Robin Ventura should be fired today

[ptatc]

I really don't feel like the problem is Hahn. I think the problem is that JR has brought in a new group of decision makers like Hahn and Hostetler and kept the old guard around Williams, Lauman, and Bell, which just leads to having too many cooks in the kitchen and and a hybrid philosophy to running an organization that doesn't really excel at anything. The problem probably isn't RV, but there are not a lot of other moves to be made to get the ship righted at this point.

 

I am so ready for JR to move on from this team. He has mentioned that he wants his family to get out of baseball so I wish he would just hurry up and do it.

could be partially true. although, KW and Hahn worked together for years before so you would think they worked well together as they both had chances to leave the situation but didn't. Also, JR didn't bring Hostetler, KW and Han did, so again you would think that they would work together. I think this past draft has signified a new direction for the group. The recent past way wasn't working so they decided to change it.

 

thisd is some of what I don't get about the KW issues people have he has shown the ability to change his thought process when something isn't working. He tried the safe college picks, didn't get results. Changed to high upside picks to find a superstar, didn't work. Brought in Hahn to lead more, didn't work. So now they've brought in Hostetler to change it up. He needed to let each step take a few years to see if it would work or not. He really has shown the ability of a good executive.

 

now the point can be made that they want to go in a new direction and change leadership because all all of them are hired to be fired.

[kitekrazy]

Who comes up with this s***? lol. Come on. Ozzie will come back and manage the Sox before AJ does.

 

It's not hard to do since the pattern in the organization is to use former players. Then the assumption is since the Sox last boneheaded move was to pick someone who decided not to be involved any longer in professional baseball.

Edited June 13, 2016 by kitekrazy

[FT35]

The argument about the players not getting it done is valid when thinking about whether Robin is to blame. They need to play better...got it. But what IS on Robin's plate is playing a large part in establishing a winning culture within the organization--developing the mindset of the team, the mental approach to the daily grind, the player's psyche, creating a culture of winning. Look at the organizations that have had that no matter what players are on the field...St. Louis, San Francisco, Texas, usually the Yankees and Red Sox--minus the occasional outliner year. These franchises have winning cultures. The players change, but the results usually produce a winning season. The White Sox have had that...they were one of the top win% teams in the 90's and have had many solid years since, but the winning culture has dissolved into a survival culture--a "what else could go wrong" culture.

 

Whether Robin is solely responsible for taking them there is debatable...whether he's a great baseball guy is not the question...I'm sure he is--we all loved him when he played here...but the fact is, the culture has dissolved into what it is under his leadership and it needs to change. No matter how much talent is put around him, he's not able to tap into players' full potential and ability. Out of the 4 years he's been here...there have only been short periods of time where everyone was pulling on the same end of the rope. The result was the ability to win. However, MOST of the time, we see too much of the hitting being on one day and off another...usually negatively corresponding with the days the pitching is on or off...it's all the evidence of a group of players who are responding as individuals and not as a cohesive unit--TEAM. When this happens in all other sports, the manager is the first to be held accountable--especially after a 4 year sample size of the same thing and a fan base who is beyond frustrated with it all.

 

I hate to bring up the Cubs when talking about the Sox because they are so different. But just look at Joe Maddon--he has that team believing that they will win every day. On the days they don't, he has them believing they will win the next game. He's been a good manager wherever he's been. Look at the Sox and Cubs rosters on paper and you will see many similarities. Power hitting 1st baseman, solid 2nd baseman with some versatility, young talented SS prospect, power hitting 3rd baseman, a couple decent offensive/defensive OFers, 2 experienced catchers, an off the charts Ace, a VERY solid #2 starter, a veteran (past their prime, but still serviceable) #3 starter, a young, unproven #4 with upside, and a serviceable #5, both have decent bullpens and a good closer. How are there VAST differences between the 2 teams in the win column? One has a manager who has helped establish a winning culture, one does not. I would LOVE to see what someone credible could do with this team before they blew it up and started over.

Edited June 13, 2016 by FT35

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Good. Complacency admits incompetence to the fanbase.

 

It makes me really unsure about what to root for in this series. The Sox to win, or to finally cut ties with Robin? Ugh, can't decide.

[SCCWS]

Every team has a flawed roster, well 30 or so do. It's up to the manager to maximize the good and minimize the flaws over the course of a long season. Which means flaws play sometimes.

 

Yes, but the question is how flawed. Most fans thought this team was a .500 to plus 4-5 team. Not a playoff team. They entered the season w questions about 2 of the 5 starters. In addition SS, 2B, catcher and RF were all questionable as well. The bullpen looked solid. Flaws do play but too many means they don't play postseason.

 

The GM( Hahn/Williams) constructed a mediocre team and Robin has kept it mediocre.

[flavum]

It makes me really unsure about what to root for in this series. The Sox to win, or to finally cut ties with Robin? Ugh, can't decide.

 

Right now, I'm hoping they win three games with three quality starts and scoring 20 runs.

 

If they lose tonight, I'll be hoping they lose Tuesday so Sale isn't pitching for Ventura's job on Wednesday.

[soxfan49]

The argument about the players not getting it done is valid when thinking about whether Robin is to blame. They need to play better...got it. But what IS on Robin's plate is playing a large part in establishing a winning culture within the organization--developing the mindset of the team, the mental approach to the daily grind, the player's psyche, creating a culture of winning. Look at the organizations that have had that no matter what players are on the field...St. Louis, San Francisco, Texas, usually the Yankees and Red Sox--minus the occasional outliner year. These franchises have winning cultures. The players change, but the results usually produce a winning season. The White Sox have had that...they were one of the top win% teams in the 90's and have had many solid years since, but the winning culture has dissolved into a survival culture--a "what else could go wrong" culture.

 

Whether Robin is solely responsible for taking them there is debatable...whether he's a great baseball guy is not the question...I'm sure he is--we all loved him when he played here...but the fact is, the culture has dissolved into what it is under his leadership and it needs to change. No matter how much talent is put around him, he's not able to tap into players' full potential and ability. Out of the 4 years he's been here...there have only been short periods of time where everyone was pulling on the same end of the rope. The result was the ability to win. However, MOST of the time, we see too much of the hitting being on one day and off another...usually negatively corresponding with the days the pitching is on or off...it's all the evidence of a group of players who are responding as individuals and not as a cohesive unit--TEAM. When this happens in all other sports, the manager is the first to be held accountable--especially after a 4 year sample size of the same thing and a fan base who is beyond frustrated with it all.

 

I hate to bring up the Cubs when talking about the Sox because they are so different. But just look at Joe Maddon--he has that team believing that they will win every day. On the days they don't, he has them believing they will win the next game. He's been a good manager wherever he's been. Look at the Sox and Cubs rosters on paper and you will see many similarities. Power hitting 1st baseman, solid 2nd baseman with some versatility, young talented SS prospect, power hitting 3rd baseman, a couple decent offensive/defensive OFers, 2 experienced catchers, an off the charts Ace, a VERY solid #2 starter, a veteran (past their prime, but still serviceable) #3 starter, a young, unproven #4 with upside, and a serviceable #5, both have decent bullpens and a good closer. How are there VAST differences between the 2 teams in the win column? One has a manager who has helped establish a winning culture, one does not. I would LOVE to see what someone credible could do with this team before they blew it up and started over.

The Sox have a power hitting 1B, a solid 2B, a serviceable #3? Hmm. I must be watching another team this year.

 

There are vast differences. Arrieta's better than Sale, and Bryant and Rizzo for Abreu and Frazier (despite ages) is a trade that would never happen because the Cubs would laugh at the Sox.

[Baron]

Scott Merkin thinks they need to do something in these next 2 series...I dont know if they are going to get that much time.

 

At some point they have to stop saying "We're good" and actually show that.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Baron

[greg775]

The Sox record since being 23-10 is ridiculously bad, almost historically bad if we continue that pace the rest of the season. Robin should be fired, case closed.

The team's performance this year and last. The team's performance in the Central Division games. Just get rid of him. NOW. Please? It's obvious he deserves the boot as much as Rollins did and Albers did and Humber did. And Latos did. It's time!

[Bigsoxhurt35]

It makes me really unsure about what to root for in this series. The Sox to win, or to finally cut ties with Robin? Ugh, can't decide.

I'm rooting for his firing. I know this team deep down just isn't very good, but they could take a page out of my Pens playbook (fire coach midseason and made some trades). This team is a few tweaks from being good. Personally, I'd sell anyone and everyone and stock up on young talent. Free agency sucks this offseason anyways so there's no upgrades unless you dumpster dive which this team can't do. So, keep losing boys because I want Robin's incompetent ass out the door.

[Lip Man 1]

Funny, since Himes was the best GM he ever had and the only one who gave a deuce about developing the minor league system.

 

In my opinion Roland was the best GM JR ever had but your point about the minor league system is valid. Of course having four top picks in a row didn't hurt. And by top picks I mean in the top 10.

 

Mark

 

[Dick Allen]

In my opinion Roland was the best GM JR ever had but your point about the minor league system is valid. Of course having four top picks in a row didn't hurt. And by top picks I mean in the top 10.

 

Mark

Roland got the axe because the minor league system was embarrassing. The guys they were calling up in 1985 were not major leaguers in any way. Roland's a nice guy, but if you use the same criteria on him you use on everyone else, his being fired was deserved.

 

Kurt Brown over Barry Bonds with the 5th overall pick in the 1985 draft? Oops. Some of Roland's top 10 picks, Baines, nice, Daryl Boston at 7, Cecil Espy at 8, Steve Trout at 8, Steve Bueschele a decent player at 9, but didn't sign. Why would you draft a HS player at 9 who isn't going to sign?

Edited June 13, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Lip Man 1]

The argument about the players not getting it done is valid when thinking about whether Robin is to blame. They need to play better...got it. But what IS on Robin's plate is playing a large part in establishing a winning culture within the organization--developing the mindset of the team, the mental approach to the daily grind, the player's psyche, creating a culture of winning. Look at the organizations that have had that no matter what players are on the field...St. Louis, San Francisco, Texas, usually the Yankees and Red Sox--minus the occasional outliner year. These franchises have winning cultures. The players change, but the results usually produce a winning season. The White Sox have had that...they were one of the top win% teams in the 90's and have had many solid years since, but the winning culture has dissolved into a survival culture--a "what else could go wrong" culture.

 

Whether Robin is solely responsible for taking them there is debatable...whether he's a great baseball guy is not the question...I'm sure he is--we all loved him when he played here...but the fact is, the culture has dissolved into what it is under his leadership and it needs to change. No matter how much talent is put around him, he's not able to tap into players' full potential and ability. Out of the 4 years he's been here...there have only been short periods of time where everyone was pulling on the same end of the rope. The result was the ability to win. However, MOST of the time, we see too much of the hitting being on one day and off another...usually negatively corresponding with the days the pitching is on or off...it's all the evidence of a group of players who are responding as individuals and not as a cohesive unit--TEAM. When this happens in all other sports, the manager is the first to be held accountable--especially after a 4 year sample size of the same thing and a fan base who is beyond frustrated with it all.

 

This part I agree with completely. Well thought out post.

 

Mark

 

[ChiSox59]

I really can't see the Sox firing Robin, but I hope that they do. I don't think managers make much of a difference, but it is obvious this team needs a jolt.

[Baron]

Heyman on 670 the Score thinks the clock is ticking on Robin. This week is important.

[Big Hurtin]

Just a hunch, but if the Sox lose this series, I expect that to be it for RV.

What kind of house do you have?

[Lip Man 1]

Roland got the axe because the minor league system was embarrassing. The guys they were calling up in 1985 were not major leaguers in any way. Roland's a nice guy, but if you use the same criteria on him you use on everyone else, his being fired was deserved.

 

Kurt Brown over Barry Bonds with the 5th overall pick in the 1985 draft? Oops. Some of Roland's top 10 picks, Baines, nice, Daryl Boston at 7, Cecil Espy at 8, Steve Trout at 8, Steve Bueschele a decent player at 9, but didn't sign. Why would you draft a HS player at 9 who isn't going to sign?

 

I do not want to hijack this thread but I simply can't let this pass.

 

It's really hard for any GM to build a good minor league system when the operating 'philosophy' runs counter to that. Eddie Einhorn expressed that philosophy early on in the new ownerships tenure:

 

(Paraphrasing) 'The way to win in baseball is with trades and free agent signings.' Many claim that philosophy still exists today. And there's a reason why JR fought for so many years to get a slot system in the draft. He's also publicly stated he does not like to pay unproven, untested players top dollar. From a business sense I understand that and would probably agree with it...but baseball wasn't run that way for better or worse. Instead of adapting, he continued to swim upstream against it. Which as owner was his right. But the Sox paid the price for it.

 

If the Brown / Bonds situation is brought up, how about the Mike Trout one? The draft is not an exact science. every GM today, every GM in the past has blown picks.

 

When ownership isn't interested in a solid minor league system, when ownership won't allocate resources to it (for example Mark Gonzales when he was the Sox beat writer posted a story stating that in terms of money spent on minor league talent the Sox were dead last in major league baseball for a five year period. I think it was something like 2007-2011) it's hard for any GM to work miracles.

 

And that's not even counting the caliber of the minor league coaches, managers and instructors.

 

Mark

Edited June 13, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[Dick Allen]

I do not want to hijack this thread but I simply can't let this pass.

 

It's really hard for any GM to build a good minor league system when the operating 'philosophy' runs counter to that. Eddie Einhorn expressed that philosophy early on in the new ownerships tenure:

 

(Paraphrasing) 'The way to win in baseball is with trades and free agent signings.' Many claim that philosophy still exists today. And there's a reason why JR fought for so many years to get a slot system in the draft. He's also publicly stated he does not like to pay unproven, untested players top dollar. From a business sense I understand that and would probably agree with it...but baseball wasn't run that way for better or worse. Instead of adapting, he continued to swim upstream against it. Which as owner was his right. But the Sox paid the price for it.

 

If the Brown / Bonds situation is brought up, how about the Mike Trout one? The draft is not an exact science. every GM today, every GM in the past has blown picks.

 

When ownership isn't interested in a solid minor league system, when ownership won't allocate resources to it (for example Mark Gonzales when he was the Sox beat writer posted a story stating that in terms of money spent on minor league talent the Sox were dead last in major league baseball for a five year period. I think it was something like 2007-2011) it's hard for any GM to work miracles.

 

And that's not even counting the caliber of the minor league coaches, managers and instructors.

 

Mark

Yet Larry Himes was able to get it done under the same ownership, and you threw a "well he had top 10 picks" in there. So did Roland and he failed miserably.

 

Don't downplay Larry Himes, and then come up with excuses for Roland.

 

One difference between the Mike Trout one was a lot more teams passed on Trout. Bonds was the next pick after Brown. Don't tell me you wouldn't be holding that against KW ever.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Dick Allen

[FT35]

The Sox have a power hitting 1B, a solid 2B, a serviceable #3? Hmm. I must be watching another team this year.

 

There are vast differences. Arrieta's better than Sale, and Bryant and Rizzo for Abreu and Frazier (despite ages) is a trade that would never happen because the Cubs would laugh at the Sox.

 

 

Yes you must be watching a different team. The White Sox have a power hitting first baseman (Abreu has hit 66 HRs in 2014-15 (2nd only to Chris Davis in HRs by a 1st baseman in all of baseball since he's been in the league, Rizzo has hit 63 over that same time--I'd qualify that as comparable power numbers--and if you call Abreu a non-power hitting 1st baseman you have to call Rizzo and well...everyone else besides Chris Davis a non-power hitting 1st baseman), a solid 2nd baseman (Lawrie's WAR last season was 1.9...Zobrist's was 1.9...again...that is somewhat comparable to what the Cubs are running out) and despite a couple recent starts, a serviceable #3 starter over his entire career despite the decline (Last 5 years average WAR- Lackey 1.78. -Shields 3.22--there's an edge there considering Lackey had a 5.6 WAR last year that kept him from being a 0 WAR player over this stretch). Also Sale has been dominant since he came into the league in 2010, Jake Arrieta has been dominant for 2 years despite very little success in Baltimore. So I wouldn't say the differences are too vast there. No one suggested a a Rizzo and Bryant for Abreu and Frazier trade--age and player controlability alone would not make this deal possible. I'm simply saying that the skill sets are comparable from position to position.

 

You simply solidified the main point of my post. On paper, the White Sox should get MUCH better results on the field than they do, when you look at what these guys are actually doing, they DO look like another team--but the skill and the numbers are there. The biggest difference is the culture of the 2 teams.

[Kyyle23]

Roland got the axe because the minor league system was embarrassing. The guys they were calling up in 1985 were not major leaguers in any way. Roland's a nice guy, but if you use the same criteria on him you use on everyone else, his being fired was deserved.

 

Kurt Brown over Barry Bonds with the 5th overall pick in the 1985 draft? Oops. Some of Roland's top 10 picks, Baines, nice, Daryl Boston at 7, Cecil Espy at 8, Steve Trout at 8, Steve Bueschele a decent player at 9, but didn't sign. Why would you draft a HS player at 9 who isn't going to sign?

 

You look at the top 6 picks in that draft, and Kurt Brown is the only one you would say "Who?".

 

1 B.J. Surhoff Milwaukee Brewers

2 Will Clark San Francisco Giants

3 Bobby Witt Texas Rangers

4 Barry Larkin Cincinnati Reds

5 Kurt Brown Chicago White Sox

6 Barry Bonds Pittsburgh Pirates

[he gone.]

Do you believe that Robin can take us to a World Series in the next 3 years? If not, cut bait.

I think 99 of 100 Sox fans would agree that he's not taking us anywhere. Let's not be sitting at 44-56 after 100 games and fire him. BE proactive.

 

[Southwest Sider]

I would love to be proven wrong, but the Sox just continue to embarrass themselves against divisional opponents and I don't really see that changing aside from the few series the Sox will eventually win. It's been said before and bears repeating: This is not an organization with a winning culture. As much as I'd love to see the Sox right the ship here and win the division or make it to the playoffs, I think that most of us are thinking that Robin and his management team are going to be unable to get this team ready to defeat the Tigers, Indians and Royals. If you can't beat them, you can't make it to the playoffs barring some insane luck.

 

A good team in a tricky slump would have found a way to put their foot down and gone .500 in all the recent games against divisional rivals. Why? Because they are the guys you want to beat. Instead, the Sox have let this slump turn into a death spiral with seemingly no end in sight. I fully believe the team will get hot again, possibly go on another tear and get themselves back into the divisional race, but there is one common denominator that we all dread that has been a theme of the White Sox of recent times: That they will find ways to lose against their main competition. Momentum may or may not be a real thing in sports, but confidence is, and I believe the Sox have given the Indians, Tigers, and Royals all the confidence they will ever need against them. When you couple that with an apparent lack of confidence from the Sox end, it's easy to see that failure is imminent.

 

Obviously, Robin is part of the problem, and it is definitely time for him to go. But who or what else is contributing to the problem? Do KW/RH lack the ability to hold their employees accountable and create a new organizational culture? Do players despise KW and their hatred for him affects their ability to play to their highest potential? Is Don Cooper too set in his ways? What exactly has Todd Steverson and his hitters been trying to do to improve their hitting? What is wrong with the players? Are none of our players strong leaders? I have hundreds of questions!

 

I'd love to eat some nasty crow, but I think the Sox are toast. The arrivals of Chris Sale and Jose Abreu could have rejuvenated the organization, but did not. The hot start of this year was certainly deceiving because we are not used to hot starts. We are used to mid-season hot streaks that bring us close to .500, but not a hot start. It was nice, but has been proven to be nothing more than a regular hot streak just at a different part of the season.

 

Moreover, and bash me all you want for this, but I am DONE with this version of the White Sox. This JR/KW/RH/RV/DC clown show. As a diehard fan, I am ready for significant organizational change and I know I probably will not get it. Unless magic and miracles really can happen, I won't be attending another Sox game this year. We vote with our dollars. Ideally, Jerry finally sells the team and the new owner makes changes across the board. The grass isn't always greener on the other side, but this grass here hasn't been cut in a long time and at least the grass over there will be freshly mowed. If Jerry doesn't sell the team, he needs to launch almost everyone in a management position and surround himself with new people (yeah right).

 

These are dark days for the White Sox and their fans. They are going to lose tons of new baseball fans to the now amazing Cubs organization, revenue will continue to fall as more and more fans reach decisions like mine and there will seemingly always be a complete failure from the owner and his management team to instill a winning culture. I love watching the game of baseball, but if I want to watch bad baseball I'll go see the Kane County Cougars and save a bunch of money. Right now it just completely sucks to be a fan of this organization, but one day things will finally change. I just hope it is sooner rather than later.

[harfman77]

could be partially true. although, KW and Hahn worked together for years before so you would think they worked well together as they both had chances to leave the situation but didn't. Also, JR didn't bring Hostetler, KW and Han did, so again you would think that they would work together. I think this past draft has signified a new direction for the group. The recent past way wasn't working so they decided to change it.

 

thisd is some of what I don't get about the KW issues people have he has shown the ability to change his thought process when something isn't working. He tried the safe college picks, didn't get results. Changed to high upside picks to find a superstar, didn't work. Brought in Hahn to lead more, didn't work. So now they've brought in Hostetler to change it up. He needed to let each step take a few years to see if it would work or not. He really has shown the ability of a good executive.

 

now the point can be made that they want to go in a new direction and change leadership because all all of them are hired to be fired.

 

 

JR brings everyone in, at the end of the day, not a single exec is going to get hired without his approval. One of the larger issues I have with JR is that he just shuffles the chairs on the ship rather than bringing in guys from the outside with fresh perspectives and approaches. Yes, Hahn and Hostetler are relatively new at their jobs, but their bosses in their former positions are still the same people they are reporting to today and still have as much input to the conversations as they had with their old positions. To me what is not working is having too many opinions at the top which creates a Frankenstein approach to running an organization.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Ventura isn't a major league manager. At least with Renteria, we know that he is one. Won't always agree with any manager but knowing we have an actual manager will be great. A lot of its on the players and I understand that.

[ptatc]

JR brings everyone in, at the end of the day, not a single exec is going to get hired without his approval. One of the larger issues I have with JR is that he just shuffles the chairs on the ship rather than bringing in guys from the outside with fresh perspectives and approaches. Yes, Hahn and Hostetler are relatively new at their jobs, but their bosses in their former positions are still the same people they are reporting to today and still have as much input to the conversations as they had with their old positions. To me what is not working is having too many opinions at the top which creates a Frankenstein approach to running an organization.

JR approves everyone. He doesn't go out, recruit and decide who to bring in.

 

Everything else is true. There are people there from before. however, as I said it's not like Hahn is brand new, he has a working relationship with KW and if he didn't think it would work he would have left. I like the new direction they seem to be heading. I think they all had a hand in it and it could work. There a few questions if they decide to change the front office. 1. if you like the draft, what will happen to Hostetler? Can he work with the new GM?