Robin Ventura should be fired today

[Dick Allen]

At this point, a target should be placed on Hahn & KW's backs. It's bulls*** they continue to blame the players when they are the ones who put the team together. If the players are once again underperforming (their opinion), then they should want to fire Robin and see if another manager can get them to play up to their potential. Right now, it feels like they're keeping Robin around to avoid the heat being brought onto them and ensuring themselves another year by canning him in the offseason.

This doesn't match up with your must fire Robin post, saying that should do some good is saying the team is good enough to win. They just need a better manager. Football, basketball, hockey, you change the coach, you change a lot more than what you change when you fir a manager in baseball. But they are running out of things to do. To me, Anderson was total desperation. I think he is eventually going to be a really fun player. But at this point, unless Rollins was a clubhouse problem, and all indications are the opposite, I really don't think he gives you a better chance at winning that what was here before. At some point, I think he will, but not now. It shows they are running out of ideas. I would think Robin is close to being gone. They probably give him this series, but if they don't win at least 2, I think most fans will get their wish. And if that doesn't work, I think a fire sale and a semi rebuild occurs which more than likely buys KW and RH more employment.

[GreatScott82]

At this point, a target should be placed on Hahn & KW's backs. It's bulls*** they continue to blame the players when they are the ones who put the team together. If the players are once again underperforming (their opinion), then they should want to fire Robin and see if another manager can get them to play up to their potential. Right now, it feels like they're keeping Robin around to avoid the heat being brought onto them and ensuring themselves another year by canning him in the offseason.

Agreed. No other reason for him to still be here after this pathetic, lifeless stretch of baseball. Im also starting to think JR is losing a pulse on everything due to his age. Back in 2003, I'm pretty sure he went down to the clubhouse to reem the team out for being lifeless.( It was Manual's last year) You just don't see or hear him doing this anymore.

[Chicago White Sox]

This doesn't match up with your must fire Robin post, saying that should do some good is saying the team is good enough to win. They just need a better manager. Football, basketball, hockey, you change the coach, you change a lot more than what you change when you fir a manager in baseball. But they are running out of things to do. To me, Anderson was total desperation. I think he is eventually going to be a really fun player. But at this point, unless Rollins was a clubhouse problem, and all indications are the opposite, I really don't think he gives you a better chance at winning that what was here before. At some point, I think he will, but not now. It shows they are running out of ideas. I would think Robin is close to being gone. They probably give him this series, but if they don't win at least 2, I think most fans will get their wish. And if that doesn't work, I think a fire sale and a semi rebuild occurs which more than likely buys KW and RH more employment.

I think the team is pressing & underperforming, and as a result, I think firing Robin is a must. I also think the team is flawed and I hold Hahn & KW responsible for those short-comings. I'm not sure why only one party can be responsible for this s*** show. The players, coaching staff, front office, & even ownership group have all played a role in our recent failures. We need to start holding some of these people accountable and it can't just be the players and it obviously won't be Reinsdorf.

 

Like I said, fire Robin ASAP because he is not a good manager. Give Renteria a 3 1/2 month tryout and see what he does with the team. If they continue to struggle, at least it's pretty clear the flawed roster was the primary reason and maybe we see some changes in the front office. Another failed season is proof that whatever they are doing isn't working.

[caulfield12]

Why would anyone in their right mind trust KW or Hahn to "rebuild" this roster?

 

What has Hahn done to earn that trust? Stayed a "loyal soldier" for a decade?

 

Bringing up Anderson before he was 100% ready should be the last straw if you're JR...along with overpaying for James Shields.

Edited June 12, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Why would anyone in their right mind trust KW or Hahn to "rebuild" this roster?

 

What has Hahn done to earn that trust? Stayed a "loyal soldier" for a decade?

 

Bringing up Anderson before he was 100% ready should be the last straw if you're JR...along with overpaying for James Shields.

Dayton Morre took over KC in 2006. They sucked and sucked and sucked, then in 2014 they were good, and you acted like he invented baseball . So Hahn has several more years until he proves worthless.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

I'm also starting to think JR is losing a pulse on everything due to his age. Back in 2003, I'm pretty sure he went down to the clubhouse to reem the team out for being lifeless.( It was Manual's last year) You just don't see or hear him doing this anymore.

This is totally what that looks like.

[caulfield12]

1) Was Dayton Moore expected to have a "playoff" window within five years of taking over the team?

 

2) Had the White Sox been twenty years removed from the sniffing the playoffs?

 

3) Did the White Sox have a MUCH bigger operational budget to work with and many built-in advantages?

 

If you guaranteed every Sox fan a ten team games over .500 in Year 7-8, two World Series appearances, one title and one near miss and a two year window remaining after that, you wouldn't find many fans who wouldn't take that...even if it meant waiting until 2024.

[Dick Allen]

1) Was Dayton Moore expected to have a "playoff" window within five years of taking over the team?

 

2) Had the White Sox been twenty years removed from the sniffing the playoffs?

 

3) Did the White Sox have a MUCH bigger operational budget to work with and many built-in advantages?

 

If you guaranteed every Sox fan a ten team games over .500 in Year 7-8, two World Series appearances, one title and one near miss and a two year window remaining after that, you wouldn't find many fans who wouldn't take that...even if it meant waiting until 2024.

Why was Dayton Moore not expected to win in 5 years but Rick Han was? KW dumped it on Hahn when the window was closed. 2013 the talent was old, and done. Not much he could do. Of course you have to figure he wasn't totally innocent since he was part of the decision making process for many years, but it isn' like this is a 100 loss team. They are still right around .500 with a month they haven't had in years.

 

The one thing I am very concerned about is they seem to have lost their mojo when it comes to identifying offense. They always had a good offense until about 2007. Seemed to bounce back in 2008, but back to crap until 2012 when they had 5 guys crank at least 25 homers. Since then, horrible. They need some home run hitters, since they moved into this park, they have had one team that was good that wasn't a home run hitting team. Their reclamation projects hitting and pitching mostly always seemed to work. Now it as if all of them if they don't get released, would be by successful teams.

 

Hahn, whether he cans Robin or not, needs to get a middle of the line up hitter pronto. Maybe with Morneau available in a month it lessens the need it be left handed, but if the White Sox are truly committed to winning this year they have to make this happen quickly. At best, the offense as currently constructed is going to be massively inconsistent,

[Baron]

I think Robin could slug Rick Hahn in the face and still not get fired. I dont think it matters how many series we lose.

[caulfield12]

Abreu hit a 98 MPH fastball today, there's something more mental and/or mechanics oriented going on there.

 

The problem isn't even Abreu (or having a clean-up hitter) so much as the fact that Brett Lawrie's our fifth best hitter. That tells you all you need to know. We need at least 1 if not 2 BETTER hitters.

 

 

That said, if you look at that 2012 team, it should have been converted into more assets. You had building blocks in Sale/Q/Santiago already to serve as your rotation. Peavy wasn't converted into Iglesias, but Avi instead, who we couldn't trade for more than Erik Johnson or Carlos Sanchez right now. Rios brought back Leury Garcia. Dunn was a perennial All-Star or at least put up 900+ OPS seasons at the very least. You had assets in Santos and Reed (maybe Santos had just been dealt for Molina to open the role for Reed, would have to look it up) which were turned into absolutely nothing.

 

Obviously a lot of the players on that team just didn't last, especially the rookie pitchers. Nate Jones is still around, though, along with Sale and Q.

 

We had a number of busts there also with Beckham, Viciedo....not to mention the eventual deterioration in the play of Alexei Ramirez and DeAza to look forward to. The end of the AJ years and the "coming" of Tyler Flowers.

 

 

If we had made the right trades, drafted better players who were ready to contribute in 2013-14 (see the likes of Gillaspie/Flowers)...just too much patchwork (see Jeff Keppinger) and band aids, not enough high ceiling talent.

 

 

 

At any rate, I still don't trust Hahn as a judge or evaluator of talent. I would rather give the job to Hostetler today and let him rebuild the system than let Rick Hahn make those same decisions.

Edited June 13, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Abreu hit a 98 MPH fastball today, there's something more mental and/or mechanics oriented going on there.

 

The problem isn't even Abreu (or having a clean-up hitter) so much as the fact that Brett Lawrie's our fifth best hitter. That tells you all you need to know. We need at least 1 if not 2 BETTER hitters.

 

 

That said, if you look at that 2012 team, it should have been converted into more assets. You had building blocks in Sale/Q/Santiago already to serve as your rotation. Peavy wasn't converted into Iglesias, but Avi instead, who we couldn't trade for more than Erik Johnson or Carlos Sanchez right now. Rios brought back Leury Garcia. Dunn was a perennial All-Star or at least put up 900+ OPS seasons at the very least. You had assets in Santos and Reed (maybe Santos had just been dealt for Molina to open the role for Reed, would have to look it up) which were turned into absolutely nothing.

 

Obviously a lot of the players on that team just didn't last, especially the rookie pitchers. Nate Jones is still around, though, along with Sale and Q.

 

We had a number of busts there also with Beckham, Viciedo....not to mention the eventual deterioration in the play of Alexei Ramirez and DeAza to look forward to. The end of the AJ years and the "coming" of Tyler Flowers.

 

 

If we had made the right trades, drafted better players who were ready to contribute in 2013-14 (see the likes of Gillaspie/Flowers)...just too much patchwork (see Jeff Keppinger) and band aids, not enough high ceiling talent.

 

 

 

At any rate, I still don't trust Hahn as a judge or evaluator of talent. I would rather give the job to Hostetler today and let him rebuild the system than let Rick Hahn make those same decisions.

Santiago was turned into Adam Eaton. It was a frwaking steal, Santiago is horrible. He is a home run throwing machine who is lucky to make it through the 5th inning. Rios was shopped around, no one wanted to pay much for him., which isn't surprising since the Sox had to give up nothing to get him. Dunn wasn't bringing anything back. The Reed trade was bad, but most here loved it. The team was cooked, Paulie was never the same after his wrist injury, and the Sox dodged a bullet not bring Youk back. They got a good return for Peavy. Not just Avi.

 

[caulfield12]

We keep saying players like Peavy and Rios didn't "cost" us anything.

 

But they cost us a ton of payroll flexibility and limited further moves to improve the team. Same with James Shields, potentially.

 

 

Say whatever you want about the Royals, but they've lucked into prolonging their window through 2017 by gaining the benefit of knowledge (White Sox can never be patient enough with their younger players) about Cuthbert, Colon, Merrifield, Eibner, Orlando, Fuentes, Butera right now while still competing "on the fly."

 

If those players can at least hold their own (and none of them are Top 10, other than Cuthbert)...then if Moore can just keep Cain/Moustakas/Gordon/Perez together as the core with a bunch of Piranhas around them (see Twins 2001-2010), then it's a workable model...along with that bullpen/team speed/defense. One that won't cost over $140-150 million at any point in the future because they'll have to let Cain/Hosmer/Moustakas/Duffy/Escobar?Volquez/Davis all go after next year.

 

Perez, Herrera, Gordon, Ventura, Kennedy will be their remaining core after 2017.

 

The Royals certainly didn't anticipate Kendrys Morales going from DH of the Year to one of the bottom ten OPS-wise or for Escobar to be a complete black hole offensively, but the model isn't that hard if you develop players the right way who can do the little things...like making contact, not hurting you defensively, having some speed, advancing runners for the big boppers, etc.

 

 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

They won't make a change because they're gutless loyal cowards.

[Special K]

If this season is a miserable failure, which it is obviously turning out to be because the sox play with no guts against teams in their division, you blow up the roster to smithereens. Hold on to Rodon and Anderson, but everyone else must go. A true blow up and just stack the rfarm. This should, of course, be done in the winter under new management or we will end up with a team full of Avis. Let's suck for 4 years and hope all the new talent we just drafted and the talent we get from dealing guys like Sale, Q, Abreu, Robertson, Frazier, Eaton, and anyone else worthwhiile will help us compete in 4-5 years. Rodon and Anderson should be hitting their prime by then. It will suck to have never put a winning team behind Sale, but we can't do that now anyways. Let's get a haul for him and also allow him to play for something meaningful.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Special K

[ptatc]

They won't make a change because they're gutless loyal cowards.

This is the only place where the word loyal is a four letter word. In most places it's a good thing.

[SCCWS]

This is the only place where the word loyal is a four letter word. In most places it's a good thing.

 

Who is loyal??? Is JR loyal??? He allowed his GM to fire Thobodeau. Maybe Hahn/KW are the ones who are loyal. Maybe JR is loyal to Robin becuase he played here.

 

[jamesdiego]

JR is loyal is his friends. Even if they suck at their job.

[ptatc]

JR is loyal is his friends. Even if they suck at their job.

This is Hahn's 4th or 5th year as GM. Is that enough time to determine this?

[Baron]

This is Hahn's 4th or 5th year as GM. Is that enough time to determine this?

 

 

The answer should be yes. In any other sport the 4th year would be the year you know for sure it's working.

[Lip Man 1]

This is the only place where the word loyal is a four letter word. In most places it's a good thing.

 

Loyalty without accountability be it to a sports team, a religion, a politician a government whatever you want to name is usually not a good thing.

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

Who is loyal??? Is JR loyal??? He allowed his GM to fire Thobodeau. Maybe Hahn/KW are the ones who are loyal. Maybe JR is loyal to Robin becuase he played here.

 

He also allowed Hawk to fire LaRussa (a move he's publicly admitted was wrong). The point is he's made exceptions he allowed Doug Collins to be fired. But those are few and far between...and when was the last time he actually fired a member of his front offices?

 

I'm guessing Larry Himes in September 1990, a guy he personally disliked very much.

 

Mark

[greg775]

Fire Robin. You guys know who I want to hire.

[GhostofDickeyKerr]

I'm guessing Larry Himes in September 1990, a guy he personally disliked very much.

 

Funny, since Himes was the best GM he ever had and the only one who gave a deuce about developing the minor league system.

[Real]

Isn't ventura in his last year? Less than 1% chance they fire him. He won't be back next year that's a given. I hope

[Quin]

Fire Robin. You guys know who I want to hire.

 

Marshawn Lynch?