Robin Ventura should be fired today

[Black_Jack29]

This is one of the worst arguments for keeping Robin. The dude completely sucks at his job, but because some Fangraphs article says managers don't matter, I guess we should keep him right? Let's ignore an obvious area of potential improvement because it may only be worth a game or two in the long run. And quite frankly, I think it may worth more than that. Just like we're seeing in the valuation of high-end relievers, context does matter and a manager has the ability to impact the outcome of close games. No doubt it's hard to quantify their value, but that doesn't mean they have little impact on the game.

 

So your counterargument is basically that there are no objective metrics for evaluating managers, but Robin sucks and has to go regardless.

 

Honestly, how many of you apologists still have Robin Ventura posters hanging in your basements? Robin was my favorite player growing up, but you know what, that doesn't mean I can't objective about his abilities as a manager. The guy has accomplished nothing in his tenure with us. He is one of the worst in-game managers I can remember in a long time. I can't think of one positive he provides other than not bringing clubhouse issues to the media. I'm sure the team likes playing for him because he is a nice, laid back guy. Unfortunately, his leadership style isn't working and a change is needed.

 

I'm not a Robin apologist. I think that he's a semi-decent manager and could live with or without him managing the Sox. The best thing that I can say about him is that he doesn't abuse the pitching staff and that he's done a decent job of managing/calming/motivating the not-so-smart contingent of the clubhouse that went wacko back in March. The worst thing that I can say about him is that he's given declining players such as LaRoche and Rollins too much slack.

 

If you folks think that removing Robin and replacing him with Renteria or somebody else with ML managing experience is going to significantly change this team's winning percentage, you're lying to yourself and looking for an easy fix. The problem is the lack of player talent, not the guy who fills out the lineup card.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[captain54]

I'm not a Robin apologist. I think that he's a semi-decent manager and could live with or without him managing the Sox. The best thing that I can say about him is that he doesn't abuse the pitching staff and that he's done a decent job of managing/calming/motivating the not-so-smart contingent of the clubhouse that went wacko back in March. The worst thing that I can say about him is that he's given declining players such as LaRoche and Rollins too much slack.

 

Where are the managing/calming/motivating skills, since the Sox took a mental knockout punch in the disastrous Tuesday nite Texas fiasco, from which they have seriously nosedived?

 

[hi8is]

At least we're not the Cleveland Cavaliers.

[caulfield12]

That was Eaton and Sale...and they've been two of the 10 best players in the AL.

 

Sale's starting to struggle against the ALCD (again), and Eaton's fallen off as well. I'm not sure what Ventura did with Eaton (if anything), but he's turned a below-average (2015) CFer into one of the most valuable commodities in the game. Another team's announcer recently called him the best all-around leadoff hitter in the game today.

 

So who should get credit for that, other than Adam Eaton himself?

Has anyone asked him that question recently?

[Lip Man 1]

The problem is the lack of player talent, not the guy who fills out the lineup card.

 

The answer is obviously both.

 

Mark

 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

The best thing that I can say about him is that he doesn't abuse the pitching staff and that he's done a decent job of managing/calming/motivating the not-so-smart contingent of the clubhouse that went wacko back in March.

 

I would argue completely differently. Do you think that level of outburst would have happened with a manager like Maddon, Bochy, or Showalter? The way that clubhouse reacted goes to show you the complete LACK of control Robin has in that clubhouse.

[hi8is]

Where are the managing/calming/motivating skills, since the Sox took a mental knockout punch in the disastrous Tuesday nite Texas fiasco, from which they have seriously nosedived?

Honestly, it actually has NOTHING to do with Ventura.

 

You see, what happened was - in this ever connected cosmic dance called consciousness, that Tuesday night I broke up with my lady. Shock waves of disdane were sent rippling throughout the stratosphere and resulted in the White Sox becoming unhinged.

 

Blame me or the old lady - not Robin.

[caulfield12]

At least we're not the Cleveland Cavaliers.

 

At least we're not any professional sports team located in Cleveland (watch the Indians now win the World Series).

 

We're not the A's, Rays, Marlins, Twins or a rebuilding NL team (Reds, Padres, Brewers, Rockies, Phillies).

 

We're not Johnny Manziel or that Stanford swimmer's father.

[hi8is]

At least we're not any professional sports team located in Cleveland (watch the Indians now win the World Series).

 

We're not the A's, Rays, Marlins, Twins or a rebuilding NL team (Reds, Padres, Brewers, Rockies, Phillies).

 

We're not Johnny Manziel or that Stanford swimmer's father.

[caulfield12]

Honestly, it actually has NOTHING to do with Ventura.

 

You see, what happened was - in this ever connected cosmic dance called consciousness, that Tuesday night I broke up with my lady. Shock waves of disdane were sent rippling throughout the stratosphere and resulted in the White Sox becoming unhinged.

 

Blame me or the old lady - not Robin.

 

Greg is preserving his disdain for Ventura, Scott Carroll, the White Sox bullpen, every AL Central opponent not named the Twins AND Alex Rios/Adam Dunn/Adam LaRoche.

 

And disappointment with Applebee's new wood-fired offerings not being available in Lawrence, KS.

 

I will remember it more for Ryan Rua's homer to straightaway CF off Albers, though.

 

 

 

Actually, I think there's an exact time and place the season shifted...it was that game Sale started against the Indians where Jose Ramirez and Juan Uribe just battled him to a standoff and sapped the life out of the Sox by turning a 3 1/2 game lead into only a 1/2 game advantage (because we'd played more games).

 

The Albers Miracle Double Game did absolutely nothing to shift things back onto track, unfortunately.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Managers are so ridiculously scapegoated. It doesn't help that there's an endless supply of rubes who think that changing the guy who pencils in the lineup will automatically make the pitchers get hitters out and the hitters hit with runners in scoring position.

 

Then why the resistance to change managers? I agree that managers don't make much of difference. But I think FIRING a manager and bringing in a new face could change some things in the players mindsets, and I'm for giving that shot because nothing else seems to be working right now.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I would argue completely differently. Do you think that level of outburst would have happened with a manager like Maddon, Bochy, or Showalter? The way that clubhouse reacted goes to show you the complete LACK of control Robin has in that clubhouse.

Interesting point.

[captain54]

Honestly, it actually has NOTHING to do with Ventura.

 

You see, what happened was - in this ever connected cosmic dance called consciousness, that Tuesday night I broke up with my lady. Shock waves of disdane were sent rippling throughout the stratosphere and resulted in the White Sox becoming unhinged.

 

Blame me or the old lady - not Robin.

 

Comedy Gold. This. Yup

[LittleHurt05]

Whether or not Ventura is a good manager, I think he should be fired just to send a message to the team. Maybe they get better, maybe they drown in a tailspin, but I'd have zero issue if it happened.

[The Ginger Kid]

The players aren't performing for this manager. He isn't bringing out the best in them.

Yet you wouldn't have said that a few weeks ago, no?

 

If you would've told me on April 4th that on June 5th the Sox would be 1 game over .500 and 2.5 games out of first I would've said sign me up. If you would've told me they were in 1st and 10 games over .500 in May I would've said pass the pipe.

 

As much as I want the FO to do something I think it would just be red meat to angry fans at this point. I know I'm pissed off and want something to change. But honestly, the only thing we all want to see changed is that they start winning more. If they fire Robin and hand the keys to Renteria or someone else and start winning, then I'll admit I was wrong and be happy....but I really don't think changing managers is going to change this team. They should've done it at the end of last season, if at all.

[hi8is]

Comedy Gold. This. Yup

Edited June 6, 2016 by hi8is

[Black_Jack29]

I would argue completely differently. Do you think that level of outburst would have happened with a manager like Maddon, Bochy, or Showalter? The way that clubhouse reacted goes to show you the complete LACK of control Robin has in that clubhouse.

 

Note that it was Kenny Williams, not Robin Ventura, that banned Drake LaRoche from the clubhouse. Also note that Kenny Williams and Chris Sale are both hotheads and have had an antagonistic relationship from day one. I'd love to see Maddon try to "control" Sale and Kenny.

 

Then why the resistance to change managers? I agree that managers don't make much of difference. But I think FIRING a manager and bringing in a new face could change some things in the players mindsets, and I'm for giving that shot because nothing else seems to be working right now.

 

In addition to philosophically not agreeing that managers have much of an effect on team performance, I think that it would be disruptive to fire Ventura in the middle of the season. I would be much more comfortable with JR firing Ventura this winter.

 

If it were up to me, I'd give this current cast of characters another year. If the Sox are still mired in mediocrity in July of 2017, I'd strongly consider holding a firesale, loading up on the best young ML-ready talent that I could, and firing Kenny Williams. That would address the real, systemic problems that have plagued this franchise.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[caulfield12]

Yet you wouldn't have said that a few weeks ago, no?

 

If you would've told me on April 4th that on June 5th the Sox would be 1 game over .500 and 2.5 games out of first I would've said sign me up. If you would've told me they were in 1st and 10 games over .500 in May I would've said pass the pipe.

 

As much as I want the FO to do something I think it would just be red meat to angry fans at this point. I know I'm pissed off and want something to change. But honestly, the only thing we all want to see changed is that they start winning more. If they fire Robin and hand the keys to Renteria or someone else and start winning, then I'll admit I was wrong and be happy....but I really don't think changing managers is going to change this team. They should've done it at the end of last season, if at all.

 

That's all fine and good, but the Indians and Tigers are both riding high, the Royals are just trying to remain afloat until they can make some moves at the deadline while waiting to get back a healthy Alex Gordon and the White Sox are falling like a lead balloon.

 

It's a four team race, and the White Sox are the ONLY team out of those four that has shown the completely inability to beat ANY of their three main rivals (3-12 so far, including essentially three sweeps...Cleveland was 4 games, we lost 3 in a row, so it felt like one for sure considering a 3 1/2 game lead evaporated in just 3 games).

[caulfield12]

Note that it was Kenny Williams, not Robin Ventura, that banned Drake LaRoche from the clubhouse. Also note that Kenny Williams and Chris Sale are both hotheads and have had an antagonistic relationship from day one. I'd love to see Maddon try to "control" Sale and Kenny.

 

 

 

In addition to philosophically not agreeing that managers have much of an effect on team performance, I think that it would be disruptive to fire Ventura in the middle of the season. I would be much more comfortable with JR firing Ventura this winter.

 

If it were up to me, I'd give this current cast of characters another year. If the Sox are still mired in mediocrity in July of 2017, I'd strongly consider holding a firesale, loading up on the best young ML-ready talent that I could, and firing Kenny Williams. That would address the real, systemic problems that have plagued this franchise.

 

How many games under .500 or games out of the 2nd wild card would it take for you to be convinced otherwise THIS YEAR?

 

Where you just say, to hell with it, "might as well try to ignite a spark because this team's going nowhere and Ventura's already a lame duck serving out his last months"? How would it help those key pieces of the 2017 core (like Anderson or Fulmer) to be around that kind of a clubhouse and apathetic atmosphere where they're just playing out the string and trying to be spoilers?

 

At the very least, Renteria can assess those players over the final 2-3 months, and, if not retained, provide his objective insights to whoever gets the full time job for 2017.

[harkness99]

No one thinks it's all on Ventura... but at this point something needs to change to light a fire under this team.

 

This team just looks so tense and under pressure all the time.

[Black_Jack29]

How many games under .500 or games out of the 2nd wild card would it take for you to be convinced otherwise THIS YEAR?

 

Where you just say, to hell with it, "might as well try to ignite a spark because this team's going nowhere and Ventura's already a lame duck serving out his last months"? How would it help those key pieces of the 2017 core (like Anderson or Fulmer) to be around that kind of a clubhouse and apathetic atmosphere where they're just playing out the string and trying to be spoilers?

 

At the very least, Renteria can assess those players over the final 2-3 months, and, if not retained, provide his objective insights to whoever gets the full time job for 2017.

 

I'm not seeing an apathetic clubhouse. I'm seeing a group of players that were kicking ass just six weeks ago, but currently aren't getting it done. Some due to injury and some for other reasons. I'm also not seeing chemistry problems.

 

Therefore, firing Ventura would just be a symbolic gesture at this point. As somebody else in this thread stated, it would be nothing more than red meat for the fan base. I don't think that it would motivate the team, either. It's more likely that it'd give the team the message that they're not responsible for their record. It would make more sense to "fire" a player that hasn't produced all season. Jimmy Rollins comes to mind.

 

[jasonxctf]

Yet you wouldn't have said that a few weeks ago, no?

 

If you would've told me on April 4th that on June 5th the Sox would be 1 game over .500 and 2.5 games out of first I would've said sign me up. If you would've told me they were in 1st and 10 games over .500 in May I would've said pass the pipe.

 

As much as I want the FO to do something I think it would just be red meat to angry fans at this point. I know I'm pissed off and want something to change. But honestly, the only thing we all want to see changed is that they start winning more. If they fire Robin and hand the keys to Renteria or someone else and start winning, then I'll admit I was wrong and be happy....but I really don't think changing managers is going to change this team. They should've done it at the end of last season, if at all.

 

You're right. But as a manager, it's easy to manage when times are good and everything's clicking. It's when times are bad, your true talents/skills shine. (Or don't in this case)

[harkness99]

Note that it was Kenny Williams, not Robin Ventura, that banned Drake LaRoche from the clubhouse. Also note that Kenny Williams and Chris Sale are both hotheads and have had an antagonistic relationship from day one. I'd love to see Maddon try to "control" Sale and Kenny.

 

 

 

In addition to philosophically not agreeing that managers have much of an effect on team performance, I think that it would be disruptive to fire Ventura in the middle of the season. I would be much more comfortable with JR firing Ventura this winter.

 

If it were up to me, I'd give this current cast of characters another year. If the Sox are still mired in mediocrity in July of 2017, I'd strongly consider holding a firesale, loading up on the best young ML-ready talent that I could, and firing Kenny Williams. That would address the real, systemic problems that have plagued this franchise.

 

Disrupt what exactly?

[Chicago White Sox]

You're right. But as a manager, it's easy to manage when times are good and everything's clicking. It's when times are bad, your true talents/skills shine. (Or don't in this case)

Great post.

[caulfield12]

I'm not seeing an apathetic clubhouse. I'm seeing a group of players that were kicking ass just six weeks ago, but currently aren't getting it done. Some due to injury and some for other reasons. I'm also not seeing chemistry problems.

 

Therefore, firing Ventura would just be a symbolic gesture at this point. As somebody else in this thread stated, it would be nothing more than red meat for the fan base. I don't think that it would motivate the team, either. It's more likely that it'd give the team the message that they're not responsible for their record. It would make more sense to "fire" a player that hasn't produced all season. Jimmy Rollins comes to mind.

 

Not now...more if we don't pull out of this soon ("Dog days of August/Sept").

 

We might JUST be 2.5 games back in the WC hunt right now, but there are almost 10 teams ahead of us in the standings right now in the AL, and DET is just 1/2 behind us. Then you've got two super-franchises in the Yankees and Angels on the wrong side of .500 that aren't just going to give up.

 

It's hard to see how we can stay in the race without playing much better in our own division.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't understand Ventura staying during those final two months any more than I can currently understand why they didn't play Tyler Saladino instead of Alexei Ramirez at SS at the end of last year...

Edited June 6, 2016 by caulfield12