Rick Hahn

[ptatc]

Everyone is exhausted talking about Ventura...and this whole Shields debacle (so far) has almost forced everyone to start looking up higher on the food chain.

 

JR is the only one who knows who was the biggest advocate and pushed the hardest for Shields. Maybe KW, maybe Hahn...I doubt it was 50/50 an equal presentation from both execs when they made that pitch to JR.

Obviously, no one else works at a place where multiple people sit a a table with coffee and a few pastries and actually discuss things. They all give their views and discuss positives and negatives and then come to a decision. The decision is rarely all one persons idea or thought. Then the highest ranking person in the room (KW here) will take that decision up to the next level (JR here) for final approval.

[southsider2k5]

Obviously, no one else works at a place where multiple people sit a a table with coffee and a few pastries and actually discuss things. They all give their views and discuss positives and negatives and then come to a decision. The decision is rarely all one persons idea or thought. Then the highest ranking person in the room (KW here) will take that decision up to the next level (JR here) for final approval.

 

This is way too logical for my taste. Obviously the real answer is that Rick Hahn does all of this incredible work only for Kenny Williams to burst into the room, start swearing and throwing things at Hahn, until he cowers in fear agreeing to whatever Kenny told him to do... or maybe it is your way.

 

But I doubt it.

[GreenSox]

Everyone is exhausted talking about Ventura...and this whole Shields debacle (so far) has almost forced everyone to start looking up higher on the food chain.

 

JR is the only one who knows who was the biggest advocate and pushed the hardest for Shields. Maybe KW, maybe Hahn...I doubt it was 50/50 an equal presentation from both execs when they made that pitch to JR.

Well we know what KW's strategy was: this. And what we're seeing from Hahn since 2014 differs very little from the Williams approach. Now Hahn's first year differed significantly when he doubled the young core, but that came to an abrupt halt when he traded 4 prospects off of a mighty 73 win team to rent Samardjija. .

Since 2014, Hahn has been relentless in his pursuit of veterans. Hahn's early work has now been subsumed in the subsequent 3 years of a GM clownshow. Both need to go.

Edited June 22, 2016 by GreenSox

[Quin]

Well we know what KW's strategy was: this. And what we're seeing from Hahn since 2014 differs very little from the Williams approach. Now Hahn's first year differed significantly when he doubled the young core, but that came to an abrupt halt when he traded 4 prospects off of a mighty 73 win team to rent Samardjija. .

Since 2014, Hahn has been relentless in his pursuit of veterans. Hahn's early work has now been subsumed in the subsequent 3 years of a GM clownshow. Both need to go.

 

I mean so far his last two drafts have initially looked good and the Latin pipeline is growing.

[southsider2k5]

I mean so far his last two drafts have initially looked good and the Latin pipeline is growing.

 

Giving him facts is a complete waste of time. It is like talking to a Trump voter.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I mean so far his last two drafts have initially looked good and the Latin pipeline is growing.

 

Have the Sox ever had a good player from the Dominican Republic developed through their system ? I don't know the history of Dominican baseball but it's safe to say they have made quite an impact on baseball for the last 50+years since the days of the Alou brothers and Rico Carty . Telling me that the Latin pipeline is growing for the Sox is like telling me they just got a new rotary phone when the rest of baseball is using cell phones.

[oldsox]

Giving him facts is a complete waste of time. It is like talking to a Trump voter.

Are you turning SoxTalk into your own political sideshow?

[bmags]

Have the Sox ever had a good player from the Dominican Republic developed through their system ? I don't know the history of Dominican baseball but it's safe to say they have made quite an impact on baseball for the last 50+years since the days of the Alou brothers and Rico Carty . Telling me that the Latin pipeline is growing for the Sox is like telling me they just got a new rotary phone when the rest of baseball is using cell phones.

 

Well, for a time the white sox were quite successful. As both Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee were great finds from non-draft scouting.

 

The Dave Wilder era was a literal lost decade, which only began getting cleaned up in 2013 with Marco Paddy. Those players are finally coming stateside with major positive ramifications.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Well, for a time the white sox were quite successful. As both Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee were great finds from non-draft scouting.

 

The Dave Wilder era was a literal lost decade, which only began getting cleaned up in 2013 with Marco Paddy. Those players are finally coming stateside with major positive ramifications.

 

Carlos Lee is Panamanian and Ordonez is Venezuelan. . I know all about the Wilder scandal. If that messed up 10 years what about the other 40 since the Alou brothers came into MLB around 1963 where are our Dominicans ?

[southsider2k5]

Carlos Lee is Panamanian and Ordonez is Venezuelan. . I know all about the Wilder scandal. If that messed up 10 years what about the other 40 since the Alou brothers came into MLB around 1963 where are our Dominicans ?

 

Why does the actual race matter? The entire Latin American group comes from the same signing pool. If they are Domincan or Cuban, or Venezuelan or whatever doesn't actually matter.

[caulfield12]

Perhaps the fact that a good 50% of that 35%+ number of current MLB players are originating in Latin America is somewhat important? It might even be closer to 40% right now, I'm not going to chase down the number by looking at all the current rosters.

 

So if you're cut off from 20% of the talent in the world, you have to find it in other places. (See CLE/KC rosters for a comparison)

 

The White Sox have mitigated this SOMEWHAT by the Cuban (Ramirez/Abreu), but the answer, I think, is Jesus Pena, a relief pitcher.

 

And that was a decade or so ago. We've had Eduardo Escobar and Carlos Sanchez as well, but no true impact players.

 

 

Basically, we never had a presence in Venezuela, even though Ozzie was one of the most famous players/managers in the history of that country....about 10-12 MLB teams at one point had baseball academies there, although many have closed up shop with the increasing danger in the country, kidnappings, military dictatorship, anti-American sentiment, etc.

 

Fwiw, we also found Paulo Orlando and Andre Rienzo out of Brazil, but Orlando never contributed to the White Sox. The follow up on that...well, Jerry Krause went down to do South American scouting for JR and hasn't been heard from since.

 

 

Finally, there's the Asian market. We had Takatsu and Iguchi, and that's about it, unless you want to count Don Wakamatsu.

A number of the Korean hitters (starting with Kang in Pitt) have made pretty big impacts over the last 18 months, but the White Sox haven't come close there for a decade. What the explanation is, not sure? Scouting budget/resources?

 

KW famously signed Iguchi from reviewing video from the Japanese professional league. I'm not even 100% he actually saw him in person.

 

I remember we did sign a Taiwanese or Korean pitcher back about 6-7 years ago for a decent-sized bonus but he fell off the map/injuries, etc. Maybe he was traded to the Red Sox, but he didn't get very far.

 

 

I'll give one final example. The Royals signed Cheslor Cuthbert out of Corn Island, Nicaragua. His father was and still is a lobsterman. I think there's been perhaps 10 players in the last 30 years or so out of Nicaragua, with Dennis El President Martinez being one of the most famous. David Green of the Cardinals, it has mostly been pitchers. At any rate, it's an island of 6000 people with one paved road for approximately 10 KM. Yet somehow a scout was able to identify his talent and they came up with a $1 million signing bonus for the kid, who has been a critical factor in stabilizing the infield after Moustakas went down.

 

The point is if Todd Frazier got injured, there would be a huge falloff to Carlos Sanchez or Saladino at 3B. Minor league depth and good Latin American scouting allows you to fill in the gaps and not have to keep dumpster diving for veterans (and some bargain veterans ARE good, if you signed Asdrubal Cabrera or Ian Desmond, you would be delighted with your purchases...it's just that those examples are few and far between....the success rate is about 10-15%, at best).

Edited June 22, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Perhaps the fact that a good 50% of that 35%+ number of current MLB players originating in Latin America.

 

So if you're cut off from 20% of the talent in the world, you have to find it in other places. (See CLE/KC rosters for a comparison)

 

The White Sox have mitigated this SOMEWHAT by the Cuban (Ramirez/Abreu), but the answer, I think, is Jesus Pena, a relief pitcher.

 

And that was a decade or so ago. We've had Eduardo Escobar and Carlos Sanchez as well, but no true impact players.

 

 

Basically, we never had a presence in Venezuela, even though Ozzie was one of the most famous players/managers in the history of that country....about 10-12 MLB teams at one point had baseball academies there, although many have closed up shop with the increasing danger in the country, kidnappings, military dictatorship, anti-American sentiment, etc.

 

Fwiw, we also found Paulo Orlando and Andre Rienzo out of Brazil, but Orlando never contributed to the White Sox. The follow up on that...well, Jerry Krause went down to do South American scouting for JR and hasn't been heard from since.

 

 

Finally, there's the Asian market. We had Takatsu and Iguchi, and that's about it, unless you want to count Don Wakamatsu.

A number of the Korean hitters (starting with Kang in Pitt) have made pretty big impacts over the last 18 months, but the White Sox haven't come close there for a decade. What the explanation is, not sure? Scouting budget/resources?

 

KW famously signed Iguchi from reviewing video from the Japanese professional league. I'm not even 100% he actually saw him in person.

 

I remember we did sign a Taiwanese or Korean pitcher back about 6-7 years ago for a decent-sized bonus but he fell off the map/injuries, etc. Maybe he was traded to the Red Sox, but he didn't get very far.

 

One of our top rated signings last year was out of Venezuela. But don't let me stand in the way of some name dropping.

[caulfield12]

So your rebuttal argument is that we've signed ONE "top player" out of Venezuela that 85-90% of SoxTalk hasn't even heard of?

 

The odds for OU's Mr. Hansen winning the AL Cy Young some day are higher than that kid making it to the major leagues.

Edited June 22, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

So your rebuttal argument is that we've signed ONE "top player" out of Venezuela that 85-90% of SoxTalk hasn't even heard of?

 

The odds for OU's Mr. Hansen winning the AL Cy Young some day are higher than that kid making it to the major leagues.

 

I mean I could just keep posting lists of names and changing the subjects, but that would just be a waste of time, right?

[bmags]

Carlos Lee is Panamanian and Ordonez is Venezuelan. . I know all about the Wilder scandal. If that messed up 10 years what about the other 40 since the Alou brothers came into MLB around 1963 where are our Dominicans ?

Oh sorry, I didn't realize your point was so shallow that you actually meant we needed "our own Dominicans" to win.

[bmags]

So your rebuttal argument is that we've signed ONE "top player" out of Venezuela that 85-90% of SoxTalk hasn't even heard of?

 

The odds for OU's Mr. Hansen winning the AL Cy Young some day are higher than that kid making it to the major leagues.

 

Why are you writing this? Are you arguing we shouldn't sign Latin American players because it won't often work out? I know you don't think that, but because you write for some reason everything free every post it is what you are arguing.

[southsider2k5]

I mean I could just keep posting lists of names and changing the subjects, but that would just be a waste of time, right?

 

Actually let's list names. That sounds fun. So it looks like the meme's about ignoring entire countries are BS.

 

Recent signings by country, since the theme seems to be just drop whatever you think is right without any research:

 

Venenzuela

Joxelier Garcia

Edinxon Arias

Carlos Diaz

Jhoan Quijada

Carlos Perez

Ylexander Villarroel

Juan Acosta

Harvin Mendoza

 

Domniican Republic

Luis Castillo

Yeuris Guerrero

Luis Ledo

Eriberto Percel

Makier Feliz

Felix Mercedes

Ricky Mota

Armando Nunez

Micker Adolfo

Hanleth Otano

Victor Done

Yemilson Peralta

Fernando Tatis Jr

 

Cuba

Andres Sanchez

 

Mexico

Salvador Villarreal

 

Columbia

Jhoandro Alfaro

[GreenSox]

Giving him facts is a complete waste of time. It is like talking to a Trump voter.

That you think the last 2 drafts have been good is an opinion, not a fact. How's Fulmer looking, in your opinion? We're investing internationally? The Cubs, RedSox etc invest. I believe Hahn himself said that he's paying a whopping one big bonus. That's not an investment - that's doing the minimum.

But you asked for facts:

4 players for 1 season of Shark

A top 100, a CF who raked (possible NL rookie of year) and another prospect for 2 years of Frazier. Hopefully Frazier can hit .220

Two pitching prospects for sub .700 OPS Lawrie (despite having promising youths Sanchez and Saladino on the roster).

Signed Keppinger, Latos, Rollins, and Bonificaio ($3 mill!!!!) all of whom had to be DFAd. Also signed Beckham for $2 million

Gave De Aza and Thornton away for nothing; both had productive years left.

Traded Rios for Leury Garcia; Rios helped the Royals win he Worlds Series.

Signed Adam Laroche. Horrible, then put on a clownact, and Hahn's boss had to step in and fix the clubhouse.

Signed Albers, and Duke, both of whom have been mediocre

Robertson has done his job.

Signed Melky Cabrera - okay this year, terrible last year; can't play defense

Kept Ventura and Cooper around

Traded for Shields

 

63, 73, and 76 wins under his leadership. 1 post-season in a decade from he and Williams.

 

Facts

Of course, before most of that, he got Eaton and Abreu. Then he decided that declining veterans were the better use of resources.

Edited June 23, 2016 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

That you think the last 2 drafts have been good is an opinion, not a fact. How's Fulmer looking, in your opinion? We're investing internationally? The Cubs, RedSox etc invest. I believe Hahn himself said that he's paying a whopping one big bonus. That's not an investment - that's doing the minimum.

But you asked for facts:

4 players for 1 season of Shark

A top 100, a CF who raked (possible NL rookie of year) and another prospect for 2 years of Frazier. Hopefully Frazier can hit .220

Two pitching prospects for sub .700 OPS Lawrie

Signed Keppinger, Latos, Rollins, and Bonificaio ($3 mill!!!!) all of whom had to be DFAd. Also signed Beckham for $2 million

Gave De Aza and Thornton away for nothing; both had productive years left.

Traded Rios for Leury Garcia; Rios helped the Royals win he Worlds Series.

Signed Adam Laroche. Horrible, then put on a clownact, and Hahn's boss had to step in and fix the clubhouse.

Signed Albers, and Duke, both of whom have been mediocre

Robertson has done his job.

Signed Melky Cabrera - okay this year, terrible last year; can't play defense

Kept Ventura and Cooper around

Traded for Shields

 

63, 73, and 76 wins under his leadership. 1 post-season in a decade from he and Williams.

 

There are some facts for you. The people ignoring the facts are the supporters of Hahn and Willaims

 

I love how you loaded a post about facts, with a ton of your own opinions, and then called them facts Thanks for making my point.

[soxforlife05]

Giving him facts is a complete waste of time. It is like talking to a Trump voter.

 

I think the water in Michigan City is doing some strange things to you. The chemicals are rotting your brain.

[caulfield12]

That you think the last 2 drafts have been good is an opinion, not a fact. How's Fulmer looking, in your opinion? We're investing internationally? The Cubs, RedSox etc invest. I believe Hahn himself said that he's paying a whopping one big bonus. That's not an investment - that's doing the minimum.

But you asked for facts:

4 players for 1 season of Shark (we now have to include Ynoa and Burdi in the equation)

A top 100, a CF who raked (possible NL rookie of year) and another prospect for 2 years of Frazier. Hopefully Frazier can hit .220

Two pitching prospects for sub .700 OPS Lawrie (despite having promising youths Sanchez and Saladino on the roster). Thompson's not going to win NL Rookie of the Year, it will be Diaz with the Cardinals...he MIGHT end up Top 5, but more likely 6-10

Signed Keppinger, Latos, Rollins, and Bonificaio ($3 mill!!!!) all of whom had to be DFAd. Also signed Beckham for $2 million you forgot Paulino and Downs

Gave De Aza and Thornton away for nothing; both had productive years left.arguable, DeAza is terrible now and Matty was never the same for the Sox after Thome took him deep in late 2010

Traded Rios for Leury Garcia; Rios helped the Royals win he Worlds Series. no Royals fans would agree with that, he was their worst signing by far

Signed Adam Laroche. Horrible, then put on a clownact, and Hahn's boss had to step in and fix the clubhouse.

Signed Albers, and Duke, both of whom have been mediocre Albers, based on expectations, has still been an overall plus, and Duke two days ago turned in his best performance ever...and, if you look at Soria for $25 million/3 years, it's not the WORST reliever contract out there, but not a good one either

Robertson has done his job.

Signed Melky Cabrera - okay this year, terrible last year; can't play defense

Kept Ventura and Cooper around

Traded for Shields

 

63, 73, and 76 wins under his leadership. 1 post-season in a decade from he and Williams.

 

Facts

Of course, before most of that, he got Eaton and Abreu. Then he decided that declining veterans were the better use of resources.

Edited June 23, 2016 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Actually let's list names. That sounds fun. So it looks like the meme's about ignoring entire countries are BS.

 

Recent signings by country, since the theme seems to be just drop whatever you think is right without any research:

 

Venenzuela

Joxelier Garcia

Edinxon Arias

Carlos Diaz

Jhoan Quijada

Carlos Perez

Ylexander Villarroel

Juan Acosta

Harvin Mendoza

 

Domniican Republic

Luis Castillo

Yeuris Guerrero

Luis Ledo

Eriberto Percel

Makier Feliz

Felix Mercedes

Ricky Mota

Armando Nunez

Micker Adolfo

Hanleth Otano

Victor Done

Yemilson Peralta

Fernando Tatis Jr

 

Cuba

Andres Sanchez

 

Mexico

Salvador Villarreal

 

Columbia

Jhoandro Alfaro

 

 

They're just names until they at least reach Winston-Salem...or start showing up in the Top 10 list (Adolfo briefly made it, but probably wouldn't have in most systems with a lot of depth/talent)

 

Whether it's 50, 100 or 150 names, doesn't matter unless we can see what other teams thought they were worth or what other teams were willing to invest in them if the Sox didn't sign them first...

 

And what were the signing bonuses for all those players, compared to the rest of MLB team expenditures internationally in the last 3 years?

 

It's not the ONLY indicator, but it's an important one. Ynoa and Sano, for example, were the two highest paid out of the Dominican the year they both signed. Ynoa actually set a record with his bonus.

Edited June 23, 2016 by caulfield12

[Quin]

That you think the last 2 drafts have been good is an opinion, not a fact. How's Fulmer looking, in your opinion? We're investing internationally? The Cubs, RedSox etc invest. I believe Hahn himself said that he's paying a whopping one big bonus. That's not an investment - that's doing the minimum.

But you asked for facts:

4 players for 1 season of Shark

A top 100, a CF who raked (possible NL rookie of year) and another prospect for 2 years of Frazier. Hopefully Frazier can hit .220

Two pitching prospects for sub .700 OPS Lawrie (despite having promising youths Sanchez and Saladino on the roster).

Signed Keppinger, Latos, Rollins, and Bonificaio ($3 mill!!!!) all of whom had to be DFAd. Also signed Beckham for $2 million

Gave De Aza and Thornton away for nothing; both had productive years left.

Traded Rios for Leury Garcia; Rios helped the Royals win he Worlds Series.

Signed Adam Laroche. Horrible, then put on a clownact, and Hahn's boss had to step in and fix the clubhouse.

Signed Albers, and Duke, both of whom have been mediocre

Robertson has done his job.

Signed Melky Cabrera - okay this year, terrible last year; can't play defense

Kept Ventura and Cooper around

Traded for Shields

 

63, 73, and 76 wins under his leadership. 1 post-season in a decade from he and Williams.

 

Facts

Of course, before most of that, he got Eaton and Abreu. Then he decided that declining veterans were the better use of resources.

 

Ser Caulfield's post. GreenSox, you do way too much hero worship.

[Texsox]

I read this while drinking coffee. I'm going to come back later after a few drinks and see if it makes more sense.

[OmarComing25]

Latos was not a negative move. In a world where mediocre starters get 12-15 million a year, 3 million is nothing, his April alone made the move worth it. If Rollins played any major part in getting LaRoche to retire, and it sounds like he did, then he was actually one of Hahn's better moves regardless of what he did on the field, and that's not including anything he might have done for Anderson and Saladino as a veteran presence. Beckham for 2 million was also fine, he was worth 0.3 WAR as a bench player, he earned his small paycheck. I also think people way overrate how bad the Duke move was, and it's hilarious that Greensox is mad that the Sox traded over the hill veterans in Rios (no he didn't help win a title, he was one of their worst players), Thornton and De Aza, way to talk out of both sides of your mouth. That's not the only thing you're being inconsistent with either. You can't hate on the Freddy Garcia trade because "it looked bad on paper" at the time and ignore the end result, while doing the exact opposite with many of the moves listed here.

Edited June 23, 2016 by OmarComing25