4th Place

[Buehrle>Wood]

"An 8 game lead over the Tigers on May 6th turns into a 1 game lead for DET over the White Sox 24 games later."

 

Ventura was not content on just having the worst collapse in Sox history (2012). Now he's got something to rival it.

[harkness99]

It's where we have been for about 4-5 years....

[soxfan85]

Oh no! We suck again!

[caulfield12]

Of course, Chris Carter had 5 RBI's tonight and now has 16 and 39.

 

Trayce Thompson has been hitting 3rd and now 5th for the Dodgers the last two nights.

 

Marcus Semien has a 743 OPS for the A's, which would be 770-780ish in a favorable hitting environment.

 

 

But we do have that draft pick instead of Semien AND Desmond.

[caulfield12]

"An 8 game lead over the Tigers on May 6th turns into a 1 game lead for DET over the White Sox 24 games later."

 

Ventura was not content on just having the worst collapse in Sox history (2012). Now he's got something to rival it.

 

Even the Indians, when they picked up 12 1/2 games on us in 2005 before Crede homered off Riske, that took them 44 games played at a 33-11 clip to just come "close" to catching the White Sox.

 

This was 19 fewer games to go from a surefire playoff position to selling off assets at the deadline (heck, 4 games after ADDING significant salary) and probably firing the manager as well.

[flavum]

After tonight:

 

May 10--June 7

 

Cle 17-11 (3-1 vs Sox)

Det 16-11 (3-0 vs Sox)

KC 15-12 ( 5-1 vs Sox)

Sox 6-19

[caulfield12]

Flavum, that might be too depressing a stat to track for a considerable period of time.

 

Maybe counting days until Ventura is fired? How many consecutive losses they can absorb without any corrective action being taken?

 

You could use emojis/icons with Roman emperor Nero fiddling. One fiddle for a good game, five fiddles for warning/bullpen or managerial implosion.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Yet Robin still has a job...

[dpd9189]

After 58 games in 2015, Sox were 28-30.

 

After 58 games in 2016, Sox are 29-29. 1 game better than last year after a 23-10 start.

 

Unreal.

[hi8is]

After 58 games in 2015, Sox were 28-30.

 

After 58 games in 2016, Sox are 29-29. 1 game better than last year after a 23-10 start.

 

Unreal.

[Rowand44]

Better than 5th place!

[greg775]

"An 8 game lead over the Tigers on May 6th turns into a 1 game lead for DET over the White Sox 24 games later."

 

Ventura was not content on just having the worst collapse in Sox history (2012). Now he's got something to rival it.

It's almost impossible to go 6-19 unless you truly have a pathetic ballclub. It's KW's fault as much as Robin obviously.

[witesoxfan]

It's almost impossible to go 6-19 unless you truly have a pathetic ballclub. It's KW's fault as much as Robin obviously.

 

Actually, it's nowhere near impossible to go 6-19. Both the Astros ('05) and Twins ('06) were 15+ games UNDER .500 and still managed to either proceed to the World Series or win the division in what was then a stacked division. If this team is who we think it is, and adding James Shields helps a bunch (and by a bunch, I mean by one win, as long as it is Latos who goes, because he should be serving batting practice with that flat-ass fastball, not Matt Albergers), then they'll be OK. If the bullpen continues to truly implode, then fire Don Cooper. He's in charge of the pitching staff, isn't he? At what point do you hold those people who fail at their jobs accountable? Tommy LaSorda is one of the greatest managers of all time, but I don't want that guy running this team. Maybe it's time for a change in pitching coaches.

 

Seriously, what has Don Cooper done for me lately?

 

#HOTTAKE

[pettie4sox]

Dude where have you been?

[caulfield12]

If we DFA'ed Matt Albers, Dan Jennings, Kahnle, Carroll, Webb, Beck, Zach Duke and Purke tomorrow, how many potential suitors would be willing to give up anything of significance for those guys?

 

Putnam's been doing quite well recently, and I'm not even sure that we'd get much back for him. Maybe some team's 24th or 25th bench player?

 

To have any real value, you've got to have dominant stuff, two pitches you can throw for strikes even when behind in the count, be an effective lefty against LHBers OR have something very unique or distinctive about your style or repertoire.

 

In reality, Cooper did a great job doing what he could to get something useful out of all those guys...Latos and Albers included. Putnam and Carroll and Petricka. All of these guys basically came off the scrap heap or were failed starters in the case of Petricka.

 

If you average out their first month (32 games) and their last 26, you get an average MLB bullpen. Why everyone's expecting it to compete with the Yankees or KC is beyond me, they just don't have the talent to strike out tons of hitters, other than Jones and Robertson.

 

 

 

 

[hi8is]

If we DFA'ed Matt Albers, Dan Jennings, Kahnle, Carroll, Webb, Beck, Zach Duke and Purke tomorrow, how many potential suitors would be willing to give up anything of significance for those guys?

 

Putnam's been doing quite well recently, and I'm not even sure that we'd get much back for him. Maybe some team's 24th or 25th bench player?

 

To have any real value, you've got to have dominant stuff, two pitches you can throw for strikes even when behind in the count, be an effective lefty against LHBers OR have something very unique or distinctive about your style or repertoire.

 

In reality, Cooper did a great job doing what he could to get something useful out of all those guys...Latos and Albers included. Putnam and Carroll and Petricka. All of these guys basically came off the scrap heap or were failed starters in the case of Petricka.

 

If you average out their first month (32 games) and their last 26, you get an average MLB bullpen. Why everyone's expecting it to compete with the Yankees or KC is beyond me, they just don't have the talent to strike out tons of hitters, other than Jones and Robertson.

Post of the day award.

[witesoxfan]

Dude where have you been?

 

Work. At my most active, I was behind a computer desk. At my least active (now), I am running my ass off 90% of the time, smoking cigarettes 5% of the time, taking a poop 2% of the time, and standing around doing nothing 2% of the time. That gives me like 1%, and I just like to at least catch up with the sporting world and the HOT TAKES that are provided on Deadspin (did you guys know that Muhammad Ali was greater than Jesus and Moses and Allah COMBINED? sorry, religious comment, please move 4th place thread to Filibuster). I still follow FanGraphs too and have a communication with Eminor3rd, as he is the genius who sparked the Sabermetrics Day for the Staten Island Yankees.

 

[shameless plug: if you are able to attend that, you will make him very happy, and he is very awesome. June 19th, Staten Island Yankees. I am not able to attend due to complications at work and also f***ing girlfriend cant get it off and she would kill me (not literally, relax) if I went to NYC without her. I legitimately did try to get there]

 

Also, video games. NHL is way cooler than I thought, plus MLB and still playing Fallout and Witcher 3, plus following the White Sox who are probably still an 85 win team. I've seen this team do crazy things, but the talent is there to win 85 games, and there's a ton of room for improvement (like 3-4 wins). With the right moves, I could see this team winning 92 games, but you'd be gutting the farm system at that point. For the past 4 years, the Sox have been in the worst position among any team in the league, yet they do what they can do make themselves relevant, and they're doing it again this year. It's not a philosophy I endorse, but it's not one that I would dissuade from either.

[witesoxfan]

If we DFA'ed Matt Albers, Dan Jennings, Kahnle, Carroll, Webb, Beck, Zach Duke and Purke tomorrow, how many potential suitors would be willing to give up anything of significance for those guys?

 

Putnam's been doing quite well recently, and I'm not even sure that we'd get much back for him. Maybe some team's 24th or 25th bench player?

 

To have any real value, you've got to have dominant stuff, two pitches you can throw for strikes even when behind in the count, be an effective lefty against LHBers OR have something very unique or distinctive about your style or repertoire.

 

In reality, Cooper did a great job doing what he could to get something useful out of all those guys...Latos and Albers included. Putnam and Carroll and Petricka. All of these guys basically came off the scrap heap or were failed starters in the case of Petricka.

 

If you average out their first month (32 games) and their last 26, you get an average MLB bullpen. Why everyone's expecting it to compete with the Yankees or KC is beyond me, they just don't have the talent to strike out tons of hitters, other than Jones and Robertson.

.

Are you f***ing high? Albers and Jennings would be claimed in a second, Kahnle's thrown like 6 innings, Carroll is apparently a White Sox lifer, Daniel Webb has sucked f***ing dong, Zach Duke is still due like $8 mill (and would be scooped off waivers IMMEDIATELY) and Matt Purke is a AAAA player who has had like one good night of pitching in his life.

 

I don't even get what you're trying to say here. Are you defending Cooper despite the fact that the pitching staff has been dogs*** for the past 4 years, despite the club spending money on pitchers?

[Real]

Yet Robin still has a job...

 

With this ownership, it's definitely not a team I can recommend to my friends to root for. haha

 

Zero accountability, z e r o.

[caulfield12]

.

Are you f***ing high? Albers and Jennings would be claimed in a second, Kahnle's thrown like 6 innings, Carroll is apparently a White Sox lifer, Daniel Webb has sucked f***ing dong, Zach Duke is still due like $8 mill (and would be scooped off waivers IMMEDIATELY) and Matt Purke is a AAAA player who has had like one good night of pitching in his life.

 

I don't even get what you're trying to say here. Are you defending Cooper despite the fact that the pitching staff has been dogs*** for the past 4 years, despite the club spending money on pitchers?

 

 

Please name ONE team that would commit to paying Zach Duke $8 million for the next 1 2/3rd's years.

 

Your what hurts?

 

I think you're seriously overestimating the esteem with which the rest of MLB holds our relievers. Jennings isn't anything special. There are left-handed relievers like him all over baseball, could be the next one is Purke for all we know. Despite Duke being absolutely terrible this past month, he hasn't been pushed ahead of him into 7th and 8th inning high leverage situations.

 

I also distinctly recall on a number of occasions reading on this board that reliever XYZ could/should be flipped for XYZ prospect, and how often has that actually happened to our benefit the last 3-4 years? NOT OFTEN. Sounds too Cubs-like.

 

What has Don Cooper actually done that's so bad? If you want to blame him for Rodon "regressing," that's probably the closest to a direct hit you're going to get on him...because it's pretty obvious he was extracting the maximum he was ever going to get out of the likes of Latos, Gonzalez and Albers. Now they're simply returning to their norms/means.

 

In fact, name all those teams that are highly desirous of Duke and I will start sending out the e-mails to their Assistant GM's right this moment, because we're going to need that $8 million to pay for other needed spare parts to fix this team and keep it from completely sinking out of contention over the month of June.

 

 

Finally, look at that 2012 roster. How many of those rookie pitchers other than Santiago and Q are still even playing professional baseball?

Don Cooper is a miracle worker, I tell you. Surely, he would also be willing to tell you.

Edited June 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

oh good god

 

Please name ONE team that would commit to paying Zach Duke $8 million for the next 1 2/3rd's years.

 

Brewers, Phillies, Braves, Reds, Padres, Twins, Yankees, Red Sox, Blue Jays. Do you understand talent distribution and how little left handed pitching there is in the majors Duke would get sucked up in a heart beat at his current contract.

 

Your what hurts?

 

Back. My back hurts, but that's mostly due to work. Not sure what you're saying here otherwise, because if I don't/can't have sex, I choke my chicken. Are you trying to make a Hawkism relevant in a non-relevant situation? Because that's what it looks like. I also call it spanking the monkey.

 

I think you're seriously overestimating the esteem with which the rest of MLB holds our relievers. Jennings isn't anything special. There are left-handed relievers like him all over baseball, could be the next one is Purke for all we know. Despite Duke being absolutely terrible this past month, he hasn't been pushed ahead of him into 7th and 8th inning high leverage situations.

 

Of course Jennings isn't special. He still throws 93 from the left side with a semblance of command. He'd get eaten up immediately.

(also, no there are not. There are similar, but this one is throws hard, and has command. While there are many that throw harder and have better command, this one is the White Sox, and no one else shall have him)

 

I also distinctly recall on a number of occasions reading on this board that reliever XYZ could/should be flipped for XYZ prospect, and how often has that actually happened to our benefit the last 3-4 years? NOT OFTEN. Sounds too Cubs-like.

 

Well, #1, it takes one hit. How about Heathcliff Slocumb from the Red Sox to the Mariners? You remember that one, right? Or Doyle Alexander from the Braves to the Tigers for some prospect named John Smoltz. I'm sure there are more recent examples, but you still don't make sense because

 

#2 OH HEY GUYS, DON'T DO WHAT THE BEST TEAM IN THE MAJORS HAS DONE, THEY'RE THE CUBS, THEY SUCK, WHAT A BUNCH OF WUSSIES

 

#3 this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

 

What has Don Cooper actually done that's so bad? If you want to blame him for Rodon "regressing," that's probably the closest to a direct hit you're going to get on him...because it's pretty obvious he was extracting the maximum he was ever going to get out of the likes of Latos, Gonzalez and Albers. Now they're simply returning to their norms/means.

 

I expect him to actually make more pitchers than he has "good." Quintana doesn't have many quotes in the press - understandable. Sale does. Sale said he was trying to cut down on his pitches and would work more towards contact so he can work deeper into games. Is that something he came up with on his own or did he have a heart to heart sit down with Don Cooper on that? So what has Don Cooper done that's so good? I like the guy. When he's the pitching coach for my favorite team, and I haven't seen a thing but a turnstile of pitchers, I'm going to light fires.

 

In fact, name all those teams that are highly desirous of Duke and I will start sending out the e-mails to their Assistant GM's right this moment, because we're going to need that $8 million to pay for other needed spare parts to fix this team and keep it from completely sinking out of contention over the month of June.

 

There are 29 teams in the major leagues. If I had the power to put him on waivers, I would do so to prove a point, but I imagine that, given his contract, there'd be like 4-5 teams who would NOT claim Duke on waivers given his current contract.

 

Finally, look at that 2012 roster. How many of those rookie pitchers other tn Santiago and Q are still even playing professional baseball?

Don Cooper is a miracle worker, I tell you. Surely, he would also be willing to tell you.

 

Thanks for qualifying it as "rookie," so that way you can eliminate Peavy, Sale, Liriano, Jones, Floyd, Thornton, Crain, Myers, and, oh, Will Ohman. The miracle workers for that team were Alex Rios and AJ Pierzynski, because had they posted their normal career numbers, that would have been a 78 win team.

 

---

 

I'd feel bad not ending this with an ALL HAIL DONALD COOPER

[Dick Allen]

Please name ONE team that would commit to paying Zach Duke $8 million for the next 1 2/3rd's years.

 

Your what hurts?

 

I think you're seriously overestimating the esteem with which the rest of MLB holds our relievers. Jennings isn't anything special. There are left-handed relievers like him all over baseball, could be the next one is Purke for all we know. Despite Duke being absolutely terrible this past month, he hasn't been pushed ahead of him into 7th and 8th inning high leverage situations.

 

I also distinctly recall on a number of occasions reading on this board that reliever XYZ could/should be flipped for XYZ prospect, and how often has that actually happened to our benefit the last 3-4 years? NOT OFTEN. Sounds too Cubs-like.

 

What has Don Cooper actually done that's so bad? If you want to blame him for Rodon "regressing," that's probably the closest to a direct hit you're going to get on him...because it's pretty obvious he was extracting the maximum he was ever going to get out of the likes of Latos, Gonzalez and Albers. Now they're simply returning to their norms/means.

 

In fact, name all those teams that are highly desirous of Duke and I will start sending out the e-mails to their Assistant GM's right this moment, because we're going to need that $8 million to pay for other needed spare parts to fix this team and keep it from completely sinking out of contention over the month of June.

 

 

Finally, look at that 2012 roster. How many of those rookie pitchers other than Santiago and Q are still even playing professional baseball?

Don Cooper is a miracle worker, I tell you. Surely, he would also be willing to tell you.

So Robin Ventura is supposed to consistently win games with these players, but it is unreasonable to think Don Cooper can do much with them because they all suck. Got it.

[caulfield12]

FIRE NOBODY.

 

Let's remain in Dante's 9th circle of hell forever!!!

 

Stuck perpetually between contention and getting Top 3-5 draft picks (well, we did manage that feat once, which isn't surprising with the 5th worst record in baseball for the last 3+ years).

 

 

[caulfield12]

oh good god

 

 

 

Brewers, Phillies, Braves, Reds, Padres, Twins, Yankees, Red Sox, Blue Jays. Do you understand talent distribution and how little left handed pitching there is in the majors Duke would get sucked up in a heart beat at his current contract.

 

 

 

Back. My back hurts, but that's mostly due to work. Not sure what you're saying here otherwise, because if I don't/can't have sex, I choke my chicken. Are you trying to make a Hawkism relevant in a non-relevant situation? Because that's what it looks like. I also call it spanking the monkey.

 

 

 

Of course Jennings isn't special. He still throws 93 from the left side with a semblance of command. He'd get eaten up immediately.

(also, no there are not. There are similar, but this one is throws hard, and has command. While there are many that throw harder and have better command, this one is the White Sox, and no one else shall have him)

 

 

 

Well, #1, it takes one hit. How about Heathcliff Slocumb from the Red Sox to the Mariners? You remember that one, right? Or Doyle Alexander from the Braves to the Tigers for some prospect named John Smoltz. I'm sure there are more recent examples, but you still don't make sense because

 

#2 OH HEY GUYS, DON'T DO WHAT THE BEST TEAM IN THE MAJORS HAS DONE, THEY'RE THE CUBS, THEY SUCK, WHAT A BUNCH OF WUSSIES

 

#3 this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

 

 

 

I expect him to actually make more pitchers than he has "good." Quintana doesn't have many quotes in the press - understandable. Sale does. Sale said he was trying to cut down on his pitches and would work more towards contact so he can work deeper into games. Is that something he came up with on his own or did he have a heart to heart sit down with Don Cooper on that? So what has Don Cooper done that's so good? I like the guy. When he's the pitching coach for my favorite team, and I haven't seen a thing but a turnstile of pitchers, I'm going to light fires.

 

 

 

There are 29 teams in the major leagues. If I had the power to put him on waivers, I would do so to prove a point, but I imagine that, given his contract, there'd be like 4-5 teams who would NOT claim Duke on waivers given his current contract.

 

 

 

Thanks for qualifying it as "rookie," so that way you can eliminate Peavy, Sale, Liriano, Jones, Floyd, Thornton, Crain, Myers, and, oh, Will Ohman. The miracle workers for that team were Alex Rios and AJ Pierzynski, because had they posted their normal career numbers, that would have been a 78 win team.

 

---

 

I'd feel bad not ending this with an ALL HAIL DONALD COOPER

 

Thornton was done the moment Jim Thome touched him up in the 2nd half of 2010...even though he lived on until this day in the big leagues.

 

Forgot Jones, 3 rookies. Considering where he was drafted and his lack of success starting, that has to qualify as another success overall.

 

Crain is an example that supports the Don Cooper Theory of Excellence. (Brett Myers and Liriano do not).

 

And the fact that Jake Peavy could be rehabilitated through a once in a lifetime surgery and come out the other side AND get back Avi/Montas or Iglesias and not have to subsidize any of his salary was a minor Don miracle. (Except for when he faced the Tigers that year).

 

Myers and Ohman? More indictments of KW/Hahn.

 

HAIL HAHN!

[witesoxfan]

FIRE NOBODY.

 

Let's remain in Dante's 9th circle of hell forever!!!

 

Stuck perpetually between contention and getting Top 3-5 draft picks (well, we did manage that feat once, which isn't surprising with the 5th worst record in baseball for the last 3+ years).