Robin Ventura should be fired today

[ptatc]

This is one of the worst arguments for keeping Robin. The dude completely sucks at his job, but because some Fangraphs article says managers don't matter, I guess we should keep him right? Let's ignore an obvious area of potential improvement because it may only be worth a game or two in the long run. And quite frankly, I think it may worth more than that. Just like we're seeing in the valuation of high-end relievers, context does matter and a manager has the ability to impact the outcome of close games. No doubt it's hard to quantify their value, but that doesn't mean they have little impact on the game.

 

Honestly, how many of you apologists still have Robin Ventura posters hanging in your basements? Robin was my favorite player growing up, but you know what, that doesn't mean I can't objective about his abilities as a manager. The guy has accomplished nothing in his tenure with us. He is one of the worst in-game managers I can remember in a long time. I can't think of one positive he provides other than not bringing clubhouse issues to the media. I'm sure the team likes playing for him because he is a nice, laid back guy. Unfortunately, his leadership style isn't working and a change is needed.

I don't think his point is that the Sox should keep necessarily RV. I think it is anyone expecting any kind of measurable improvement from the team after he's gone is being unrealistic.

 

The team will rise or fall on the backs of the best players. Right now they aren't playing like impact or even good players.

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't think his point is that the Sox should keep necessarily RV. I think it is anyone expecting any kind of measurable improvement from the team after he's gone is being unrealistic.

 

The team will rise or fall on the backs of the best players. Right now they aren't playing like impact or even good players.

Perhaps that's all true, but every game matters and if replacing Robin with Renteria provides us with even one additional win then it's a move worth making.

[greg775]

Does anybody else get the feeling Hawk kind of thinks Robin deserves to get the boot? Do you sense it in his reporting/commentary during games? It seems to me Hawk has seen a lot of bad baseball under Robin and knows Robin, though likeable guy, should be shown the door.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Does anybody else get the feeling Hawk kind of thinks Robin deserves to get the boot? Do you sense it in his reporting/commentary during games? It seems to me Hawk has seen a lot of bad baseball under Robin and knows Robin, though likeable guy, should be shown the door.

 

 

I actually agree. He sounds like he's seen enough.

[Texsox]

Let's look at a couple items.

 

Is the team's record below expectations?

Are there players playing below expectations?

Are there players not being used in a way to maximize their abilities?

Does it appear that the manager has lost hope and is managing to lose? (Think OZ when he wanted to go to Miami)

Is there discord in the clubhouse? Coaching staff?

Is there discord in the staff that is hurting the team?

Are there other explanations for the team's skid other than poor managing? (Lack of talent, holes)

 

I'm not certain that firing Ventura would result in a turn back to a 100 win pace. I wish it was that simple. Do it to make the fans feel better but it would be a temporary fix to fan morale.

 

 

[CB2.0]

Fire Robin, don't....I don't think that's going to really matter.

 

This team needs hitting - particularly against RHP.

 

No manager in the world can cover up that glaring fact.

[SCCWS]

at home

 

4-5 gets him fired

5-4 gets him the road trip, where they have to go at least 3-4

6-3 gives him until the break, unless the Twins sweep them too

 

 

7-2 and he is resigned for 3 years.

8-1 and he is resigned for 4 years

9-0 and he is named Manager /GM

[Dick Allen]

I'm not seeing an apathetic clubhouse. I'm seeing a group of players that were kicking ass just six weeks ago, but currently aren't getting it done. Some due to injury and some for other reasons. I'm also not seeing chemistry problems.

 

Therefore, firing Ventura would just be a symbolic gesture at this point. As somebody else in this thread stated, it would be nothing more than red meat for the fan base. I don't think that it would motivate the team, either. It's more likely that it'd give the team the message that they're not responsible for their record. It would make more sense to "fire" a player that hasn't produced all season. Jimmy Rollins comes to mind.

Exactly. And if people hate the decision making in the dugout now, why would they want Renteria to take his place when he clearly is part of the decision making? Or are they going to say he just sits there all game long and does nothing? They wanted to give him a lot of credit when things were going great.

 

It's just like when many thought the White Sox would have a huge philosophy change when Hahn took the GM job. Why? He was trained by JR and KW and had been part of the decision making process for years.

 

In 1986 if message boards existed, they wouldn't have been ridiculing the Hawk for firing Tony LaRussa. Sox fans hated him. Now they use it against Hawk for firing him. Joe Torre, a guy I think Robin is most like, was thought to be an idiot in Atlanta and St. Louis after he managed them. Then he got great players and is a HOFer. What gives?

 

I read over and over and over how bad just about every player the White Sox have is in gamethreads, then they lose the game and it's why is Robin managing this team?

 

I'm sorry, if people think this is a last place team, so bad, the franchise probably will have to move, no manager in the world is going to fix it.

 

Get Melky back. Have Abreu be Abreu. Hopefully Shields pitches like a 3 or 4 starter, and get another bat. Everything should start rolling again.

[COACH612]

For all those on the fence fan, here is a very good question. Before the season started, the front office made some really good moves to put the WS in a position to contend for the division. The season starts and the team is doing really well and is 6 games in 1st. Then they go into a tail spin and lose a bunch and continue to lose. So what happened? Let's not put all the blame on Ventura. After all, he is not the one hitting or fielding. But what did he or anyone else do to turn this team into a possible last place finish again?

[flavum]

What will we possibly do without the brilliant mind and motivation of a great leader like Robin Ventura?

 

Sign him to a 5-year contract today! Lock that guy up!

[oldsox]

Both the best and worst managing/coaching is still done behind the scenes.

[Dick Allen]

What will we possibly do without the brilliant mind and motivation of a great leader like Robin Ventura?

 

Sign him to a 5-year contract today! Lock that guy up!

Maybe tomorrow you will walk in your office and they will tell you that it's been great but you have to go. The company hasn't done as well as hope YTD, and even though it really isn't on you, they have to send some sort of message. I'm sure you would understand, and would expect the company to start doing better as soon as you walk out the door.

 

The funny thing is, the Sox still ARE doing better at this point than most predicted before the season started.

 

 

If you really could pin walking guys and not getting guys on 3rd base with no outs on the manager, I would be all for canning him. But for all the people who blast old school ways and use of stats, firing the manager when the players suck is the oldest of old school. There isn't a manager in whatever field they are in on this board who thinks they should be fired if the people working under them can't do the job.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Dick Allen

[GreatScott82]

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 08:18 AM) *

This if funny. The reality is this:

They will go 2-7 on this home stand, Robin still gets a 3 year extension. Listen, you guys are right, it's not all on Robin. However, things are just too damn stale around here and a change is long over-due. I'm on the side of the argument where managers do make a difference. I truly believe that 2005 White Sox team does not win the WS w/o Ozzie leading the way. Can you imagine Jerry Manual with that team? I also believe KW, Hahn and the scouting and developmental team have been brutal in regards to the minor league system and creating positional depth for the organization. Seeing guys like Shuck, Sands and Coats playing really opened up my eyes and reality set it-- they cannot overcome injuries or slumping offensive players. They just do NOT have the depth to do so. This organization needs to focus on rebuilding that farm and decvelop the organizational positional depth. We are currently at the crossroads for KW and Robin. It's time for both of them to go for various reasons. I think Hahn can run a successful rebuild ( not being under KWs 'guidance') and he has many assets to trade at the deadline and during the winter if they decide to go this route. Until we get to that point, let's continue to free fall in the standings, lose to AL central opponents and listen to Sox fans get beyond frustrated with the front office for the rest of the Summer. Good times!

Edited June 6, 2016 by GreatScott82

[Texsox]

Both the best and worst managing/coaching is still done behind the scenes.

 

Exactly.

[oneofthemikes]

Greg Walker was the big problem when he was here. Not the players, not anything else. He gets fired, and the offense was fixed. Nope.

 

I.would.rather the Sox do something player wise.it actually produces results.

 

The entire roster has changed since the start of 2013 and the results on the field are alarmingly similar. In fact, the only folks that are still here from 2013 (with very few exceptions) are Robin, Rick, Kenny, and Jerry. It's time to start looking in the mirror because turning over the whole roster didn't do a damn thing.

[GreenSox]

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 08:18 AM) *

They just do NOT have the depth to do so. This organization needs to focus on rebuilding that farm and decvelop the organizational positional depth. We are currently at the crossroads for KW and Robin. It's time for both of them to go for various reasons. I think Hahn can run a successful rebuild ( not being under KWs 'guidance') and he has many assets to trade at the deadline and during the winter if they decide to go this route.

Well, I agree and have been posting daily that they need to build this org and then go for the vets. If they had kept on with it in the winter of 2014 and 2015 they'd be better off. But they aren't going to.

I used to think that Hahn was good enough...at least there was little evidence to think he wasn't good enough.

But when he brought the Dodgers into the Frazier trade and let Thompson go (instead of protecting his best young hitter) I have my doubts. The Frazier trade may have been "fair" for the Sox (probably was, although I wouldn't have done it), but there was surplus value to be had dealing with Jockety, but the Dodgers, not the Sox, got it.

Edited June 6, 2016 by GreenSox

[harkness99]

Maybe tomorrow you will walk in your office and they will tell you that it's been great but you have to go. The company hasn't done as well as hope YTD, and even though it really isn't on you, they have to send some sort of message. I'm sure you would understand, and would expect the company to start doing better as soon as you walk out the door.

 

The funny thing is, the Sox still ARE doing better at this point than most predicted before the season started.

 

 

If you really could pin walking guys and not getting guys on 3rd base with no outs on the manager, I would be all for canning him. But for all the people who blast old school ways and use of stats, firing the manager when the players suck is the oldest of old school. There isn't a manager in whatever field they are in on this board who thinks they should be fired if the people working under them can't do the job.

 

Last year a lot of people picked us to win the division and we finished 4th.

 

This year we appear headed to a similar result (without the expectations).

 

 

Why keep ventura? What's to lose by trying someone else?

 

For one it will allow us to see if the manager really is making any difference in this teams problems.

Edited June 6, 2016 by harkness

[Eminor3rd]

If Ventura is fired, the players will clearly start hitting. Obviously Ventura is the problem.

[Eminor3rd]

Fire Robin, don't....I don't think that's going to really matter.

 

This team needs hitting - particularly against RHP.

 

No manager in the world can cover up that glaring fact.

 

[flavum]

Seriously, this is tired at this point.

 

Enjoy our s***ty organization, everyone!

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Seriously, this is tired at this point.

 

Enjoy our s***ty organization, everyone!

I know right. Just be content with a s***ty team, lineup, and manager. Hey at least we're 1 over! Firing him wouldn't fix everything but it'd show everyone that they're serious about winning this year. Let a real manager take over like Renteria.

[Eminor3rd]

Why keep ventura? What's to lose by trying someone else?

 

 

Other than the support of the entire baseball team?

[flavum]

I know right. Just be content with a s***ty team, lineup, and manager. Hey at least we're 1 over! Firing him wouldn't fix everything but it'd show everyone that they're serious about winning this year. Let a real manager take over like Renteria.

 

Giving Renteria the interim tag makes the most sense if the Sox have a losing homestand. It's just time.

 

Either that, or just play out the rest of the season with nobody watching, and Ventura will go quietly into the night.

[BaconOnAStick]

The "team" is a bunch of losers who should not be listened to on matters of winning games. The Sox goal is trick losers like Jose Quintana, Chris Sale, Jose Abreu and Adam Eaton who've never won anything to try and play winning baseball for a change...they found something that worked in April but all have reverted to losing form since. Their support for Robin is meaningless.

[LVSoxFan]

If this home stand tanks, especially the one against Detroit, what possible excuse would we have for doing nothing, even IF firing Ventura would be simply symbolic?

 

Isn't Detroit sort of our Packers? Like, if we can't beat them, we're not going anywhere? (Granted it used to be Minnesota but I guess it could be any central team at this point).