Rick Hahn

[caulfield12]

That's my point. Veterans don't have to stay on the roster all season to make contributions to a winning team.

 

Citing the back two arms of the Indians' bullpen as "failures" because they were let go isn't proof that they didn't help hold down the fort and get CLE to the point where they now are...in fact, if either of them failed in that 18 inning game, they'd have one less win. That alone is worth the minimal amount of money spent on them (compared to $1.5 million for Jacob Turner, who won't even pitch for the Sox this season.)

Edited July 5, 2016 by caulfield12

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Sox should try and sign Holland for next season.

[Dick Allen]

We all give Hahn credit for Matt Latos and Jimmy Rollins...

 

So Gorzelanny and Joba were simply placeholders in the same vein, and they were effective ENOUGH. The game that Bauer pitched 5 innings that went 18, Chamberlain and Gorzelanny both played huge roles. And they both probably cost about the same as Jacob Turner to sit in Charlotte and get bombed.

 

The fact of the matter is that Clevinger is potentially part of their future and has more upside. Have to applaud the Indians for not resting on their laurels but continuing to find ways to improve their team 1-25.

Gorzelanny pitched 3 innings. Had an ERA of 21.00. And here you are moving goalposts again.

 

Did you break up with Dayton Moore? It uses to be all Royals all the time, can't do anything wrong. Now your new favorite team is Cleveland, they get praised for signing s***, then praised for letting it go. White Sox fan my ass.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Dick Allen

[soxforlife05]

How was letting Chamberlain go a good move? We could use him over Ynoa or Beck.

[caulfield12]

How was letting Chamberlain go a good move? We could use him over Ynoa or Beck.

 

It was a good move for CLE because they wanted to give a younger player an opportunity, someone who could be part of their bullpen long-term going forward.

 

Now we'll see how other GM's value Chamberlain, and whether the White Sox pick him up or not.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=360701114

That one strikeout and Chamberlain surviving that single inning were enough to justify the tiny amount of money they were paid.

 

It wasn't really deserved, as Chamberlain owns a 2.25 ERA in 20 appearances this season, but the Indians are in need of some fresh arms in their bullpen. Mike Clevinger and T.J. House were called up Monday. Jul 4 - 4:05 PM

 

He was signed on a minor league deal. Was throwing 94-96 MPH in that inning last FRI.

 

 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Would love to add a couple arms in the pen (I know we have some options in the minors as well) like Rzepczynski-OAK and Vizcaino-ATL, then a bat and let's see how this team does to finish the season.

Edited July 5, 2016 by SouthSideSale

[caulfield12]

Gorzelanny pitched 3 innings. Had an ERA of 21.00. And here you are moving goalposts again.

 

Did you break up with Dayton Moore? It uses to be all Royals all the time, can't do anything wrong. Now your new favorite team is Cleveland, they get praised for signing s***, then praised for letting it go. White Sox fan my ass.

 

They get praised for improving a team even when that reliever's ERA would have been one of the best on the White Sox in around 20 appearances.

 

Maybe #1.

 

As far as the Royals go, very few teams can surviving losing four All-Stars at different points in the season (Gordon, Moustakas and now Cain for significant stretches), but I'm pretty sure they do something before July 31st to make a run at it again in the 2nd half. Probably another starting pitcher and bat. Actually, Moore's probably done his best job since joining KC keeping this team within 1 game of the WC spot with so many injuries.

 

If you want to blame Dayton Moore for all of those players getting injured, have at it.

 

[caulfield12]

Would love to add a couple arms in the pen (I know we have some options in the minors as well) like Rzepczynski-OAK and Vizcaino-ATL, then a bat and let's see how this team does to finish the season.

 

The asking price for Vizcaino is going to be pretty significant...above our system's ability to meet their price, and they're unlikely to trade a future starter in Fulmer for a reliever unless they also believe that's Fulmer's future in the big leagues.

[caulfield12]

Gorzelanny faced one batter with nobody on...

 

 

The LARGER point is that they brought in five established veterans from other big league teams in order to improve their pen, which was a huge weakness last year before you got to Shaw and Allen.

 

Hahn decided that the risk of not having any experienced depth there was worth taking...which turned out to be a challenge with Petricka and then Putnam going down, and Albers becoming ineffective.

 

In 2012, all of our rookies got the job done for 85-90% of the season. That hasn't been the case this year with our minor league depth.

[Dick Allen]

The LARGER point is that they brought in five established veterans from other big league teams in order to improve their pen, which was a huge weakness last year before you got to Shaw and Allen.

 

Hahn decided that the risk of not having any experienced depth there was worth taking...which turned out to be a challenge with Petricka and then Putnam going down, and Albers becoming ineffective.

 

In 2012, all of our rookies got the job done for 85-90% of the season. That hasn't been the case this year with our minor league depth.

On June 28th, you pointed out the Indians bullpen as a weakness.

[caulfield12]

On June 28th, you pointed out the Indians bullpen as a weakness.

 

And how many other weaknesses did I list? 9?

 

But the same point can be made about the White Sox, and Omarscoming tried to argue it isn't...that it's actually a strength.

 

And just because it's a COMPARATIVE weakness to the other elements of their team doesn't mean it's bad/terrible/preventing them from becoming a playoff team.

 

There's no team (this year) in the Central without bullpen problems, the Royals included. Hochevar and Soria haven't been as good as expected, Duffy had to be moved back to the rotation and Collins still isn't back from TJ. So I would say KC doesn't have anywhere near the pen they did in 2014-15, although calling it an actual weakness might be pushing the definition of weakness a bit.

 

 

Let's just say even the Yankees would like to improve the back end of their bullpen (hence, moving Eovaldi and possibly Pineda there).

Edited July 5, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

And how many other weaknesses did I list? 9?

 

But the same point can be made about the White Sox, and Omarscoming tried to argue it isn't...that it's actually a strength.

 

And just because it's a COMPARATIVE weakness to the other elements of their team doesn't mean it's bad/terrible/preventing them from becoming a playoff team.

 

There's no team (this year) in the Central without bullpen problems, the Royals included. Hochevar and Soria haven't been as good as expected, Duffy had to be moved back to the rotation and Collins still isn't back from TJ. So I would say KC doesn't have anywhere near the pen they did in 2014-15, although calling it an actual weakness might be pushing the definition of weakness a bit.

 

 

Let's just say even the Yankees would like to improve the back end of their bullpen (hence, moving Eovaldi and possibly Pineda there).

 

The Yankees are fine with the backend of their bullpen. You are making things up again. I understand the Sox have been playing better so you are a bit cranky.

 

[brian310]

The Yankees are fine with the backend of their bullpen. You are making things up again. I understand the Sox have been playing better so you are a bit cranky.

 

Lol apparently Miller Betances and Chapman is a weak back-end bullpen that needs improvement.

Edited July 5, 2016 by chisoxfan310

[Bigsoxhurt35]

And how many other weaknesses did I list? 9?

 

But the same point can be made about the White Sox, and Omarscoming tried to argue it isn't...that it's actually a strength.

 

And just because it's a COMPARATIVE weakness to the other elements of their team doesn't mean it's bad/terrible/preventing them from becoming a playoff team.

 

There's no team (this year) in the Central without bullpen problems, the Royals included. Hochevar and Soria haven't been as good as expected, Duffy had to be moved back to the rotation and Collins still isn't back from TJ. So I would say KC doesn't have anywhere near the pen they did in 2014-15, although calling it an actual weakness might be pushing the definition of weakness a bit.

 

 

Let's just say even the Yankees would like to improve the back end of their bullpen (hence, moving Eovaldi and possibly Pineda there).

They don't need back end pen help.

[Quin]

1) at the Yankees needing to improve the back end of the bullpen.

 

2) Sox backend is fine. It's Albers, Ynoa and Beck that need replacing.

[soxforlife05]

It was a good move for CLE because they wanted to give a younger player an opportunity, someone who could be part of their bullpen long-term going forward.

 

Now we'll see how other GM's value Chamberlain, and whether the White Sox pick him up or not.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=360701114

That one strikeout and Chamberlain surviving that single inning were enough to justify the tiny amount of money they were paid.

 

It wasn't really deserved, as Chamberlain owns a 2.25 ERA in 20 appearances this season, but the Indians are in need of some fresh arms in their bullpen. Mike Clevinger and T.J. House were called up Monday. Jul 4 - 4:05 PM

 

He was signed on a minor league deal. Was throwing 94-96 MPH in that inning last FRI.

 

Clevenger sucks we lit him up. House has an ERA close to 5 on their AAA team. Good luck to them with that.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

1) at the Yankees needing to improve the back end of the bullpen.

 

2) Sox backend is fine. It's Albers, Ynoa and Beck that need replacing.

Sucks that Cat Albers is MIA

 

I want a couple of arms by the deadline

[caulfield12]

Front end, back end...whatever. The Yankees' middle relief sucks.

 

The fact of the matter is that we've been using Matt Albers for WEEKS when he was terrible. He has a 9+ ERA over almost his last 20.

 

Chamberlain has a low 2's ERA, throws 94-96 MPH consistently...and the Indians still feel they can improve that spot.

Tells you about their sense of urgency.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Time will tell whether the Shields move was the right one.

 

That one did feel a bit desperate at the time....and their situation wasn't like the Indians with a 5-7 game first place lead.

 

He's still given up 27 runs in 26 1/3 IP for a 9+ ERA with the Sox. Even his "good" version the last 2-3 starts might not be worth $22 million over 2 years (please, no references to how we were paying Danks even more to do about the same).

[Bigsoxhurt35]

There was no harm in trading for shields. Paying some of that contract may make some mad but if he pitches like has his last three starts its worth it.

[GreenSox]

There was no harm in trading for shields. Paying some of that contract may make some mad but if he pitches like has his last three starts its worth it.

He's pitching like a 5th starter now. His first 2 starts were indescribable. Is he worth that price as a fifth starter? In a vacuum, no. But in the Sox circumstances, maybe.

Still the poor talent evaluation out of Hahn and Cooper is a big reason for the circumstances requiring a overpayment for a fifth starter.

[caulfield12]

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/...ept-dream-alive

 

 

Where was Paddy's assessment??? Venezuela is supposed to be his first country of expertise.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/331117601.html

 

The pickup of Guerra is interesting in that he'll be 31 years old by the time the Brewers open spring training, and he was out of affiliated baseball from 2009-'14. Neither would seem to mesh with a team in the midst of a rebuild.

 

Guerra, a native Venezuelan, made a total of 31 appearances between Class AA Birmingham and Class AAA Charlotte in Chicago's system – including 11 starts. All told, he went 4-7 with a 3.13 ERA and a WHIP of 1.10 with 105 strikeouts in 83 1/3 innings.

 

From 2008-'14, Guerra played in the Venezuelan Winter League as well as a number of other foreign and unaffiliated leagues. He began his career in 2006 and spent that year in the system of the Atlanta Braves, then spent the 2008 season in the New York Mets' system before being suspended 50 games for PED use.

 

The White Sox signed Guerra as a free agent last October, and he went 6-4 with a 3.46 ERA in 15 starts in the Venezuelan Winter League.

Edited July 5, 2016 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

If the White Sox are going to get a ton of credit for Jose Quintana (actually, quite similar circumstances to Guerra, except Junior's age and even more traveled history), then they should have to answer for why they didn't see Junior as having a future with the team.

 

He's got a 2.1 WAR right now. Now we can't guarantee those same results were he pitching with the White Sox, but looking at all of the other pitchers the White Sox were protecting on their October 5th 40 man roster...it's a bit befuddling.

 

The Yankees/Cashman always said Quintana got caught up in a numbers game and that they had a number of better, more highly touted prospects than him in their system...but who exactly from the White Sox system so badly needed to be protected?

Edited July 5, 2016 by caulfield12

[FT35]

He's pitching like a 5th starter now. His first 2 starts were indescribable. Is he worth that price as a fifth starter? In a vacuum, no. But in the Sox circumstances, maybe.

Still the poor talent evaluation out of Hahn and Cooper is a big reason for the circumstances requiring a overpayment for a fifth starter.

 

 

That's great because we needed a 5th starter too! Now we need a 3rd!

[Dick Allen]

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/...ept-dream-alive

 

 

Where was Paddy's assessment??? Venezuela is supposed to be his first country of expertise.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/331117601.html

 

The pickup of Guerra is interesting in that he'll be 31 years old by the time the Brewers open spring training, and he was out of affiliated baseball from 2009-'14. Neither would seem to mesh with a team in the midst of a rebuild.

 

Guerra, a native Venezuelan, made a total of 31 appearances between Class AA Birmingham and Class AAA Charlotte in Chicago's system – including 11 starts. All told, he went 4-7 with a 3.13 ERA and a WHIP of 1.10 with 105 strikeouts in 83 1/3 innings.

 

From 2008-'14, Guerra played in the Venezuelan Winter League as well as a number of other foreign and unaffiliated leagues. He began his career in 2006 and spent that year in the system of the Atlanta Braves, then spent the 2008 season in the New York Mets' system before being suspended 50 games for PED use.

 

The White Sox signed Guerra as a free agent last October, and he went 6-4 with a 3.46 ERA in 15 starts in the Venezuelan Winter League.

The only one on this board who would have a beef about Guerra is Feeky. Other than that, no one said anything when the Sox let him go. He will go south at some point.

 

I wonder how Dayton Moore missed on that one. He could have saved the $70 million he gave Ian Kennedy for some of his free agents.