Fire everyone

[Thad Bosley]

The million dollar question is what Manager could take this current team and start winning with it. Latos is pitching his way out of the rotation. The bullpen is throw a dart at the board to see who pitches cause no one is doing their job. You have a aging short stop and a utility player rotating a SS. You have a catcher who does better framing but can't hit and the other one who can't frame well but is slightly better hitter. You have a rotating dh of Shuck and Garcia with no better solution. When you lose players to injury there's no depth to back them up. You have one of you best players underperforming. This team has had hole for years not but have been patching it together to hopefully better performance. Don't have the minors to produce good position player for the major league team. Saladino is the only home grown player at the majors. They either have to trade to fill in the gaps at the major league roster or go dumpster diving at the free agency level cause they don't give out and lump of money to get the better players. Should robin go probably. Make a shack up to see if it awakens the player but it's not a guarantee fix. It starts at the top for accountability and goes down from there.

You are absolutely correct. The angst over the current stretch of losing is misplaced. Ventura is merely playing the hand he's been dealt. He's not the one who, in an attempt to "upgrade" several positions that contributed to the league's worst offense last year, went dumpster diving last winter to do so. Rollins, Jackson, Avila, and even Navarro were the results of dumpster diving by the front office. And not to mention, but Ventura was originally going to have to trot out LaRoche again, too, only to then be forced the need to employ one Avi Garcia instead.

 

So my frustration at this point lies more with Hahn, Williams, and You-Know-Who more so than Ventura. At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, managers are hired to be fired, so I do think he needs to go at this point. But that is only curing a symptom rather than the true root cause of what continues to ail the White Sox.

[caulfield12]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...-story,amp.html

 

White Sox's hierarchy (here's a shocker!) still believes in this team...

[elrockinMT]

What I am asking is if they hired your dream manager for the 2012 season and the rosters were exactly the same, how much more winning does this team do?

 

For Hahn and KW or both to fire Robin now, they would be putting their necks on the line because if the team didn't suddenly improve, the arrow points at them. Would anyone blame them for not doing that? Robin is the scapegoat for this season if they fail. If they fire him and still fail, it goes up the ladder.

 

 

You are not going to get an answer because they can't tell you anything. What they can do is gripe and proclaim their gloom and doom anger at any player, coach or manager or team owner, who happens to make themselves a target for the day. I actually think some posters thrive on that behavior. I tend to look at the standings and see we are just 3 1/2 games behind at this point and management is trying to add pieces. I look forward to Shields start tonite. If he can sart out his Sox tenure with a win that will be a plus and might add a spark. There is plenty of baseball left this season. Look at KC with a six game losing streak itself. No one is going to run away with this division

[Iwritecode]

Maybe the question at this point isn't so much who can do better but can anyone else be any worse? Maybe it's making a change for the sake of making SOME sort of change but a new voice in the clubhouse could spark something.

[kitekrazy]

Everyday I read when a player screws up, Robin is a bumbling fool...and all the rest. My question is, if the rosters were the same since he became the manager, how many more playoff appearances and in legitimate contention seasons would the White Sox have had if they hired someone else?

 

I read constantly how short of talent this current team is, and they do seem on paper to have more talent than most of the others under his leadership.

 

How many more wins and trophies does say Ricky Renteria running things translate into?

 

I like Robin, but if there really was a compelling case other than total desperation which never works anyway to remove him , I would be all for it. It just seems some like to play both sides of the fence. The players suck, the front office and coaching staff are totally incompetent, yet, if you read gamethreads, this team should win at least 120 games if managed correctly. Wouldn't that make the talent gathering people outstanding? Robin is a fool if he uses Scott Carroll with a 5 run lead in the 8th, then he is a fool for using his closer with a 6 run lead in the 9th because now you should never use your closer in a non closing situation. Good thing the Sox never tried to hire Maddon. He uses Rondon is non save appearances quite often. There are so many things like this. This player should never bat second, a week later, why isn't he batting second? On and on and on. Renteria, Maddon, Gardenhire, Alomar, take your pick. How many more wins and playoff appearances does it translate into?

 

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. When Tony LaRussa was fired, there weren't thousands of White Sox fans crying in their beer. In fact, most were probably toasting Hawk for doing it. Now Hawk is one of the biggest fools who ever lived, but LaRussa was fired in 1986, replaced by Fregosi who actually won a higher percentage of games that year. The total rebuild of 1987-1989 with really no chance to compete would have meant, had LaRussa stayed he would have had at least 4 years and 5 out of 6 after winning the division of horrible teams. Considering how people use Robin's W-L record against him, how would Tony have survived that?

 

Obviously this has been an awful stretch of baseball. But they still are .500, maybe for a few more hours, maybe for the rest of the season. It will get better.They aren't as good as 23-10, they aren't as bad as 6-19. It was interesting they showed about 5 or 6 teams that went through a similar bad stretch during a season and still won a WS. I wouldn't predict that, but, if Hahn gets another bat, some of this will turn around.

 

LaRussa was not the legend until he became part of the Cardinals organization. They seem to do something right most of the time.

 

[caulfield12]

Then we should just close this thread.

 

Only "insiders" or beat writers or members of the team/front office can really offer an informed opinion here, so what's the point of talking about it?

 

We should just say "Robin Ventura is God" until he no longer holds the position, because that's what it amounts to.

 

 

The problem, though, is since all managers are at the very least...former minor league players (with major league affiliated teams), then only those people should be able to talk about managing, right?

 

Does a rudimentary knowledge of saber statistics mean we can all be scouts or make assessments on players or the draft this week?

 

According to all the defensive ratings available now, we don't even need the eye test or to casually watch the games, essentially.

So what is anyone actually qualified to discuss on this board?

Edited June 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[Black_Jack29]

Maybe the question at this point isn't so much who can do better but can anyone else be any worse? Maybe it's making a change for the sake of making SOME sort of change but a new voice in the clubhouse could spark something.

 

If they do it mid-season, it'll look like an obvious desperation move.

 

It seems to me that DFAing players who aren't performing (*cough* Rollins *cough*) is the best way to light a fire under their arses. It also sends the (correct) message that players are responsible for their play, not the guy who fills out the lineup card.

 

[Black_Jack29]

LaRussa was not the legend until he became part of the Cardinals organization. They seem to do something right most of the time.

 

You forget that LaRussa managed the A's in the late '80s and early '90s.

 

[Lip Man 1]

You're forgetting Cox, Torre, Leyland, etc.

 

Baseball is a business. It used to be results-oriented. Let's not act like the 2011/12 and 2015 and 2016 teams were completely lacking in talent or expectations. It's easy to say that after the fact, with hindsight.

 

We have had a losing record against all four AL Central teams since 2009. I can understand that with the Tigers and Detroit, but not with the Indians and a rebuilding Twins' organization as well. What I can't understand is the disparity in records head-to-head, and the fact we can almost never win key ALCD games in August and September (which goes back to the Guillen years, too).

 

They've changed almost all of the players other than Sale and Quintana from 4 years ago and are still making the same sorts of mistakes and suffering from the same issues that plagued the team every month except for April, 2016. Right now, that one month seems more like an anomaly than a sea-change or progression in Ventura's managerial ability.

 

We've also had the fifth worse record in the major leagues during his tenure, and almost all of the teams in the bottom 10-12 have changed managers/GM's at least once if not twice during that time.

 

What is it that the White Sox see in Robin Ventura that nobody else does?

 

In the end, it doesn't matter how much the organization believes in him if it's not backed up with results...with another 3rd or 4th place finish comes even less revenue to work with next season, and the downward cycle continues until there is no choice left but to trade Eaton/Sale/Q/Robertson and possibly Rodon.

 

I'm pretty sure very few White Sox fans at that point would continue to support the manager and GM that put them in that position in the first place. JR can do what he likes, it's his team after all, but cutting off your nose to spite your face probably isn't the hallmark of most good businessmen.

 

 

VERY well said. Kudos.

 

Mark

[kitekrazy]

You forget that LaRussa managed the A's in the late '80s and early '90s.

 

I did not. During that time there was rumblings of a manager that couldn't get it done in the post season.

 

[LVSoxFan]

As we enter another week of it's the players!/It's the manager! arguing, I keep flashing back to something on the 2005 World Series DVD.

 

In the beginning, as they're setting up the whole 88 years "curse" thing, somebody (I can't remember who) said "There wasn't any curse, just a lot of bad baseball teams."

 

I LOL'd at that for its truth. I think the reality here is that we've got the perfect storm: a lacking team AND a manager who's not up to it--even though everybody keeps arguing it's one or the other.

 

And when you look at it that way, whose doing is that? Yup, KW (with the approval of JR). I've said it before, I'll say it again and I've been saying it for years: as long as KW is running this team, expect more losing seasons. Even getting rid of him isn't a guarantee if JR's simply going to hire another yes-man.

 

But this problem starts at the top, people. I was shocked to look at our record against the central in just the Ventura era--not to put it on Ventura, but for senior management to not feel any sort of urgency, because if we can't even win the central, duh, we aren't going to the Series or anywhere else.

 

Now for my total arm-chair conspiracy theory: I read something by chance about White Sox attendance that startled me. I could never figure out how JR could keep fielding losers when it kills attendance and... doesn't that mean less money for him? What this thing said, if I read it right, was that certain taxes kick in when the Sox hit a minimum attendance for the season.

 

If they do NOT hit that minimum, there is no tax, and it's a substantial break. I'm sure somebody here can present this much better than me. So, in this scenario (if I'm correct), perhaps the reason JR's okay with the non-stop losing is that he has a financial incentive to not win--or not make a serious stab at it financially, instead coming up with these KW-engineered experiments that if they win, great--and if they fail, tax break!

 

Again, I could have misread that but usually when somebody keeps doing something that makes no sense, it's because they're making money doing it that way.

 

Even tossing that theory aside, though: this organization needs a Cubs/Hawks-like housecleaning. This season is going to be brutal. It already is. With no end in sight.

Edited June 8, 2016 by LVSoxFan

[Black_Jack29]

I did not. During that time there was rumblings of a manager that couldn't get it done in the post season.

 

Huh? By 1991, LaRussa had three pennants and a ring with the A's. He was recognized as a very capable manager well before he took the job in St. Louis.

 

[bmags]

As a person, I feel for Robin. He jumped in, tried. Good for him.

 

But, aside from being contrarian, I see no reason to pick this hill to die on. If he was not responsible for their failure, I doubt you can say he was responsible for success. If a baseball manager does not matter much, it should not matter much that you fire him.

 

In ordinary circumstances, that seems unfair. But there are only 30 of these jobs in the world, you are paid well, it's a great job. If he is not specifically making it better, why should they stick with him?

 

Will firing Robin actually surge us to contention. Probably not. Will it send us in a death spiral worse than the one he is healming? Probably not. Has he done enough to keep one of the 30 best jobs in the world? Probably not.

 

So fire him, move on. SHould have been done last year after Hahn told him to teach Micah to be better defending.

[Lip Man 1]

As we enter another week of it's the players!/It's the manager! arguing, I keep flashing back to something on the 2005 World Series DVD.

 

In the beginning, as they're setting up the whole 88 years "curse" thing, somebody (I can't remember who) said "There wasn't any curse, just a lot of bad baseball teams."

 

I LOL'd at that for its truth. I think the reality here is that we've got the perfect storm: a lacking team AND a manager who's not up to it--even though everybody keeps arguing it's one or the other.

 

And when you look at it that way, whose doing is that? Yup, KW (with the approval of JR). I've said it before, I'll say it again and I've been saying it for years: as long as KW is running this team, expect more losing seasons. Even getting rid of him isn't a guarantee if JR's simply going to hire another yes-man.

 

But this problem starts at the top, people. I was shocked to look at our record against the central in just the Ventura era--not to put it on Ventura, but for senior management to not feel any sort of urgency, because if we can't even win the central, duh, we aren't going to the Series or anywhere else.

 

Now for my total arm-chair conspiracy theory: I read something by chance about White Sox attendance that startled me. I could never figure out how JR could keep fielding losers when it kills attendance and... doesn't that mean less money for him? What this thing said, if I read it right, was that certain taxes kick in when the Sox hit a minimum attendance for the season.

 

If they do NOT hit that minimum, there is no tax, and it's a substantial break. I'm sure somebody here can present this much better than me. So, in this scenario (if I'm correct), perhaps the reason JR's okay with the non-stop losing is that he has a financial incentive to not win--or not make a serious stab at it financially, instead coming up with these KW-engineered experiments that if they win, great--and if they fail, tax break!

 

Again, I could have misread that but usually when somebody keeps doing something that makes no sense, it's because they're making money doing it that way.

 

Even tossing that theory aside, though: this organization needs a Cubs/Hawks-like housecleaning. This season is going to be brutal. It already is. With no end in sight.

 

You are correct on the stadium agreement. If the Sox fail to meet certain attendance figures certain clauses do kick in. But I think it refers to them having to pay rent or give funds to the Illinois Sports Stadium Authority or pay upkeep expenses.

 

The point is though, that in a way, the Sox do have an "incentive" financially to not draw a lot of fans (which is one thing they do VERY well!) Last summer the Tribune had a long and thorough story on all this.

 

Mark

Edited June 8, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[kitekrazy]

As we enter another week of it's the players!/It's the manager! arguing, I keep flashing back to something on the 2005 World Series DVD.

 

In the beginning, as they're setting up the whole 88 years "curse" thing, somebody (I can't remember who) said "There wasn't any curse, just a lot of bad baseball teams."

 

I LOL'd at that for its truth. I think the reality here is that we've got the perfect storm: a lacking team AND a manager who's not up to it--even though everybody keeps arguing it's one or the other.

 

And when you look at it that way, whose doing is that? Yup, KW (with the approval of JR). I've said it before, I'll say it again and I've been saying it for years: as long as KW is running this team, expect more losing seasons. Even getting rid of him isn't a guarantee if JR's simply going to hire another yes-man.

 

But this problem starts at the top, people. I was shocked to look at our record against the central in just the Ventura era--not to put it on Ventura, but for senior management to not feel any sort of urgency, because if we can't even win the central, duh, we aren't going to the Series or anywhere else.

 

Now for my total arm-chair conspiracy theory: I read something by chance about White Sox attendance that startled me. I could never figure out how JR could keep fielding losers when it kills attendance and... doesn't that mean less money for him? What this thing said, if I read it right, was that certain taxes kick in when the Sox hit a minimum attendance for the season.

 

If they do NOT hit that minimum, there is no tax, and it's a substantial break. I'm sure somebody here can present this much better than me. So, in this scenario (if I'm correct), perhaps the reason JR's okay with the non-stop losing is that he has a financial incentive to not win--or not make a serious stab at it financially, instead coming up with these KW-engineered experiments that if they win, great--and if they fail, tax break!

 

Again, I could have misread that but usually when somebody keeps doing something that makes no sense, it's because they're making money doing it that way.

 

Even tossing that theory aside, though: this organization needs a Cubs/Hawks-like housecleaning. This season is going to be brutal. It already is. With no end in sight.

 

Death has to take place for this to happen.

 

[Texsox]

Will they allow the next manager to bring in an entirely new coaching staff? Some of these guys have been around since Ozzie. Isn't it time to really clean house?

[GreatScott82]

Death has to take place for this to happen.

This is so depressing but it is likely true. From what I'm hearing, when JR passes, he told his family to sell the White Sox and hold on to the Chicago Bulls. FWIW. Apart of me really wants JR to win one more title before the Cubs get theirs, unfortunately the Cubs are much closer than we are. How did they get there? The new owner made some bold moves and brought in a GM who made the bold decision to tank for 4+ seasons in an attempt to replenish the team with young talent and right now they are enjoying the fruits of that hardship. It pains me to say, Reinsdorf does not have it in him to make these type of bold moves. I'm not saying-- let's lose for 4+ seasons to build up the farm. However, when your front office tries over and over again to patch up the team via trades, middle of the pack free agency signings and continuously neglects the farm, why should we even expect to see different results? This lightning in a bottle method needs to end. The problems of this team goes well beyond Robin (who i dislike as a manager). The problem of this team is a true lack of direction. In 2013-14 I saw the promise of a team actually acquiring young talent and they put a premium on draft picks. Suddenly 2015 hit and instead of maintaining the course- they decided to prematurely GO FOR IT! Which meant the farm system once again took a back seat and the evidence on the field demonstrated that they were not even near ready for that yet. By the look of it this year, even with the additions of Frazier, Shields and Lawrie-- they are still not even close to where they want to be. They will be lucky to finish .500 this year. How much longer will they try this 'retooling' crap? I guess we can question their methods until the cows come home and crave change as much as want, unfortunately nothing will change with this team until that time where the Riensdorf family does sell to new ownership.

[BaconOnAStick]

You want to talk about somebody who really should get fired, and what a lucrative firing it would be, its Chris Sale. The rest of the league still worships him but I've watched him all these years and while he's impressive you can tell he'll never win anything. His mental makeup is garbage, he freaks out when men get on base and the "anger pitches" is just unacceptable for a ML starter. When the Sox absolutely needed him to be the stopper he failed against Cleveland and now were in the death spiral.

 

Maybe that's an indictment of coaches who never reeled him in after his bulls*** antics, think the Vmart meltdown, but it doesn't matter...its the player he is. You get rid of him and his s***ty attitude, replace him with the all of the Red Sox or Dodgers top prospects, and I think this team becomes better overnight.

[captain54]

You are not going to get an answer because they can't tell you anything. What they can do is gripe and proclaim their gloom and doom anger at any player, coach or manager or team owner, who happens to make themselves a target for the day.

 

I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that the amount of angst, gloom and doom is in direct proportion to fans frustration as to how a Major Market MLB franchise, and a WS Title in 2005, was followed by 11 yrs of a brief playoff appearance. Despite the fact that a second tier of Wildcard was added.

 

I agree, you are correct there are people that just get off on b****ing. But point the finger at the fan, rather than the real sources of the problem...? .well, let's just say, the logic eludes me

Edited June 8, 2016 by captain54

[bmags]

While I think it's crazy to blame this on Sale, as I did in the winter, I'm fairly confidently leaning on the side of us being competitive faster by trading some core pieces. This whole "fielding a team with minimal depth and always erring on the side of seeing if one more marginal upgrade puts us over the top" thing doesn't seem to be working out.

[BaconOnAStick]

So if I'm reading this correctly, the point you are trying to get across is that trading Chris Sale....for prospects.....makes this team better overnight. The ML team gets better with Chris Sale off of it, and instead of Chris Sale, prospects are used in his place. Do I have that right?

I still count Swihart as a prospect (and he's someone the Sox would no doubt get in a Sale trade).

 

Sale is obviously a net positive for the Sox, but the extent of his contributions overhyped by metrics and fans who are wowed by him clowning players. If Sale leaves the Sox do gain something by getting rid of his tantrums on the mound, inane conspiracy theories and media rants. Now, getting rid of those things does not outweigh getting rid of a guy that more often than not dominates (except when the Sox really need him, then he usually looks kinda bad)...but it does make replacing him easier.

[Balta1701]

Will they allow the next manager to bring in an entirely new coaching staff? Some of these guys have been around since Ozzie. Isn't it time to really clean house?

Who has been around since that regime other than Cooper? (the answer would be yes btw, just don't know who else counts). Minor league people?

[captain54]

For Hahn and KW or both to fire Robin now, they would be putting their necks on the line because if the team didn't suddenly improve, the arrow points at them. Would anyone blame them for not doing that? Robin is the scapegoat for this season if they fail. If they fire him and still fail, it goes up the ladder.

 

I think this is one of the most accurate insights I have read on this forum…Nobody knows exactly what is going on behind the velvet curtain at 35th and Shields..For all we know, JR has sent out his axe collection for sharpening, preparing for multiple heads to roll…

 

Also keep in mind, KW made his splashy move in late 2011 hiring the anti-Ozzie, and proclaiming that he was absolutely the right man for the job…Hahn, in 2015, amid the angst and outcry for a new manager, firmly stated that the problem was absolutely not Ventura… Doesn't look too good when you can the guy that you went out on a limb to publicly endorse...

[Balta1701]

I think this is one of the most accurate insights I have read on this forum…Nobody knows exactly what is going on behind the velvet curtain at 35th and Shields..For all we know, JR has sent out his axe collection for sharpening, preparing for multiple heads to roll…

 

Also keep in mind, KW made his splashy move in late 2011 hiring the anti-Ozzie, and proclaiming that he was absolutely the right man for the job…Hahn, in 2015, amid the angst and outcry for a new manager, firmly stated that the problem was absolutely not Ventura… Doesn't look too good when you can the guy that you went out on a limb to publicly endorse...

There is absolutely no worse sign for a manager than having a GM give a public statement of support.

[Black_Jack29]

This is so depressing but it is likely true. From what I'm hearing, when JR passes, he told his family to sell the White Sox and hold on to the Chicago Bulls. FWIW. Apart of me really wants JR to win one more title before the Cubs get theirs, unfortunately the Cubs are much closer than we are. How did they get there? The new owner made some bold moves and brought in a GM who made the bold decision to tank for 4+ seasons in an attempt to replenish the team with young talent and right now they are enjoying the fruits of that hardship. It pains me to say, Reinsdorf does not have it in him to make these type of bold moves. I'm not saying-- let's lose for 4+ seasons to build up the farm. However, when your front office tries over and over again to patch up the team via trades, middle of the pack free agency signings and continuously neglects the farm, why should we even expect to see different results? This lightning in a bottle method needs to end. The problems of this team goes well beyond Robin (who i dislike as a manager). The problem of this team is a true lack of direction. In 2013-14 I saw the promise of a team actually acquiring young talent and they put a premium on draft picks. Suddenly 2015 hit and instead of maintaining the course- they decided to prematurely GO FOR IT! Which meant the farm system once again took a back seat and the evidence on the field demonstrated that they were not even near ready for that yet. By the look of it this year, even with the additions of Frazier, Shields and Lawrie-- they are still not even close to where they want to be. They will be lucky to finish .500 this year. How much longer will they try this 'retooling' crap? I guess we can question their methods until the cows come home and crave change as much as want, unfortunately nothing will change with this team until that time where the Riensdorf family does sell to new ownership.

 

The Sox either traded or let some really good players walk between 1995 and 1998. The organization suffered in the short-term, but were better off in the long-term (beginning in 2000). If the Sox are mired in mediocrity next July, I could see them trading a few key players for young, ML-ready talent and doing a proper rebuild around their better young players. Given this organization's past, I don't see them continuing on the current path indefinitely. If JR decides to sell the team in the foreseeable future, he'll definitely dump the higher-salaried players to maximize the organization's value.