahnle get a sense of the increased pace and skill level of the game at the highest level, and can use their successes and more often failures as motivation to get back there. Same with Purke if he loses out in the numbers game.

 

 

I think there is a second very compelling argument for both players. You already have them and they cost you nothing in terms of prospects or cash. It depends on our organizations evaluation of them I guess. I hope the front office is not like many fans who see that bright green player/prospect on another team over our own. Sometimes that green on the other side of the fence is just weeds.

[oldsox]

If Coats' name were Courtney Hawkins, he would have been called up.

[southsider2k5]

If Coats' name were Courtney Hawkins, he would have been called up.

 

Just like Tim Anderson was called up because of his name...

[Dick Allen]

If Coats' name were Courtney Hawkins, he would have been called up.

Maybe, but I don't think there is some sort of conspiracy. If Sands head was totally in it, if he played at Charlotte, chances are he would put up huge numbers. The question with Coats is can he do damage against major league pitching, and can he do damage playing part time against major league pitching. If the Sox had the Twins record, we would probably have started to find out.

 

A lot of players have lit it up for the Knights and fizzled if called up.

 

IMO, there is nothing more the Sox would like than to call up one of their own and have them be successful with the bat. It's been far too long. I don't think the round when they were picked really matters, at least consciously.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Dick Allen

[oldsox]

Just like Tim Anderson was called up because of his name...

Nope. Totally different situation, and you know it.

 

First of all, they can bring up Anderson anytime as far as I'm concerned. DFA Rollins, or whatever. That is a stand alone decision. That has nothing to do with Coats, and you know it.

 

All I said, or implied, was that if Hawkins had Coats' numbers, he would be called up amid great fanfare. But it is Coats who has the big numbers, and he was a low round draft choice, so he stays at AAA.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Nope. Totally different situation, and you know it.

 

First of all, they can bring up Anderson anytime as far as I'm concerned. DFA Rollins, or whatever. That is a stand alone decision. That has nothing to do with Coats, and you know it.

 

All I said, or implied, was that if Hawkins had Coats' numbers, he would be called up amid great fanfare. But it is Coats who has the big numbers, and he was a low round draft choice, so he stays at AAA.

 

It isn't really different at all. Anderson is a former top draft pick putting up big numbers. The implication was that this would be enough to get Hawkins called up, but it hasn't been enough to get Anderson called up. You are implying something that hasn't really happened in reality.

[oldsox]

No, you continue making an invalid comparison. My original post never mentioned Anderson. He has nothing to do with that post. Leave him out of it.

 

I said that Coats, a low round draft pick who is in his 4th year of pro ball, has put up big numbers (in AAA). I think he should be called up. He is an outfielder who can play multiple positions.

 

Hawkins, a # 1 pick who is in his 5th year of pro ball, has put up mediocre numbers. All I said was that if the situation were reversed, that is, if Hawkins had the big numbers, he would have been called up.

[Dick Allen]

I understand how people would think Coats is a better fit than Sands, and he may be. But it isn't obvious. .366/.411/.522, Avi Garcia's splits in AAA. It hasn't translated to a lot of success. And he did this as a 22-23 year old.

[southsider2k5]

No, you continue making an invalid comparison. My original post never mentioned Anderson. He has nothing to do with that post. Leave him out of it.

 

I said that Coats, a low round draft pick who is in his 4th year of pro ball, has put up big numbers (in AAA). I think he should be called up. He is an outfielder who can play multiple positions.

 

Hawkins, a # 1 pick who is in his 5th year of pro ball, has put up mediocre numbers. All I said was that if the situation were reversed, that is, if Hawkins had the big numbers, he would have been called up.

 

lol, ok. Except that the White Sox are in the exact situation you just described with Anderson, and he is still at AAA. That is my point. You might think what you are saying is true, but it hasn't born out in reality.

[NorthSideSox72]

Nope. Totally different situation, and you know it.

 

First of all, they can bring up Anderson anytime as far as I'm concerned. DFA Rollins, or whatever. That is a stand alone decision. That has nothing to do with Coats, and you know it.

 

All I said, or implied, was that if Hawkins had Coats' numbers, he would be called up amid great fanfare. But it is Coats who has the big numbers, and he was a low round draft choice, so he stays at AAA.

 

I really don't think draft round is a consideration at this point with either one. By the way, Coats isn't your typical 29th round pick. He was once drafted in the 11th, and was then slotted to the Rounds 5-8 range until he blew out his knee. So the Sox scooped him up and did a late signing. He's a real talent, just had to start behind the pack a bit.

 

If what you're saying is true - and I don't think it is - it is because of Hawkins' loud tools in power and arm strength, and therefore ceiling potential. It's not about draft round.

 

Anyway it's a moot point. Hawkins isn't even in the 2017 discussion right now, let alone 2016. Coats on the other hand has essentially proven everything he can in the minors, so it's a question of if the team's evaluators think he's ready, versus what they think Sands can continue to do (or not do). My personal view is now, and has been, that Coats is a better option than not only Sands, but also Shuck, today. The Sox appear to feel otherwise, though that could change any day now.

 

[ptatc]

IMO, there are two moves that can help the team without trading.

 

1. Call up Coats and dfa Sands. Put Costs in LF and DH Melky. Send avi down to AAA. If Jackson is gone for a bit, just put Eaton back in CF and coats in RF. Coats is a plus defender in the corners, and is pillaging AAA.

2. Fire Robin. Promote Renteria. Simple but won't happen.

 

 

What moves do you think would help that wouldn't involve a trade?

Serious question. Can Garcia be sent down? Isn't there a rule where once they've been in the MLB for a certain length of time, they can't be sent down without them agreeing to it.?

[GreenSox]

I understand how people would think Coats is a better fit than Sands, and he may be. But it isn't obvious. .366/.411/.522, Avi Garcia's splits in AAA. It hasn't translated to a lot of success. And he did this as a 22-23 year old.

Nothing to lose by giving it a try.

[Jerksticks]

Nothing to lose by giving it a try.

I agree. I think he has a good shot at success because he's more of a lying-in-the-weeds guy than a vaunted-prospect guy. Just has the potential for a good story and a good ahot in the arm for the team. His hands are lightning quick.

[Chicago White Sox]

I understand how people would think Coats is a better fit than Sands, and he may be. But it isn't obvious. .366/.411/.522, Avi Garcia's splits in AAA. It hasn't translated to a lot of success. And he did this as a 22-23 year old.

Well sure, if you completely ignore defense. Coats can actually play a position and do so well, which is important for a bench player. Sands' entire value comes down to his ability to hit LHP and quite frankly there aren't enough opportunities based on our roster construction to make him a useful player. There is really no argument to make here, even if you assume Coats' offensive production drops off significantly (which is likely will).

Edited June 3, 2016 by Chicago White Sox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This is a great assessment here.

 

To add to your point, Coats is 26. What are we waiting for? He's not the type of prospect where we have to worry about his development path. If they're going to get a bat, why not see what you have in Coats in first or Hayes for that matter. Hayes is going to be 26 in September and there will never be a time where he is on the roster and we are more in need for a LH bat.

 

The loss here is the struggling and entirely redundant Sands. Move on. See what you have. Needs to happen.

 

I agree. Their ages and their abilities fall right in line with the Sox needs. The trade deadline is fast approaching and wouldn't it be great if we could actually get help from the minors and forego the need to make trades that further deplete the minors ? The reluctance to bring up new position players and cling to the ones they have is truly baffling.

[Vance Law]

Nope. Totally different situation, and you know it.

 

First of all, they can bring up Anderson anytime as far as I'm concerned. DFA Rollins, or whatever. That is a stand alone decision. That has nothing to do with Coats, and you know it.

 

All I said, or implied, was that if Hawkins had Coats' numbers, he would be called up amid great fanfare. But it is Coats who has the big numbers, and he was a low round draft choice, so he stays at AAA.

If you don't like what Sands is offering after putting up a .948 OPS in AAA last year, how well do you think Anderson's .731 is going to translate in the majors right now? Add in the fact that he's well worse defensively than Saladino.