Fire everyone

[Dick Allen]

Everyday I read when a player screws up, Robin is a bumbling fool...and all the rest. My question is, if the rosters were the same since he became the manager, how many more playoff appearances and in legitimate contention seasons would the White Sox have had if they hired someone else?

 

I read constantly how short of talent this current team is, and they do seem on paper to have more talent than most of the others under his leadership.

 

How many more wins and trophies does say Ricky Renteria running things translate into?

 

I like Robin, but if there really was a compelling case other than total desperation which never works anyway to remove him , I would be all for it. It just seems some like to play both sides of the fence. The players suck, the front office and coaching staff are totally incompetent, yet, if you read gamethreads, this team should win at least 120 games if managed correctly. Wouldn't that make the talent gathering people outstanding? Robin is a fool if he uses Scott Carroll with a 5 run lead in the 8th, then he is a fool for using his closer with a 6 run lead in the 9th because now you should never use your closer in a non closing situation. Good thing the Sox never tried to hire Maddon. He uses Rondon is non save appearances quite often. There are so many things like this. This player should never bat second, a week later, why isn't he batting second? On and on and on. Renteria, Maddon, Gardenhire, Alomar, take your pick. How many more wins and playoff appearances does it translate into?

 

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. When Tony LaRussa was fired, there weren't thousands of White Sox fans crying in their beer. In fact, most were probably toasting Hawk for doing it. Now Hawk is one of the biggest fools who ever lived, but LaRussa was fired in 1986, replaced by Fregosi who actually won a higher percentage of games that year. The total rebuild of 1987-1989 with really no chance to compete would have meant, had LaRussa stayed he would have had at least 4 years and 5 out of 6 after winning the division of horrible teams. Considering how people use Robin's W-L record against him, how would Tony have survived that?

 

Obviously this has been an awful stretch of baseball. But they still are .500, maybe for a few more hours, maybe for the rest of the season. It will get better.They aren't as good as 23-10, they aren't as bad as 6-19. It was interesting they showed about 5 or 6 teams that went through a similar bad stretch during a season and still won a WS. I wouldn't predict that, but, if Hahn gets another bat, some of this will turn around.

[LittleHurt05]

Robin Ventura = Tony La Russa

 

#HotTakesbyDickAllen

[Dick Allen]

Robin Ventura = Tony La Russa

 

#HotTakesbyDickAllen

 

Never said that. I do think he is similar to Joe Torre. Check out Torre's managerial record before he had top of the line rosters.

 

 

[caulfield12]

You're forgetting Cox, Torre, Leyland, etc.

 

Baseball is a business. It used to be results-oriented. Let's not act like the 2011/12 and 2015 and 2016 teams were completely lacking in talent or expectations. It's easy to say that after the fact, with hindsight.

 

We have had a losing record against all four AL Central teams since 2009. I can understand that with the Tigers and Detroit, but not with the Indians and a rebuilding Twins' organization as well. What I can't understand is the disparity in records head-to-head, and the fact we can almost never win key ALCD games in August and September (which goes back to the Guillen years, too).

 

They've changed almost all of the players other than Sale and Quintana from 4 years ago and are still making the same sorts of mistakes and suffering from the same issues that plagued the team every month except for April, 2016. Right now, that one month seems more like an anomaly than a sea-change or progression in Ventura's managerial ability.

 

We've also had the fifth worse record in the major leagues during his tenure, and almost all of the teams in the bottom 10-12 have changed managers/GM's at least once if not twice during that time.

 

What is it that the White Sox see in Robin Ventura that nobody else does?

 

In the end, it doesn't matter how much the organization believes in him if it's not backed up with results...with another 3rd or 4th place finish comes even less revenue to work with next season, and the downward cycle continues until there is no choice left but to trade Eaton/Sale/Q/Robertson and possibly Rodon.

 

I'm pretty sure very few White Sox fans at that point would continue to support the manager and GM that put them in that position in the first place. JR can do what he likes, it's his team after all, but cutting off your nose to spite your face probably isn't the hallmark of most good businessmen.

[Dick Allen]

You're forgetting Cox, Torre, Leyland, etc.

 

Baseball is a business. It used to be results-oriented. Let's not act like the 2011/12 and 2015 and 2016 teams were completely lacking in talent or expectations. It's easy to say that after the fact, with hindsight.

 

We have had a losing record against all four AL Central teams since 2009. I can understand that with the Tigers and Detroit, but not with the Indians and a rebuilding Twins' organization as well. What I can't understand is the disparity in records head-to-head, and the fact we can almost never win key ALCD games in August and September (which goes back to the Guillen years, too).

 

They've changed almost all of the players other than Sale and Quintana from 4 years ago and are still making the same sorts of mistakes and suffering from the same issues that plagued the team every month except for April, 2016. Right now, that one month seems more like an anomaly than a sea-change or progression in Ventura's managerial ability.

 

We've also had the fifth worse record in the major leagues during his tenure, and almost all of the teams in the bottom 10-12 have changed managers/GM's at least once if not twice during that time.

 

What is it that the White Sox see in Robin Ventura that nobody else does?

 

In the end, it doesn't matter how much the organization believes in him if it's not backed up with results...with another 3rd or 4th place finish comes even less revenue to work with next season, and the downward cycle continues until there is no choice left but to trade Eaton/Sale/Q/Robertson and possibly Rodon.

 

I'm pretty sure very few White Sox fans at that point would continue to support the manager and GM that put them in that position in the first place. JR can do what he likes, it's his team after all, but cutting off your nose to spite your face probably isn't the hallmark of most good businessmen.

How many more wins does another manager get? J

 

Joe Torre NY Mets

 

49-68

66-96

63-99

67-95

41-62

 

who would ever hire him after that? No other team would ever want him. Yet the next season he was hired by Atlanta. Lasted 3 years, fired, hired right away by 2St. Louis. Lasted 3 or 4 years, fired. Hired the very next season by the Yankees. NY press blasted the move. This guy is the baseball idiot of idiots. The rest is history.

 

 

This works with coaches as well. Leo Mazzone was the famed can't be topped pitching coach of the Atlanta Braves. He was a genius when he had Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux..he took the money and went to Baltimore with crappy pitchers, wound up out of work. Remember the Greg Walker, lift and pull crap on here? First off, he never preached lift and pull, but posters here were so enthralled with Rudy Jaramillo (who actually was a lift and pull guy) they wanted the Sox to replace Walker with whoever Jaramillo's assistant was. Rudy goes to the Cubs when they have crappy hitters, and all of a sudden he goes from guru to guy who doesn't belong in a major league dugout.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Dick Allen

[GreatScott82]

Never said that. I do think he is similar to Joe Torre. Check out Torre's managerial record before he had top of the line rosters.

So you are on the side of- it is not the manager, its is the General Manager/ Team President's fault for putting together a roster that simply cannot get it done?

 

After a major disappointing 2015 season, the only guy to get fired was Mark Parent. Who will it be this year after they finish 78-84? I'm guessing Bobby Thigpen and Todd Steverson. I cannot stand the lack of accountability this organization demonstrates annually. This team is indeed ran luck a country club. A bunch of friends hanging out (JR, KW, Hahn and Robin) having fun, win or lose it does not matter because they are still making money.

[Dick Allen]

So you are on the side of- it is not the manager, its is the General Manager/ Team President's fault for putting together a roster that simply cannot get it done?

 

After a major disappointing 2015 season, the only guy to get fired was Mark Parent. Who will it be this year after they finish 78-84? I'm guessing Bobby Thigpen and Todd Steverson. I cannot stand the lack of accountability this organization demonstrates annually. This team is indeed ran luck a country club. A bunch of friends hanging out (JR, KW, Hahn and Robin) having fun, win or lose it does not matter because they are still making money.

What I am asking is if they hired your dream manager for the 2012 season and the rosters were exactly the same, how much more winning does this team do?

 

For Hahn and KW or both to fire Robin now, they would be putting their necks on the line because if the team didn't suddenly improve, the arrow points at them. Would anyone blame them for not doing that? Robin is the scapegoat for this season if they fail. If they fire him and still fail, it goes up the ladder.

[caulfield12]

Maybe we should convince Ted Turner to buy the White Sox.

 

After all, he saw the talent in both Torre and Bobby Cox, two Hall of Fame managers. What percentage of managers make the HOF, after all? What are the odds of one manager picking two?

 

Of course, the White Sox had two in LaRussa and Leyland and didn't realize it, of course.

 

Just the way the cookie crumbles, I guess.

 

 

10) What did Ted Turner do after firing Bobby Cox in 1981 and replacing him with Joe Torre? a) Hired Cox as an anchor for CNN. b) Was so guilt-ridden, he invited Cox to the press conference announcing his dismissal. c) Gave Cox unlimited use of his yacht "Courageous." d) Told Cox he'll bring him back one day only if he enrolls in charm school.

 

B

 

15) What was a huge factor in convincing Ted Turner to hire Joe Torre as Braves manager in 1981? a) Torre was also a big Civil War buff. b) Rafael Ramirez insisted on it. c) Torre was well-spoken and media-polished. d) Torre's cable connections in New York City.

 

C

[GreatScott82]

What I am asking is if they hired your dream manager for the 2012 season and the rosters were exactly the same, how much more winning does this team do?

 

For Hahn and KW or both to fire Robin now, they would be putting their necks on the line because if the team didn't suddenly improve, the arrow points at them. Would anyone blame them for not doing that? Robin is the scapegoat for this season if they fail. If they fire him and still fail, it goes up the ladder.

If what you say is true, the whole retaining Robin to protect themselves thing, than JR needs to take matters into his own hands. How pathetic of a scenario this is if what you say is true.

[Texsox]

Ventura has had his opportunity. This offseason he should be replaced. It may only result in a couple three more wins but it is the accumulation of all of those small improvements that make the difference. I believe he could be a very good to great manager in the right position. This just isn't the right time nor position.

[Dick Allen]

I should have made the thread you're Rick Hahn, you want to fire Robin. You have to make your case to JR. JR is going to want some logic that says a guy like Rick Renteria will produce more wins. The Ron Washington line, that's how baseball go, won't work. Would you be willing to put your neck and job on the line that a guy like Renteria would translate into more wins? What's your ammo?

[Texsox]

I should have made the thread you're Rick Hahn, you want to fire Robin. You have to make your case to JR. JR is going to want some logic that says a guy like Rick Renteria will produce more wins. The Ron Washington line, that's how baseball go, won't work. Would you be willing to put your neck and job on the line that a guy like Renteria would translate into more wins? What's your ammo?

 

And how are you going to measure more wins? Based on this (temporary) slump that the team would have played out of anyways (no way to predict one way or another)? Based on year to date? Based on the hot start? There just isn't any objective evidence after the fact.

[Hatchetman]

For Hahn and KW or both to fire Robin now, they would be putting their necks on the line because if the team didn't suddenly improve, the arrow points at them. Would anyone blame them for not doing that? Robin is the scapegoat for this season if they fail. If they fire him and still fail, it goes up the ladder.

 

This is the truth. Ventura doesn't matter. "The buck stops" here is a phrase JR has never heard of I guess.

[Dunt]

yet, if you read gamethreads, this team should win at least 120 games if managed correctly.

 

You are the f***ing king of hyperbole.

[Panerista]

This is the truth. Ventura doesn't matter. "The buck stops" here is a phrase JR has never heard of I guess.

Not necessarily. For Hahn and KW to admit Robin was a mistake and replace him with a better manager is the most sensible thing IMHO. To leave Robin in charge and let this thing get driven into the ground is quitting on the season.

[Harry Chappas]

It is not about anything other than this team was riding high....stumbled.......and is now in a free fall.

 

I am not certain whose fault it is, I am not paid to figure it out.

 

The season essentially was over after the first series last season and a few years back a promising season ended in a freefall.

 

There is no direction for this team and it is only getting worse. Some nice pieces were added but the major work on signing and developing talent does not happen here and thus we are always a couple of pieces short.

 

Why is it that players under Robin Ventura can consistently freefall (See Eaton now) for a period of time or their career can just go into the tank (LaRoche and to an extent Dunn).

 

 

Ask yourself this, does any play ever exceed expectations under Robin Ventura.......

 

Does he get the most out of his roster.........

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Harry Chappas

[caulfield12]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/05/23/ric...with-white-sox/

Fluff piece, but makes me feel a bit better about Renteria and his ability to manage this club.

Edited June 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

And how are you going to measure more wins? Based on this (temporary) slump that the team would have played out of anyways (no way to predict one way or another)? Based on year to date? Based on the hot start? There just isn't any objective evidence after the fact.

I would measure it in contention down to the last days of the season. It worked when the Marlins fired Torborg and replaced him with Trader Jack, but they did leave out, the Marlins also called up Miguel Cabrera and Dontrell Willis at the same time. Would they have won if Torborg wasn't replaced? We will never know, but they more than likely would have improved.

[Soxfest]

Not 1 logical reason RV has a job. If the Sox were run like a real organization and not a country club.

[Dick Allen]

Not 1 logical reason RV has a job. If the Sox were run like a real organization and not a country club.

Yet no one has answered the question.

[Thad Bosley]

What's that old adage? "Managers are hired to be fired". I would wager that the vast majority of managers fired over the course of time were fired for far less failure than what Robin has racked up during his time here. So it's a no brainer at this point - he needs to go. Time for fresh blood!

[caulfield12]

Apparently having the fifth worst record in baseball during his tenure and losing records against the Twins, Indians, Royals and Tigers isn't good enough...is it really a "shocker" to both Hahn and KW that generally you should have a .500 record or above (within the division) in order to win the AL Central???

 

Collapses in September, 2012, the entire 2013 season, early 2015 and May, 2016 clearly aren't evidence enough. He's likely to go on and become a HoF manager, well, because other HoF managers at some point early in their careers also managed teams "lacking in talent." I put that in quotes because I'm not sure it's altogether fair to assert all these Sox teams have been talentless.

Edited June 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[Black_Jack29]

Ventura has had his opportunity. This offseason he should be replaced. It may only result in a couple three more wins but it is the accumulation of all of those small improvements that make the difference. I believe he could be a very good to great manager in the right position. This just isn't the right time nor position.

 

I don't know if it'll make a difference when the bullpen can't get anybody out anymore. That said, his contract expires after this season, so I have no problem with JR replacing him this winter.

 

[Dick Allen]

Apparently having the fifth worst record in baseball during his tenure and losing records against the Twins, Indians, Royals and Tigers isn't good enough...is it really a "shocker" to both Hahn and KW that generally you should have a .500 record or above (within the division) in order to win the AL Central???

 

Collapses in September, 2012, the entire 2013 season, early 2015 and May, 2016 clearly aren't evidence enough. He's likely to go on and become a HoF manager, well, because other HoF managers at some point early in their careers also managed teams "lacking in talent." I put that in quotes because I'm not sure it's altogether fair to assert all these Sox teams have been talentless.

Yet in another thread you claim Cooper is absolved from any blame due to lack of talent.

 

Using the criteria that seems to be in place by many on this board, there is not a manager alive who would have taken the job when Robin did, who should still be employed.

 

 

 

[Whisox05]

The million dollar question is what Manager could take this current team and start winning with it. Latos is pitching his way out of the rotation. The bullpen is throw a dart at the board to see who pitches cause no one is doing their job. You have a aging short stop and a utility player rotating a SS. You have a catcher who does better framing but can't hit and the other one who can't frame well but is slightly better hitter. You have a rotating dh of Shuck and Garcia with no better solution. When you lose players to injury there's no depth to back them up. You have one of you best players underperforming. This team has had hole for years not but have been patching it together to hopefully better performance. Don't have the minors to produce good position player for the major league team. Saladino is the only home grown player at the majors. They either have to trade to fill in the gaps at the major league roster or go dumpster diving at the free agency level cause they don't give out and lump of money to get the better players. Should robin go probably. Make a shack up to see if it awakens the player but it's not a guarantee fix. It starts at the top for accountability and goes down from there.