Dick Allen Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:11 AM) Pretty sure people don't want Hahn/KW in charge of rebuild, as has been stated. But, I'm sure anyone that advocates firing hahn is an idiot, because everyone knows that some teams have fired their GM and gotten WORSE, so we should definitely never do any action. There is a whole encyclopedia of times where teams tried and failed so, too risky. We should deifnitely just wait for a draft that won't affect the team for 3 years to add on to our nice fore of 34 year old star players. Much safer. Look at how great the winning we are experiencing is.Rebuilds feature so much losing, the sox winning ways have really been much more fun. Is Hahn an idiot or not? It seems every bad idea was KW's and any good one was Hahn's. Their philosophies are most likely a lot more similar than anyone who thinks every bad idea is KW's wants to believe. But they are the guys who are going to be making the decisions. So if you think either is incapable, having them trade players like Sale and Q and Abreu is insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:31 AM) I would be really impressed with JR if he sent out a letter expressing his own personal disappointment and 1) offering the equivalent amount purchased since the end of April/early may towards an equal amount of complimentary 2017 tickets OR 2) offering a full refund for the remaining 2016 tickets purchased as a show of good faith that eventually the front office will get something right. Of course, now that the fans have been "suckered" into buying those additional 100-150,000 tickets, no such tender/offer will be forthcoming. Which means that it will be suicide selling season tickets for 2017 if this trend continues. All the fans will be waiting until at least June/July of 2017 since not even the 2nd best start in baseball guarantees much of anything for this franchise. LMAO. Yeah this team will be in a .300 winning pct slump the rest of the year. They are 3 under .500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:36 AM) Is Hahn an idiot or not? It seems every bad idea was KW's and any good one was Hahn's. Their philosophies are most likely a lot more similar than anyone who thinks every bad idea is KW's wants to believe. But they are the guys who are going to be making the decisions. So if you think either is incapable, having them trade players like Sale and Q and Abreu is insane. If your argument is that Hahn/KW should not be the ones doing the rebuild, I agree. They should both be fired for their Major League roster plan this year. But trading away some of our more valuable assets before they are not valuable anymore when we aren't going to win anyway is not a bad strategy just because the Royals were bad for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:42 AM) If your argument is that Hahn/KW should not be the ones doing the rebuild, I agree. They should both be fired for their Major League roster plan this year. But trading away some of our more valuable assets before they are not valuable anymore when we aren't going to win anyway is not a bad strategy just because the Royals were bad for a long time. They are not going to be fired. Still want to do a total rebuild? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 That's ridiculous to say they won't be fired. If this freefall continues, and Shields goes on like this, Hahn's seat will be very hot after asking to DFA Danks in order to acquire possibly the worst starter that has ever played baseball, with a contract we have to hope gets laroched. Add to that Year 4 of a rebuild going nowhere. Everything has its limits. Wasting JR's money is a quick way to test them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:48 AM) That's ridiculous to say they won't be fired. If this freefall continues, and Shields goes on like this, Hahn's seat will be very hot after asking to DFA Danks in order to acquire possibly the worst starter that has ever played baseball, with a contract we have to hope gets laroched. Add to that Year 4 of a rebuild going nowhere. Everything has its limits. Wasting JR's money is a quick way to test them. They let Danks go way before that, and JR was part of the acquire Shields decision. He wasn't talked into it. They aren't getting fired, and even if Hahn was, KW wouldn't. Would you want him trading for prospects? "Our owner had a little concern with that outing, too. It wasn't a fun conversation to have," a smiling Hahn said. "He pointed out the line. He wanted to make sure we were aware of it, and I assured him we were aware of it. "Ultimately, he understood the track record of this player and how he fits in going forward. I've harped on this, but we've looked for an extended period of time. But certainly this last offseason, trying to add guys who fit into that clubhouse, that have a certain type of character, a certain type of makeup that helps not only focus on the matter at hand and competes, but also makes the guys around them better. James is another example of that type of makeup. Jerry [Reinsdorf] appreciated the entirety of the player beyond just that one game." Edited June 20, 2016 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Liefer Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) I always read and never comment (for christ sake my user name is Jeff Liefer) BUT... I played a little minor league ball, and I've seen teams that start fast and I've seen teams that start slow and both of which I've seen in college and minors and MLB that come on and win in the playoffs... This is not that team... however it could be. There is still a core that can win, albeit a weak core, and all of you know its time is limited. The guys I like to add to said core (Eaton/Abreu/Frazier/Sale/Q/Rodon/Robertson/Jones) are: Rich Hill, Drew Pomeranz (I would've paid up for him over the "proven" Shields), Danny Valencia (as an OF/DH), Jay Bruce (hated him, now he's consistent enough to like), Carlos Gonzalez (the heat up is coming and it will be huge), Adam Duvall (really like him, future looks bright... Trumbo like power), Freddie Freaking Freeman (this is a true 1B that could benefit from a move to a better offense ours at least has some protection for him), Christian Bethancourt (only found one article about the added leg kick this off-season but in limited time he has been amazing and I don't understand why the Padres don't have him splitting time with Norris more), any of the Yanks big three RP, Zack Wheeler (though I just saw he is not for trade)... Rodon seems to finally be ready. Averaged 94.5 MPH on the fastball and had 14.1% swinging strikes against Cleveland. That is ELITE. Kershaw is averaging about 93 MPH and 16% swinging strikes for the whole season just for reference. IF we have more of that Carlos, we may already have a great 1-2-3. Anyway, it's up to the gods whether that will happen or not. I have no faith in Hahn. Everyone wants to fire Robin, well no one is perfect. How about fire Hahn first for giving Robin Jimmy Rollins as his opening day SS? Or Avisail Garcia at DH? Let's be realistic... this team should've offered Fowler a multi-year contract. Anyone with eyes could see this guy is one of those late bloomers who used adjustments to become above average in 2015. He is now approaching elite status as a table setter. I still think the Cubs bombed with Heyward (but that's another topic...). One last thought, was hearing we may trade Frazier on MLB network ala Morosi this morning. Big mistake. My hitting was much like Frazier in college and before I eventually was released. Power hitters go through prolonged droughts. It's worth it if we're going to compete to let him get hot again. He can carry our team in the later months. Giving him days off here and there in a slump is like missing out on a big pay day in the stock market. He could've had a huge power day at the plate. They come out of nowhere. I never think guys like him need a "day off"... They should be there every day with consistent contact hitters to bail him out. We need more Eaton's and less Shuck's when it comes to that. Anyway, just my thoughts. If none of those objectives (offense/SP/pen) are achieved, this team is doomed and a massive amount of talent needs to be brought in to save the squad. EDIT: Also, am I the only one who vomits when they see Melky hitting 4? I agree that Frazier is true 5-7 hitter on a good team, but Melky is an 8-9-or 2... Other edit: Forgot to add I'm working as a scout now for another squad and I should never post here again that I am still a Sox fan :) =) Hang in there boys... we got a great fan base Edited June 20, 2016 by Jeff Liefer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:08 AM) The other problem is you have to be able to provide at least replacement level or "somewhat" capable minor leaguers in case of injuries or non-performance. Let's forget the Andersons, Rodons and Fulmers for a moment. One of the single biggest issues with this franchise is just having someone who can step in and not put up a 500ish OPS and a negative WAR. The Jason Coatses/Carlos Sanchezes/Saladinos/Shucks/Sands of the world. Due to our lack of these guys developing in the minors....we end up with Albers/Navarro/Avila/Latos/Rollins/Gonzalez instead. It's no wonder that teams like the Indians with smaller budgets are kicking our butts. They're just more efficient in their spending/scouting/talent evaluation. Same with KC. Another great explanation of the resounding gong "show me where this organization is capable of scouting and developing talent". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:19 AM) Another great explanation of the resounding gong "show me where this organization is capable of scouting and developing talent". That's what I am trying to point out. You can't say the team is incapable of scouting and developing talent, and want the team to trade any talent it does have away for people who need to be scouted and developed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Jeff Liefer - please drop by when you can. anyone who played minor league ball knows a hell of a lot more than most of us. maybe change your name and go incognito. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjm676 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 If they blow it up, how can anyone trust the FO to actually get decent prospects? They'll probably end up with a bunch of Avi Garcias again. I hope Sale and Q get traded, because I want to see how they perform in the playoffs, on the big stage, with a packed stadium. They deserve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:50 AM) They let Danks go way before that, and JR was part of the acquire Shields decision. He wasn't talked into it. They aren't getting fired, and even if Hahn was, KW wouldn't. Would you want him trading for prospects? "Our owner had a little concern with that outing, too. It wasn't a fun conversation to have," a smiling Hahn said. "He pointed out the line. He wanted to make sure we were aware of it, and I assured him we were aware of it. "Ultimately, he understood the track record of this player and how he fits in going forward. I've harped on this, but we've looked for an extended period of time. But certainly this last offseason, trying to add guys who fit into that clubhouse, that have a certain type of character, a certain type of makeup that helps not only focus on the matter at hand and competes, but also makes the guys around them better. James is another example of that type of makeup. Jerry [Reinsdorf] appreciated the entirety of the player beyond just that one game." Oh, sorry. Didn't realize Hahn said his Boss was fine with wasting money a terrible acquisition. Case closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:50 AM) Oh, sorry. Didn't realize Hahn said his Boss was fine with wasting money a terrible acquisition. Case closed. I know you are being sarcastic, but it pretty much is. Hahn isn't getting fired. KW isn't getting fired. Anyone want to bet on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 If the Sox finish under 75 wins and Shields continues to be the worst pitcher in baseball, I would be shocked if no FO movement happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:52 AM) If the Sox finish under 75 wins and Shields continues to be the worst pitcher in baseball, I would be shocked if no FO movement happens. I wouldn't put a win total on it, or all on the Shields deal. Short of making the playoffs, changes must be made. It's a terrible organization on every level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 This team is a lot closer to Minnesota and another Top 10 draft pick than it is a playoff appearance. Let's just wait and see what the next week of massacres brings. It would be shocking if they managed to win more than 1 or 2 games this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:57 AM) I wouldn't put a win total on it, or all on the Shields deal. Short of making the playoffs, changes must be made. It's a terrible organization on every level. The ONLY reasons to care right now are Tim Anderson and seeing how those first three draft picks do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:57 AM) I wouldn't put a win total on it, or all on the Shields deal. Short of making the playoffs, changes must be made. It's a terrible organization on every level. The ONLY reasons to care right now are Tim Anderson and seeing how those first three draft picks do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:57 AM) I wouldn't put a win total on it, or all on the Shields deal. Short of making the playoffs, changes must be made. It's a terrible organization on every level. The ONLY reasons to care right now are Tim Anderson and seeing how those first three draft picks do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Edwards Shot Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Blowing it up sounds appealing when a fan is raging after a series sweep, but you have to cool off and step back from the ledge. It's all too easy to talk about it (I've done it myself many times), but is anyone in here really patient enough to suck hard for the next 5 years while young players develop? Have all the possible ramifications of that kind of dramatic move been fully considered? I don't think so. Does anyone in here think that there are ready takers for all of the guys we'd like to trade off? That's not a foregone conclusion and it's a big assumption. It's entirely possible that we couldn't get back in trade what we're seeking, in which case you can't make the trades. Even if in a fantasy scenario we are able to trade each and every player for all of the return value we want, most minor league prospects don't pan out. What if we go through a rebuild, suck for 4-5 years, and have nothing to show for it? Then we suck for 5 more and we're approaching 20 years without making the playoffs. That is a distinct possibility, especially with faith in the front office at a low point. I don't want to turn into the Detroit Lions of baseball and make things even worse than they currently are. Sox ownership knows that they already have modest attendance by league standards. Even when the team started the season hot at 23-10, the attendance still wasn't that great. They have to retain a few all-star type players to lure fans to the ballpark, otherwise there will be 10 people at the Cell. That said, they will never trade all of the guys away, especially not a super-bargain like Sale. It's not happening. There still must be a face of the franchise and Sale is it in 2016. If the wager were available in Vegas, I would bet the house that the Sox will not do a total blow up no matter what happens this season. They will keep their core and start fresh at trying to build around it - same as they've always done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:59 AM) The ONLY reasons to care right now are Tim Anderson and seeing how those first three draft picks do.... That's ridiculous. I love watching Sale, Quintana, and Rodon pitch. Quintana should be the frontrunner for the AL Cy Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:09 AM) That's ridiculous. I love watching Sale, Quintana, and Rodon pitch. Quintana should be the frontrunner for the AL Cy Young. To each their own. Quintana is having a great year as always, but he's not winning a Cy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Liefer Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:32 AM) Jeff Liefer - please drop by when you can. anyone who played minor league ball knows a hell of a lot more than most of us. maybe change your name and go incognito. I like reading what you guys post more. I am a fan first. But I had to just indicate I've lived like Frazier does at lesser levels and anyone who hits for power like that doesn't need a game off because it just puts them further away from figuring "it" out. We need players around him to make that sustainable because we already saw what he can do to single handedly win games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) The Sox have committed too much money and have too much talent in the clubhouse to blow it up right now. I'd say that they're at least 12 months from that point. If I were in Hahn's position, I'd sign Rodon, Lawrie, and Frazier (assuming that he starts hitting again) to extensions this winter and do what I can to address DH, C, and CF. If the Sox are struggling in July of 2017, I'd seriously consider dealing Sale, Robertson, and Jones to the highest bidders at the deadline. I wouldn't do a full rebuild, as they should have enough of a core at that point to compete in 2019. That core would include Quintana, Rodon, Fulmer (hopefully), Eaton, Anderson, and Frazier (see above). If I were JR, I'd look to replace Kenny with Hahn and hire a new GM in the winter of 2017/2018. I'm assuming that Renteria will be our opening day manager in 2017 and I'd keep him and his staff in place during the partial rebuild. Edited June 20, 2016 by Black_Jack29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:12 AM) To each their own. Quintana is having a great year as always, but he's not winning a Cy. He should clearly be the AL favorite though. It's not that close either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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