Stanford Sexual Assault case

[Texsox]

I'm not seeing the inconsistency. If I'm walking down the sidewalk while heavily intoxicated and get hit by a drunk driver, there's no question who's at fault there. The drunk driver is responsible, as is the drunk rapist.

 

Agreed.

 

Can that drunk driver also be too drunk to give consent to sex?

[StrangeSox]

In general.

 

A drunk gets in the car and causes a crash. After staggering out of the car the drunk has a sexual encounter. They are responsible for the crash, but too drunk to give consent to the sex?

 

How is consent relevant in the case of drunk driving?

 

Agreed.

 

Can that drunk driver also be too drunk to give consent to sex?

 

 

Yes. Drunk driving presents a grave risk to others. Being too impaired to consent is about your own personal safety.

Edited June 8, 2016 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

How is consent relevant in the case of drunk driving?

 

 

 

 

Yes. Drunk driving presents a grave risk to others. Being too impaired to consent is about your own personal safety.

 

That is the inconsistency I am trying to explain, but not very well.

 

A person is charged with DUI. We agree they are responsible for their actions. Now do we also believe that they are too drunk to consent to having sex and if someone has sex with them the other person would be charged with rape?

[pettie4sox]

That is the inconsistency I am trying to explain, but not very well.

 

A person is charged with DUI. We agree they are responsible for their actions. Now do we also believe that they are too drunk to consent to having sex and if someone has sex with them the other person would be charged with rape?

 

If they are both drunk, that's a slippery slope. The problem with most of these cases it seems is proof. How do you prove rape?

[StrangeSox]

That is the inconsistency I am trying to explain, but not very well.

 

A person is charged with DUI. We agree they are responsible for their actions. Now do we also believe that they are too drunk to consent to having sex and if someone has sex with them the other person would be charged with rape?

DUI has nothing to do with consent, though. That's the difference.

[Texsox]

DUI has nothing to do with consent, though. That's the difference.

 

I'm trying to point out the difference in the personal responsibility.

 

My point is in the case of driving the person IS responsible for their actions, in the case of having sex the person is not responsible for their actions. Same level of drunk, same person. While drunk we are responsible for some things, but not others.

 

Am I making sense? I know this is my explanation, not your ability to read and think.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I'm trying to point out the difference in the personal responsibility.

 

My point is in the case of driving the person IS responsible for their actions, in the case of having sex the person is not responsible for their actions. Same level of drunk, same person. While drunk we are responsible for some things, but not others.

 

Am I making sense? I know this is my explanation, not your ability to read and think.

The difference is in the person doing the actions. We hold the driver accountable, not the people the driver hits. We hold the rapist accountable, not the rapee. I think I get what you're driving at, that the drunk person 'chose' to drive even though they were impaired beyond rational thinking in the same way they're too impaired to consent to drive, but I think there's a pretty clear difference in those situations.

 

As pettie said, there may be hard edge cases where both parties are blackout drunk, but I don't think that's the general case. Drinking to the point that your judgement is impaired beyond the ability to consent isn't a crime and doesn't inherently pose risks to anyone else.

[Texsox]

Drinking to the point that your judgement is impaired beyond the ability to consent isn't a crime and doesn't inherently pose risks to anyone else.

 

I agree. But isn't it interesting that if the person places themselves in a dangerous position (behind the seat of a car) we assign blame to them. If they place themselves in a dangerous position, (Making out with someone) we do not blame them.

 

Again, it feels like the right thing to do, and there really isn't a better public policy, but I do see a contradiction. Perhaps to close the perceived gap on my part, the people who are around the drunk and allow them to drive should face a similar consequence as does the rapist. They have some control over the drunk who is too impaired to exercise sound judgement.

 

[DrunkBomber]

If two people are both drunk and having sex technically both wouldnt be able to consent and it would be difficult to prove rape after the fact. However when one party is either unconscious or is actively saying no and/or fighting back would be the major difference imo to driving drunk. Also, for the most part DUI's are the result of someone who obviously is impaired making a dumb decision that could effect everyone around them, but its hard to say there is a lot of malice intended. On the other hand someone who is willing to rape someone who is passed out or force themselves on someone has a much different intent.

 

 

[DrunkBomber]

I agree. But isn't it interesting that if the person places themselves in a dangerous position (behind the seat of a car) we assign blame to them. If they place themselves in a dangerous position, (Making out with someone) we do not blame them.

 

Again, it feels like the right thing to do, and there really isn't a better public policy, but I do see a contradiction. Perhaps to close the perceived gap on my part, the people who are around the drunk and allow them to drive should face a similar consequence as does the rapist. They have some control over the drunk who is too impaired to exercise sound judgement.

Making out with someone should never be putting yourself in a dangerous position and I think that line of thought is dangerous.

[Texsox]

I agree. Maybe another way to say this is in one case we protect the drunk from their actions, in the other we don't. The additional of another party is the big difference.

[Texsox]

Making out with someone should never be putting yourself in a dangerous position and I think that line of thought is dangerous.

 

Agreed. The more I try to state my case the less clear and further away from my point I get.

 

 

[DrunkBomber]

Agreed. The more I try to state my case the less clear and further away from my point I get.

I think I understand what you mean. I think the easiest answer is just that getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk can have severe ramifications on everyone around you, and its one of the main causes of death in the country. Whereas if someone is drinking and puts themselves in a risky situation like hooking up with someone they dont know they still arent putting anyone else at risk.

[caulfield12]

Typically, there's always the idea of the stronger (90-95% of the time it's a man) party being the culprit...if you had two drunk people and there was a large disparity in size and strength between them.

 

Tawny Kitaen vs. Chuck Finley comes to mind, although that wasn't rape but domestic assault/DV, which is related but of the same family of crimes.

[caulfield12]

I think I understand what you mean. I think the easiest answer is just that getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk can have severe ramifications on everyone around you, and its one of the main causes of death in the country. Whereas if someone is drinking and puts themselves in a risky situation like hooking up with someone they dont know they still arent putting anyone else at risk.

 

Unless it was unprotected sex and you could prove one of the partners knew they had AIDS/HIV, herpes, etc.

 

Pretty rare, granted, but not an impossible scenario, either.

[Texsox]

I think I understand what you mean. I think the easiest answer is just that getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk can have severe ramifications on everyone around you, and its one of the main causes of death in the country. Whereas if someone is drinking and puts themselves in a risky situation like hooking up with someone they dont know they still arent putting anyone else at risk.

 

There are great reasons why we do that, and it is really the only way to handle it.

 

Perhaps coming at it this way will make the most sense.

 

It seems like everyone around the drunk is responsible for their safety *unless* they get behind the wheel of a car, then it's totally on the drunk.

 

And again, not specific to this case and I probably should have started a different thread.

[pettie4sox]

[Jenksismyhero]

I think the fact that the judge was also an athlete at Stanford is pretty damning.

 

Donald, is that you?

[Jenksismyhero]

 

In a way, the social media takedown of this guy is probably better justice than another few years in jail.

[southsider2k5]

In a way, the social media takedown of this guy is probably better justice than another few years in jail.

 

Yeah, I have to say, the fact that the outrage machine has been pretty universally in high gear shows that while a singular judge might have made a mistake, the general public didn't. Even if it isn't in prison, this kid's life is over.

[greg775]

Yeah, I have to say, the fact that the outrage machine has been pretty universally in high gear shows that while a singular judge might have made a mistake, the general public didn't. Even if it isn't in prison, this kid's life is over.

It truly is over. He has to register as a sex offender. This means he'll never hold a full time job. How do people like that survive? You have to have some sort of income to live.

[southsider2k5]

It truly is over. He has to register as a sex offender. This means he'll never hold a full time job. How do people like that survive? You have to have some sort of income to live.

 

The whole world knows he is a rapist. His life is done.

[Balta1701]

The whole world knows he is a rapist. His life is done.

You haven't paid much attention to the "Men's rights activists" have you? To them this thug is a hero. They banned the group but he had several thousand supporters in a "put him on the US Olympic team" facebook group before it was closed.

[Kyyle23]

I really dont care that his life is done. What i care about is that he is going to be out of jail most likely within 3 months, which puts a sex offender right back out on the street. This kid is affluent, he is going to be just fine. His family obviously has his back, im sure he will have some sort of a family connected job and continue on with his life.

[StrangeSox]

The letter from his friend and then doubling-down on the victim blaming/"it's just political correctness" while heavily promoting her band is pretty awful.

 

http://pitchfork.com/news/65968-northside-...tanford-rapist/