Blow It Up

[Bob Sacamano]

My son and I are going to the Sox game this Saturday. There is no way I am paying $40.00 per ticket. I can go on stubhub and get $7.00 and move to where we want.

 

That's how bad the Sox are. No one comes.

Why should they?

 

You can get $7 ticket at the ticket office.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I wonder if the Pirates could be convinced to bite on Sale. They have an excellent farm system and their pitching is struggling this year.

 

They probably would not trade Taillon but a package with Glasnow + would be tempting.

 

 

The Pirates have enough to get Chris Sale but the White Sox would need some ML talent in return. It can't be just prospects. I'd need Gregory Polanco, Tyler Glasnow, and probably Austin Meadows just to start. It's Chris f***ing Sale. It's a really hard trade to make.

[y2chae]

If the Sox were to put Sale on the market, there would be 4-5 teams that would be willing to give up what the Sox wanted- 2 MLB ready or near MLB ready highly touted prospects + 2 other elite prospects that could be 2-3 years away.

 

The Red Sox, Cubs, Rangers, Pirates, Dodgers all have enough talent in their systems. The Red Sox and Pirates are in desperate need of starting pitching. While the Dodgers and Rangers don't necessarily have a need in starting pitching, Sale would make their rotations elite.

[LVSoxFan]

My son and I are going to the Sox game this Saturday. There is no way I am paying $40.00 per ticket. I can go on stubhub and get $7.00 and move to where we want.

 

That's how bad the Sox are. No one comes.

Why should they?

 

We've declared that for the rest of the season we're going to find the best seats possible and sit different places every time... for the cheapest price possible.

 

I'm not going to pay any significant price to watch this anymore, but I do still enjoy the live game experience, even if we suck.

 

This weekend, we're enjoying first row UD down the 3B line for $10 each. Can't wait to see what $10-or-less seats we'll have for the next one.

 

That's about all it's worth now--and even that might be high.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

We've declared that for the rest of the season we're going to find the best seats possible and sit different places every time... for the cheapest price possible.

 

I'm not going to pay any significant price to watch this anymore, but I do still enjoy the live game experience, even if we suck.

 

This weekend, we're enjoying first row UD down the 3B line for $10 each. Can't wait to see what $10-or-less seats we'll have for the next one.

 

That's about all it's worth now--and even that might be high.

 

 

I bought OF bleachers last Wednesday for $18 per ticket and sat in row 5 behind Tigers dugout for entire game. Nobody cares.

[Dick Allen]

 

The Sox suck, they haven't made the playoffs in blah, blah, blah. Hahn and KW are horrible. They don't know what they are doing.

 

Here's how you fix it. Have the guys you don't think you know what they are doing trade away all their good players for prospects. That will work out perfectly. Another 10-20 years of daily whining.

 

All you need to know about prospects is to go back to the Matt Davidson thread. He was called the best available 3rd base prospect. A can't miss. Hahn was praised for his new core which included Davidson and Avi Garcia. A guy the main concern was to avoid the super 2. That cost Addison Reed. A loss, but not a Chris Sale, Q type loss.

 

Keep the good players. Draft better. Sign foreign free agents. Develop better. Learn how to make decent trades. Blow it up is not wise.

[bmags]

The Sox suck, they haven't made the playoffs in blah, blah, blah. Hahn and KW are horrible. They don't know what they are doing.

 

Here's how you fix it. Have the guys you don't think you know what they are doing trade away all their good players for prospects. That will work out perfectly. Another 10-20 years of daily whining.

 

All you need to know about prospects is to go back to the Matt Davidson thread. He was called the best available 3rd base prospect. A can't miss. Hahn was praised for his new core which included Davidson and Avi Garcia. A guy the main concern was to avoid the super 2. That cost Addison Reed. A loss, but not a Chris Sale, Q type loss.

 

Keep the good players. Draft better. Sign foreign free agents. Develop better. Learn how to make decent trades. Blow it up is not wise.

 

Yeah, he was a good prospect, failed. That's the problem with trying to do a rebuild where you rely on every piece working out. Part of the trading away our talent that likely won't be good when we actually make the playoffs is to get a LOT of talent, so you can handle a davidson not working out.

 

But that obviously doesn't fit your reflexive anti-strawman arguments. DA, you know this front office has failed. The people pointing it out aren't wrong. We have traded more major league talent than we've brought in and are basically the same team. There is no great cavalry coming up in the next two years to plug our gaps. At some point you have to weigh what is faster to get to the playoffs, acquiring a bunch of young pieces and let them develop 2 yeras before supplementing them with ML pieces, or dumpster diving for vets after you've alreayd maxed out your budget because your core is so good that it makes you look like your continued fourth and fifth place finishes are a fluke.

[Hatchetman]

Davidson was ranked the 80th best prospect in MLB in 2014. Nice, but no "can't miss" type.

[CB2.0]

Yeah, he was a good prospect, failed. That's the problem with trying to do a rebuild where you rely on every piece working out. Part of the trading away our talent that likely won't be good when we actually make the playoffs is to get a LOT of talent, so you can handle a davidson not working out.

 

But that obviously doesn't fit your reflexive anti-strawman arguments. DA, you know this front office has failed. The people pointing it out aren't wrong. We have traded more major league talent than we've brought in and are basically the same team. There is no great cavalry coming up in the next two years to plug our gaps. At some point you have to weigh what is faster to get to the playoffs, acquiring a bunch of young pieces and let them develop 2 yeras before supplementing them with ML pieces, or dumpster diving for vets after you've alreayd maxed out your budget because your core is so good that it makes you look like your continued fourth and fifth place finishes are a fluke.

 

I love this post - particularly the bolded.

 

Add to that - You have 2 ELITE VALUE players in Sale and Quintana. A competent FO should be able to bring in an absolute haul from just those two, and they need to BECAUSE of what bmags is saying.

 

The Sox are out of bullets. There is nothing on the farm and there is no way they are going to fill all the holes they have to take advantage of this good core. It is what it is, but it could be worse by not having these 2 assets. It's time to make the wise decision and right the ship.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, he was a good prospect, failed. That's the problem with trying to do a rebuild where you rely on every piece working out. Part of the trading away our talent that likely won't be good when we actually make the playoffs is to get a LOT of talent, so you can handle a davidson not working out.

 

But that obviously doesn't fit your reflexive anti-strawman arguments. DA, you know this front office has failed. The people pointing it out aren't wrong. We have traded more major league talent than we've brought in and are basically the same team. There is no great cavalry coming up in the next two years to plug our gaps. At some point you have to weigh what is faster to get to the playoffs, acquiring a bunch of young pieces and let them develop 2 yeras before supplementing them with ML pieces, or dumpster diving for vets after you've alreayd maxed out your budget because your core is so good that it makes you look like your continued fourth and fifth place finishes are a fluke.

But if they have failed, giving them a project where failure is quite likely MAKES NO SENSE. Rebuilds fail more than not. There have been exceptions, but not many, and if people really want the Sox to be like the Cubs, 35k people have to show up to games when they are losing 95 plus for 4 or 5 years in an row.

[Dick Allen]

Davidson was ranked the 80th best prospect in MLB in 2014. Nice, but no "can't miss" type.

The Soxtalk scouts were very, very impressed. There was one poster, not Caulfield, who posts almost every gamethread how bad Hahn is at his job, and how bad everyone else is, who loved this trade. Davidson was the man.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Except Davidson and Garcia were not "can't miss" guys. They were in the 70-100 range (I just looked up Davidson, he was #88 and peaked at #72)...but not Top 50 talents like Rodon/Anderson/Fulmer (borderline).

 

Avi Garcia was #74.

 

Jose Iglesias was the #9 prospect JUST for the Red Sox in 2013.

 

Now who would you take out of all three of those players, AS OF TODAY?

 

 

 

The White Sox occasionally have been right about prospects or guys with less than one year, like Quentin and Eaton. More often than not, they've missed by a country mile, whether it's Tyler Flowers, Nestor Molina, Zach Stewart, Avi or Matt Davidson. The Swisher trades, for example. Trading Gio Gonzalez twice. Mark Teahen. Jeff Keppinger. The list is too long to go through over and over again.

 

A good GM, they say, is right about 60% of the time. Hahn has been right about 30-35% of the time. He's had some notable successes, but not nearly enough to counterbalance his biggest failures.

 

 

 

[bmags]

But if they have failed, giving them a project where failure is quite likely MAKES NO SENSE. Rebuilds fail more than not. There have been exceptions, but not many, and if people really want the Sox to be like the Cubs, 35k people have to show up to games when they are losing 95 plus for 4 or 5 years in an row.

 

Great, I can't wait for Dick Allen's own well thought out personal opinion on the future of the franchise. When that comes it will be a first.

 

I don't even know who "They" is in your post, I"m not advocating KW/Hahn get a second crack at a rebuild they half-assed nad wasted 3 years on. You don't need to trade every good player, but there is no way in my eyes we are closer to the playoffs by keeping all of our players nad trying to "add-on" with zero budget and prospects, then unloading some value pieces to start to come up with Anderson and hopefully Collins, Burdi, Fulmer, Adams and whoever else we get. This team is razor thin, not that talented, and broke. Seems so much more promising than rebuilding.

[Dick Allen]

Except Davidson and Garcia were not "can't miss" guys. They were in the 70-100 range (I just looked up Davidson, he was #88 and peaked at #72)...but not Top 50 talents like Rodon/Anderson/Fulmer (borderline).

 

Avi Garcia was #74.

 

Jose Iglesias was the #9 prospect JUST for the Red Sox in 2013.

 

Now who would you take out of all three of those players, AS OF TODAY?

 

 

 

The White Sox occasionally have been right about prospects or guys with less than one year, like Quentin and Eaton. More often than not, they've missed by a country mile, whether it's Tyler Flowers, Nestor Molina, Zach Stewart, Avi or Matt Davidson. The Swisher trades, for example. Trading Gio Gonzalez twice. Mark Teahen. Jeff Keppinger. The list is too long to go through over and over again.

 

A good GM, they say, is right about 60% of the time. Hahn has been right about 30-35% of the time. He's had some notable successes, but not nearly enough to counterbalance his biggest failures.

I posted BPs top 20 prospects from 2010 on here yesterday. There are some good players on it, but at best a .500 team. Being ranked the best farm system and actually being the best farm system are 2 very different things. Top prospects fail all the time. Find the list. There are a couple of stars, and if you had BP's top 20 all at once you would easily be ranked the best farm system in baseball, maybe of all time.

[Dick Allen]

Great, I can't wait for Dick Allen's own well thought out personal opinion on the future of the franchise. When that comes it will be a first.

 

I don't even know who "They" is in your post, I"m not advocating KW/Hahn get a second crack at a rebuild they half-assed nad wasted 3 years on. You don't need to trade every good player, but there is no way in my eyes we are closer to the playoffs by keeping all of our players nad trying to "add-on" with zero budget and prospects, then unloading some value pieces to start to come up with Anderson and hopefully Collins, Burdi, Fulmer, Adams and whoever else we get. This team is razor thin, not that talented, and broke. Seems so much more promising than rebuilding.

A first, LMAO. I just said draft and develop players better. Don't be scared to blow through the international spending, sign a free agent here and there.

 

It's a lot better option than having someone you don't think understands the game and can't identify talent trading away any talent on the roster.

 

But maybe you are part of the group of Sox fans that actually prefers losing.

 

If they are broke, the rebuild will look more like the Royals and Pirates, that takes 20-30 years.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

The other problem is you have to be able to provide at least replacement level or "somewhat" capable minor leaguers in case of injuries or non-performance.

 

Let's forget the Andersons, Rodons and Fulmers for a moment.

 

One of the single biggest issues with this franchise is just having someone who can step in and not put up a 500ish OPS and a negative WAR. The Jason Coatses/Carlos Sanchezes/Saladinos/Shucks/Sands of the world.

 

Due to our lack of these guys developing in the minors....we end up with Albers/Navarro/Avila/Latos/Rollins/Gonzalez instead.

 

It's no wonder that teams like the Indians with smaller budgets are kicking our butts. They're just more efficient in their spending/scouting/talent evaluation. Same with KC.

Edited June 20, 2016 by caulfield12

[bmags]

A first, LMAO. I just said draft and develop players better. Don't be scared to blow through the international spending, sign a free agent here and there.

 

It's a lot better option than having someone you don't think understands the game and can't identify talent trading away any talent on the roster.

 

But maybe you are part of the group of Sox fans that actually prefers losing.

 

If they are broke, the rebuild will look more like the Royals and Pirates, that takes 20-30 years.

 

Pretty sure people don't want Hahn/KW in charge of rebuild, as has been stated. But, I'm sure anyone that advocates firing hahn is an idiot, because everyone knows that some teams have fired their GM and gotten WORSE, so we should definitely never do any action. There is a whole encyclopedia of times where teams tried and failed so, too risky. We should deifnitely just wait for a draft that won't affect the team for 3 years to add on to our nice fore of 34 year old star players. Much safer.

 

Look at how great the winning we are experiencing is.Rebuilds feature so much losing, the sox winning ways have really been much more fun.

[LittleHurt05]

Prospects break your heart. I get BP every year and keep it under my bed. Here are the top 20 prospects according to them in 2010:

Strasburg

Heyward

Naftali Perez

Jesus Montero

Stanton

Pedro Alvarez

Desmond Jennings

Carlos Santana

Buster Posey

Chris Carter

Dustin Ackley

Jeremy Hellickson

Ryan Westmoreland

Martin PereZ

Kyle Drabek

Justin Smoak

Brian Matusz

Escobar

Michael Taylor

Madison Bumgarner

 

 

That is baseballs top 20 6 years ago. Does that look like a roster that should contend year after year?

 

I'd say so, that's a pretty good core to start with. Add in a couple free agents and that's a WS contender.

 

1. Bumgarner

2. Strasburg

3. Martin perez

4. Hellickson

 

C Posey

1B Smoak

OF Stanton

OF Heyward

OF D. Jennings

DH C. Santana

 

[Dick Allen]

The other problem is you have to be able to provide at least replacement level or "somewhat" capable minor leaguers in case of injuries or non-performance.

 

Let's forget the Andersons, Rodons and Fulmers for a moment.

 

One of the single biggest issues with this franchise is just having someone who can step in and not put up a 500ish OPS and a negative WAR. The Jason Coatses/Carlos Sanchezes/Saladinos/Shucks/Sands of the world.

 

Due to our lack of these guys developing in the minors....we end up with Albers/Navarro/Avila/Latos/Rollins/Gonzalez instead.

It's no wonder that teams like the Indians with smaller budgets are kicking our butts. They're just more efficient in their spending/scouting/talent evaluation. Same with KC.

 

Says the guy who wanted the Sox to pay Latos and Parra a total of $18 million in 2016.

[Dick Allen]

I'd say so, that's a pretty good core to start with. Add in a couple free agents and that's a WS contender.

 

1. Bumgarner

2. Strasburg

3. Martin perez

4. Hellickson

 

C Posey

1B Smoak

OF Stanton

OF Heyward

OF D. Jennings

DH C. Santana

Not really and since it was 6 years ago, you probably would have had to trade a few of these guys away for prospects.

[caulfield12]

[/b]

 

Says the guy who wanted the Sox to pay Latos and Parra a total of $18 million in 2016.

 

 

I'll take Desmond, Latos and Parra.

 

Your GM wanted to pay James Shields $27 million.

 

 

Btw, all three of those guys combined are still costing less than James Shields.

 

You can keep your Gordon Beckham and Ubaldo Jimenez, though.

 

 

I've also noticed you haven't said a single thing recently about Jeff Banister being a good manager these days, have you? Do you want me to bring back all those threads from the dead?

 

How did that team go from terrible two years ago to the best team in baseball today, after the Cubs? Obviously, it had nothing to do with replacing Ron Washington and bringing in someone more capable.

 

Of course, I never had any hope in the first place that the White Sox might actually look outside their organization for a coach/manager.

Edited June 20, 2016 by caulfield12

[he gone.]

I bought OF bleachers last Wednesday for $18 per ticket and sat in row 5 behind Tigers dugout for entire game. Nobody cares.

 

 

Ah, so I've bought partial season tickets for a few years now. Usually 7 game package which equates to 1 game per month - which is what I do anyways.

One year I went all out - 2010 - and bought 5th row behind the dugout with stadium club - $75/ ticket for about a dozen games. After that I realized it's stupid to get season tickets....

 

However after a sweep of the Twins to bring us to 23-10 I started running the math -- I go, okay, well if we play .500 ball we'll have 90 wins or whatever. this division isn't going to be a runaway as nobody is that great.

 

I thought at the very least they'd be in the thick of it for the remainder of the year - so I did it, I bought 20 game package -- all the wknd games left for the year.. since then they are what? 10-26?

 

Moral of the story -- NEVER EVER BUY SEASON TICKETS.

I've always done what you've done - buy a seat anywhere for $8 and just sit somewhere new each inning and then about the 6th or 7th just move down to 3rd or 4th row behind the plate or dugout. That is the way to do it.

 

That being said if anybody wants a Saturday or Sunday ticket, Section 102, Row 8 for below face value for the rest of the year just let me know.

[hogan873]

This team shouldn't be sucking as bad as they are right now. There's too much talent, and things are not going their way right now. However, this team is not nearly as good as they seemed to be out of the gate. Everything was going right for the first month. If no changes were made, and things normalized, I would think this team is a 78-82 win team. That's not good enough to make the post season.

 

If the Sox had played consistently all season and had the same record as they do now, I'm not sure we'd be as doom and gloom. We'd probably be looking at things a little more objectively. 5.5 games out of first is not terrible, but it looks a lot worse because they were 2.5 games out on Friday, and they had a chance to make some ground. That, coupled with the poor performance overall since the end of April, makes things seem pretty bad.

 

After this weekend, I'm leaning more toward wanting to see a rebuild. As many other shave posted, the Sox could get so much for Sale and Quintana and even some additional talent for guys like Melky, Frazier, Robertson, etc. If the team is going to suck, at least have them suck for a reason as they build for the future.

 

I just don't see them doing it, though. I think if this team sticks around 5-6 games out for a while they will try to add in order to improve. But I just don't have a lot of faith in their ability to find that impact improvement.

[bmags]

What if we do 2011? Look how many terrible players on that list. How does one ever compete with prospects?

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...11/2611316.html

[caulfield12]

Ah, so I've bought partial season tickets for a few years now. Usually 7 game package which equates to 1 game per month - which is what I do anyways.

One year I went all out - 2010 - and bought 5th row behind the dugout with stadium club - $75/ ticket for about a dozen games. After that I realized it's stupid to get season tickets....

 

However after a sweep of the Twins to bring us to 23-10 I started running the math -- I go, okay, well if we play .500 ball we'll have 90 wins or whatever. this division isn't going to be a runaway as nobody is that great.

 

I thought at the very least they'd be in the thick of it for the remainder of the year - so I did it, I bought 20 game package -- all the wknd games left for the year.. since then they are what? 10-26?

 

Moral of the story -- NEVER EVER BUY SEASON TICKETS.

I've always done what you've done - buy a seat anywhere for $8 and just sit somewhere new each inning and then about the 6th or 7th just move down to 3rd or 4th row behind the plate or dugout. That is the way to do it.

 

That being said if anybody wants a Saturday or Sunday ticket, Section 102, Row 8 for below face value for the rest of the year just let me know.

 

 

I would be really impressed with JR if he sent out a letter expressing his own personal disappointment and 1) offering the equivalent amount purchased since the end of April/early may towards an equal amount of complimentary 2017 tickets OR 2) offering a full refund for the remaining 2016 tickets purchased as a show of good faith that eventually the front office will get something right.

 

Of course, now that the fans have been "suckered" into buying those additional 100-150,000 tickets, no such tender/offer will be forthcoming.

 

Which means that it will be suicide selling season tickets for 2017 if this trend continues. All the fans will be waiting until at least June/July of 2017 since not even the 2nd best start in baseball guarantees much of anything for this franchise.