White Sox will not win until their players produce

[Bob Sacamano]

You actually read his posts?

 

Nope. I see his posts and see how long they are that there is no way his keyboards can survive.

[Dick Allen]

As bad as this stretch has been, had the Sox just won one of the three they gave away in KC, and won one of the games they lost to Cleveland, they would be in first place

[caulfield12]

But every team in the division can make that same argument, right?

 

If the Tigers' bullpen hadn't completely imploded for a month and JD Martinez/Upton not gotten off to such terrible starts.

 

If KC hadn't already had to use ten rookies, and not just put them on the roster, but nearly all receiving regular playing time.

 

If Michael Brantley and Carrasco and Salazar hadn't gotten hurt, and Byrd and Almonte suspended for PEDs. If they hadn't lost 4/6 to the Twins when the other three teams had 0 or just 1 loss to them so far.

 

In the end, we're probably exactly where we belong to be.

[hogan873]

White Sox will not win until they outscore an opponent.

I did some statistic analysis and found that the amount of runs a team scores is significant in relation to the amount of runs the opposing team scores. Moreover, studies have shown that players (both offense and defense) are responsible for both scoring runs and preventing the other team from scoring runs.

 

Webster's defines a win as "a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor; a victory." Looking back at the significance of runs in a baseball game (a contest if you will), one could say with conviction that scoring more runs than the opposition could (and should) lead to a victory. Furthermore, the players being responsible for scoring the runs (and defending against opponent's runs) are significant cogs in the contest.

 

In short, yeah, they need to play better.

[GreenSox]

There's a pretty hot topic on the site about firing Robin Ventura today. And elsewhere there are the usual rantings about dumping Avisail Garcia.

 

It's pretty easy to support these ideas.

 

The problem is, those kinds of moves will not likely solve the Sox' ills. What is needed, instead, is for the "good" players on the Sox to play much better than they have.

 

Jose Abreu. 9 HR, .422 slugging percentage. 0.6 OWAR.

Todd Frazier. .205 BA. 19 HR, but only .464 slugging percentage.

Brett Lawrie. .397 slugging percentage, under .700 OPS.

Dioner Navarro. Hitting worse than Flowers did last year. Worst framer in baseball.

Carlos Rodon. 4.28 ERA, 1.5 WHIP.

James Shields. Somehow much worse than Danks or Latos or anyone else in his first two outings.

David Robertson. Blew 7-1 9th inning lead against the Royals.

Nate Jones. Blew 3 run lead the next night against the Royals.

 

Let's go down the list

Abreu, can and will improve

Frazier. Possible he could improve, but he had a horrid 2nd half last year, which was utterly ignored/glossed over in the pursuit of his greatness. Basically what you see is what you get with Frazier.

Lawrie - Not much room for improvement He's never been a good hitter. He's basically adequate. Rick Hahn preferred "Adequate" to "currently inadequate but with potential", a decided organizational philosophy, so he acquired him. Saladino is a better player than Lawrie (and Avi and Shuck) but the Sox are the Sox and Saladino is on the bench.**

Navarro - he can hit better; probably will. He's always sucked as a catcher.

Rodon - Rodon was rushed for no reason, other than Williams/Hahn howling at the moon last summer that "we're in it." He should improve, but another few months in Charlotte would have helped.

Robertson and JOnes are doing their jobs...they aren't elite and never have been.

 

So out of these, Abreu and Navarro will hit better; Frazier might; and you'll see steady improvement out of Rodon.

 

The .500 record is an accurate reflection of the talent level on this team.

 

**Entering 2015, Charlotte had a crowded infield of ML ready players. And yet Hann and Williams STILL went out and acquired 2 veteran utility infielders. Anyone who can't see the decided bias in this org toward veterans, regardless of skill level, has their head in the sand.

Edited June 17, 2016 by GreenSox

[LVSoxFan]

You bring up some very good points. The Sox the past decade always seem to be between "the rock and a hard place..." with no clear answers, no easy solutions.

 

They aren't willing to "blow it up" and start over yet they aren't willing to commit the monstrous money needed to get the top of the line free agents when they become available (which granted isn't often). They go "dumpster diving" a lot (with the usual results) and still don't have a quality minor league feeder system that can be used for reinforcements or to trade for established quality vets who aren't on the downside of 30.

 

Wish I had the answer but that's why the front office folks get paid what they do...to solve the problem.

 

Mark

 

Bingo. I've been saying this for years. You're exactly right: they don't have Yankees/Red Sox-like money to buy their way into the playoffs with big free agent signings, nor do they have a reliable minor league system to bring up home-grown talent.

 

So instead we get this Frankenstein-d approach where a bunch of guys you've never heard of are sprinkled in with very few A- or B-listers (Sale, Quintana, I'll even say Eaton but I'm biased and at FIRST you'd say Abreu) and... welcome to the last decade.

 

My totally non-scientific theory is that KW became convinced after 2005--and let's face it, that was an anomaly--that his "approach" (dumpster diving as you say, on the cheap, mixed with a few big signings) was genius and so was he. Problem is, it's never worked since. Not even close.

 

And Lord help us if we have to experience another mid-season signing of a past-his-prime free agent who will allegedly show we're "Going all-in this season." Even worse than that, last year we were sputtering but then when on enough of a win streak heading into the ASB that KW decided to leave all the pieces in place (Wannestadt reference!) including holding on to Shark--another big-money bust.

 

So here we are, for a decade, in that no-man's land between Major Market Team (with the spending that entails) and Small Market Team (without the talent that entails).

 

I mean FFS the Royals are World Series champions and it was their SECOND trip in two years to the big dance. The Royals. For most of the last decade (and beyond) the perpetual bottom-dwellers of the central. Now it's us.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

Let's go down the list

Abreu, can and will improve

Frazier. Possible he could improve, but he had a horrid 2nd half last year, which was utterly ignored/glossed over in the pursuit of his greatness. Basically what you see is what you get with Frazier.

Lawrie - Not much room for improvement He's never been a good hitter. He's basically adequate. Rick Hahn preferred "Adequate" to "currently inadequate but with potential", a decided organizational philosophy, so he acquired him. Saladino is a better player than Lawrie (and Avi and Shuck) but the Sox are the Sox and Saladino is on the bench.**

Navarro - he can hit better; probably will. He's always sucked as a catcher.

Rodon - Rodon was rushed for no reason, other than Williams/Hahn howling at the moon last summer that "we're in it." He should improve, but another few months in Charlotte would have helped.

Robertson and JOnes are doing their jobs...they aren't elite and never have been.

 

So out of these, Abreu and Navarro will hit better; Frazier might; and you'll see steady improvement out of Rodon.

 

The .500 record is an accurate reflection of the talent level on this team.

 

**Entering 2015, Charlotte had a crowded infield of ML ready players. And yet Hann and Williams STILL went out and acquired 2 veteran utility infielders. Anyone who can't see the decided bias in this org toward veterans, regardless of skill level, has their head in the sand.

 

Frazier has a .191 BABIP. You would think that a torrid stretch is coming.

Rodon would not have signed if he weren't in majors last year. This was the price of poker.

 

[southsider2k5]

Counterpoint: White Sox will not lose until they score fewer runs than their opponent during 9 inning game.

 

This just blew my mind.

[caulfield12]

Robertson is close to an elite reliever (but not quite, probably 6-8) who is paid Top 3-5.

 

The only thing you can see about Lawrie is this...career OPS of 732 and he's at 696 currently, which is underproducing (although he'd been in the high 700's for most of the season until slumping recently).

 

His first two years in TOR were very good, and then's been about a 2 WAR player on average the last 3, with that number looking close to a 1 projection this season.

 

Saladino's a career 629 OPS who just happens to be at 694 right now...or 02 points behind Lawrie. The funny thing is Saladino's a year older than Lawrie, but Lawrie's been in the majors for five plus years already.

 

Tyler projects to a slightly higher OPS this year because of his defensive ability, but it's also unclear that he can put up a 2 OPS playing everyday at 2B. Not to mention the fact that Saladino's minor league OPS is much lower than Lawrie's.

 

 

Overall, with the numbers Saladino and Sanchez put up offensively last year, it's understandable that Hahn would try to upgrade offensively if he could do it at little cost, which certainly defines the Lawrie deal. And it didn't preclude him from having Saladino or Sanchez still around if Lawrie continued to regress (which may or may not be happening right now).

 

Overall, it's hard to see a significant difference in how the Sox played this out....Lawrie in the past has been a 3-4 WAR player, projected to be around a 2 and Saladino...it was hard to imagine him even as a 2+ until the last month or so.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Frazier has a .191 BABIP. You would think that a torrid stretch is coming.

Rodon would not have signed if he weren't in majors last year. This was the price of poker.

 

 

Therein lies the problem...because of Boras, he probably came up at least 2 if not 3 months too soon.

 

Of course, it's easy to say that NOW, because he did finish the year quite strongly his final 10. Then again, some of those starts were against teams with AAAA rosters or playing out the string. Would have to look back closely at the game logs.

 

And, it's also easy to say in retrospect Beckham was rushed because of what happened after 2009...and, we can say the same thing about Tim Anderson if for some reason he never makes an All-Star team. There's no clear right or wrong way to treat prospects. Each one is individual and unique.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Carlos Rodon was not rushed.

[Iwritecode]

Bruce Levine/Jim Margalus

 

Meanwhile, in other media speculation, Jerry Reinsdorf shot down Bruce Levine's idea that the Sox might consider selling at the All-Star break:

 

As for the speculation in my story, Reinsdorf told me in his own instructive way that he had no plans for anything but a full-out attack on helping his front office find a way to win now. The meeting was brief and friendly. Knowing Reinsdorf for many years, I knew he was suggesting that although I wasn’t hurting anyone with my "panning for gold" speculation, rebooting and selling off wasn’t in the organization’s plans.

 

He's still talking about being a seller at the trade deadline, not about selling the team.

 

It doesn't matter either way because he's not the majority owner. He's just the face of the ownership group.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Iwritecode

[Steve9347]

White Sox will not win until they outscore an opponent.

White Sox will not outscore an opponent until they score more runs than them.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Steve9347

[shipps]

White Sox will not outscore an opponent until they score more runs than them.

 

Whitesox will not have a sell-out until the fans buy all the tickets.

[Quin]

White Sox will not play until 7:10 PM CT tonight

[southsider2k5]

And there seems to be a prevailing attitude that once a player appears in the major leagues, the development process is over. Rodon has shown he is capable of getting big league hitters out, so why wouldn't I want him continuing to improve his craft around a Major League park and coaches, instead of AAA?

 

Yeah, when you look at the process to get Quintana and Sale to where they are today, that sure didn't happen overnight.

[chisox802]

The White Sox will play Cleveland tonight. They will not win unless they score more runs than the Indians.

[Lip Man 1]

He's still talking about being a seller at the trade deadline, not about selling the team.

 

It doesn't matter either way because he's not the majority owner. He's just the face of the ownership group.

 

Actually if you are talking about JR he IS the majority owner. The Sox have so many investors that his share (speculated at up to 33%) puts him in the drivers seat.

 

AND this is more important in his contract he is allowed to run the day to day operations of the franchise without interference from the other board members.

 

Basically he has total complete control in all aspects.

 

I've heard that some other members of the board of directors do want to sell, in fact last year (I think) there was a long detailed story in the Tribune talking about the future of the franchise and quoted sources as confirming this. But...those people are powerless to force anything on JR because of his contract.

 

JR is an exceptionally smart and astute business man.

 

Mark

 

[southsider2k5]

Actually if you are talking about JR he IS the majority owner. The Sox have so many investors that his share (speculated at up to 33%) puts him in the drivers seat.

 

AND this is more important in his contract he is allowed to run the day to day operations of the franchise without interference from the other board members.

 

Basically he has total complete control in all aspects.

 

I've heard that some other members of the board of directors do want to sell, in fact last year (I think) there was a long detailed story in the Tribune talking about the future of the franchise and quoted sources as confirming this. But...those people are powerless to force anything on JR because of his contract.

 

JR is an exceptionally smart and astute business man.

 

Mark

 

Actually you are wrong. Majority shareholder is 50% +1.

 

[Dick Allen]

JR could own .01% of the team. He still has all the power.

 

It has nothing to do with percentage of the team owned. If JR dies, the executor of his will gets the same control.

[Iwritecode]

Actually if you are talking about JR he IS the majority owner. The Sox have so many investors that his share (speculated at up to 33%) puts him in the drivers seat.

 

AND this is more important in his contract he is allowed to run the day to day operations of the franchise without interference from the other board members.

 

Basically he has total complete control in all aspects.

 

I've heard that some other members of the board of directors do want to sell, in fact last year (I think) there was a long detailed story in the Tribune talking about the future of the franchise and quoted sources as confirming this. But...those people are powerless to force anything on JR because of his contract.

 

JR is an exceptionally smart and astute business man.

 

Mark

 

I found this article from 2013.

 

It says that the board numbered 10 members at the time. A few members said that he only owned 14 percent but JR says that number is low.

[Dick Allen]

But every team in the division can make that same argument, right?

 

If the Tigers' bullpen hadn't completely imploded for a month and JD Martinez/Upton not gotten off to such terrible starts.

 

If KC hadn't already had to use ten rookies, and not just put them on the roster, but nearly all receiving regular playing time.

 

If Michael Brantley and Carrasco and Salazar hadn't gotten hurt, and Byrd and Almonte suspended for PEDs. If they hadn't lost 4/6 to the Twins when the other three teams had 0 or just 1 loss to them so far.

 

In the end, we're probably exactly where we belong to be.

And if they can, why does that make the White Sox this awful team with an awful owner, awful front office, awful manager, awful players? Sigh, a team that will get just about nothing their next TV deal. A team that has to move to San Antonio to sell cheap tacos in the concession stands.

 

In other words, why do you praise all the other teams, and do nothing but say how awful and hopeless it is with the White Sox?

[Kyyle23]

Tex told me that the tacos at the Cell are better than San Antonio tacos*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*he didnt really tell me that

[Hatchetman]

Remember that taco stand in old Comiskey? I wonder what happened to those guys.

[Dick Allen]

Remember that taco stand in old Comiskey? I wonder what happened to those guys.

Under the LF stands. It was like going to a hole in the wall in Pilsen.