Rick Hahn

[GreenSox]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colum...625-column.html

 

Paul Sullivan one of the first local Chicago media members to turn the accusing finger at Hahn.

About time. Hahn has been making the precise opposite moves that winning teams make: acquiring the old players that winners sell-off for ML ready prospects. And when he did dump, they were Williams-like giveaways (except for Peavy).

[caulfield12]

Of course, the Peavy deal (contract extension) was not exactly met with universal praise, either. Seemed a bit ill-advised, like the club didn't have a clear direction. Same thing with the time when they extended Danks and turned around and traded their closer for scraps simultaneously.

 

Still amazed that we got anything out of Peavy.

Edited June 27, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Am I missing something here? Despite all of the moaning, the White Sox aren't on a pace to lose 140 games. They won 63 Hahn's first year, 73 his second, 76 his 3rd and are .500 right now despite an insanely bad stretch of baseball. The minor leaguers appear to be getting better. He's made some mistakes. All GMs made some mistakes. But they aren't dead this year. Finish up strong before the All Star break and anything can happen. Cleveland isn't going to win all the rest of their games. Houston isn't going to win all the rest of their games. They are on a roll right now, but baseball happens and they will go bad at some point. Even the almighty Cubs have won only 1 of their last 7.

[GreenSox]

Of course, the Peavy deal (contract extension) was not exactly met with universal praise, either. Seemed a bit ill-advised, like the club didn't have a clear direction. Same thing with the time when they extended Danks and turned around and traded their closer for scraps simultaneously.

 

Still amazed that we got anything out of Peavy.

He got a ML ready top prospect plus 3 low level minor leaguers. Opinions varied at the time of the quality of Garcia (he had plate discipline issues as a prospect) but the on paper return was pretty solid.

Peavy was having a solid year with a 1.13 WHIP and K rate in excess of 8 per 9. He was dealt to a contender that needed another starter to close out the regular season. Hahn took advantage of the opportunity.

Which is why I'm so stunned he reversed course in 2014 despite the progress being made. I guess it was this contrived/bogus/fictitious 3 year window Williams started yakking about. I suspected then and still suspect it was rushed in response to the Cubs; after all, the core was signed for another 5-6 years when Williams started talking "3 year window."

 

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by GreenSox

[TheTruth05]

Am I missing something here? Despite all of the moaning, the White Sox aren't on a pace to lose 140 games. They won 63 Hahn's first year, 73 his second, 76 his 3rd and are .500 right now despite an insanely bad stretch of baseball. The minor leaguers appear to be getting better. He's made some mistakes. All GMs made some mistakes. But they aren't dead this year. Finish up strong before the All Star break and anything can happen. Cleveland isn't going to win all the rest of their games. Houston isn't going to win all the rest of their games. They are on a roll right now, but baseball happens and they will go bad at some point. Even the almighty Cubs have won only 1 of their last 7.

 

This post could not be more accurate. Sox just went 5-2 last week and a favorable schedule coming up. Alot of baseball left and Sox are as ready as anyone to add and make a run. WC and Division are wide open. Cle and Hou will had more bad stretches.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colum...625-column.html

 

Paul Sullivan one of the first local Chicago media members to turn the accusing finger at Hahn.

 

 

The good news is the Sox can now focus on the American League Wild Card race, where they'll probably remain as long as they can hang around .500 into September.

 

Holy f***ing s***, Paul Sullivan... it's June 27th.

[flavum]

The Indians play the Blue Jays four games this coming weekend. I hope the Indians sweep them four games.

[caulfield12]

Am I missing something here? Despite all of the moaning, the White Sox aren't on a pace to lose 140 games. They won 63 Hahn's first year, 73 his second, 76 his 3rd and are .500 right now despite an insanely bad stretch of baseball. The minor leaguers appear to be getting better. He's made some mistakes. All GMs made some mistakes. But they aren't dead this year. Finish up strong before the All Star break and anything can happen. Cleveland isn't going to win all the rest of their games. Houston isn't going to win all the rest of their games. They are on a roll right now, but baseball happens and they will go bad at some point. Even the almighty Cubs have won only 1 of their last 7.

 

So what you're saying is that you had no expectations in 2013 and 2015, and perhaps this year...so when, realistically, did you expect them to actually compete?

 

We're moving the goalposts here to being "satisfied" with a .500ish finish when everyone said at the beginning of the year that such a mark would definitely get Ventura fired.

 

Can we expect to compete for a wild card finally in 2017?

 

Everything written here could have been cribbed from SoxTalk at this same exact time last year...or especially approaching the end of July, when the team went on a mini-run to hover around the .500 mark.

 

And I'm not sure what signs we're seeing about the minor league system...we have one of the worst combined records for all our minor league affiliates in all of baseball. Now, that alone isn't indicative of a poor system, but it's just one of many signs. Sure, Collins/Burdi/Hansen are encouraging, or Curbelo...and maybe those first three guys can all contribute in 2017, but that's the same old problem the White Sox are always accused of...rushing prospects to fill holes on the major league roster.

 

One paramount concern is that each year there's always one guy (last year, Montas) who really takes strides forward and make himself a legit candidate for inclusion in the Top 100 list. We don't have anyone approaching that right now. Maybe guys like Stephens or Engel or Danish are enough to snag Beltran or Bruce, guess we'll just have to wait and see. Bruce makes perfect sense because he would be under contract this year and next (club option), so they would have at least five legit core pieces (Eaton/Abreu/Frazier/Cabrera/Bruce + Anderson) going into a "make or break season."

 

 

And, if they do have to finally retool or dismantle the 2016/17 teams/rosters, there's just ZERO reason that Hahn would be the best candidate to do so.

[kitekrazy]

About time. Hahn has been making the precise opposite moves that winning teams make: acquiring the old players that winners sell-off for ML ready prospects. And when he did dump, they were Williams-like giveaways (except for Peavy).

 

He's just following the usual blueprint. Looking for lightning in a bottle. Doesn't seem so far removed from Kenny.

[GreenSox]

Who signed Paulo Orlando?

 

The White Sox should actually get some credit for that...the lifetime WAR of players originating in the Sox system.

Yep - traded for a rent of a Royals reliever in the same era that Williams was fishing in the Royals bullpen.

Orlando became a productive major leaguer at the age of 30...it would nice for the Sox to get lucky like that and hit on one of those guys who seem like AAAA players.

 

It's hard to measure the return because the Sox don't invest heavily internationally. Teams like the Rangers get a lot out of their international players...but they also invest a lot more than the Sox do. Would have thought the international market would have been a nice place for Laroche savings...instead Hahn put it on Shields.

[OmarComing25]

I will never stop beating the "Paulo Orlando is actually not good" drum.

[bmags]

I'd prefer to never be in the "Paul Sullivan" camp on anything.

[Quin]

I will never stop beating the "Paulo Orlando is actually not good" drum.

 

Also, we're complaining about a trade made 8 years ago.

[Thad Bosley]

He's just following the usual blueprint. Looking for lightning in a bottle. Doesn't seem so far removed from Kenny.

Where it gets interesting at Camp Reinsdorf is when the Chairman decides to weigh in with his views about getting from "Point A to Point B to Point C". Remember that doozy from back when Larry Himes was the GM in the late 80s? By year four of Himes' term he had built as strong of a core of young talent as you could hope for, collected through both strong draft choices and shrewd trades, resulting in a 94 win season in Himes' fourth year.

 

Yet in his relentless wisdom, Reinsdorf decided to give Himes the heave-ho at the end of that fourth year, reasoning in somewhat of a flimsy fashion that he felt while Himes was able to get the team from "Point A to Point B", he didn't think he was the guy to get the team to "Point C".

 

(Meanwhile, the guy he brought into replace Himes, Ron Schueler, spent ten years failing to get the team to Point C himself, but I digress!).

 

But here we are in Year Five under Hahn's direction, and Point B doesn't appear to be anywhere in sight. I guess the famed loyalty program wasn't quite as established back in Himes' day as it appears to be today. Too bad for Larry!

Edited June 27, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[Dick Allen]

So what you're saying is that you had no expectations in 2013 and 2015, and perhaps this year...so when, realistically, did you expect them to actually compete?

 

We're moving the goalposts here to being "satisfied" with a .500ish finish when everyone said at the beginning of the year that such a mark would definitely get Ventura fired.

 

Can we expect to compete for a wild card finally in 2017?

 

Everything written here could have been cribbed from SoxTalk at this same exact time last year...or especially approaching the end of July, when the team went on a mini-run to hover around the .500 mark.

 

And I'm not sure what signs we're seeing about the minor league system...we have one of the worst combined records for all our minor league affiliates in all of baseball. Now, that alone isn't indicative of a poor system, but it's just one of many signs. Sure, Collins/Burdi/Hansen are encouraging, or Curbelo...and maybe those first three guys can all contribute in 2017, but that's the same old problem the White Sox are always accused of...rushing prospects to fill holes on the major league roster.

 

One paramount concern is that each year there's always one guy (last year, Montas) who really takes strides forward and make himself a legit candidate for inclusion in the Top 100 list. We don't have anyone approaching that right now. Maybe guys like Stephens or Engel or Danish are enough to snag Beltran or Bruce, guess we'll just have to wait and see. Bruce makes perfect sense because he would be under contract this year and next (club option), so they would have at least five legit core pieces (Eaton/Abreu/Frazier/Cabrera/Bruce + Anderson) going into a "make or break season."

 

 

And, if they do have to finally retool or dismantle the 2016/17 teams/rosters, there's just ZERO reason that Hahn would be the best candidate to do so.

If anyone knows goalpost moving, you are the one.

 

If you want to judge your minor leagues on W-L records, you have a big problem. The object isn't to win games, it's to develop players. It's a much better system than when Hahn took over. In fact, you yourself Mr. Goalpost said the ONLY reason to pay attention to the White Sox anymore was Tim Anderson, and the 3 draft picks this year.

 

You pointed out they would get rolled by Toronto, that Minnesota is playing better (they have won 6 of their last 16) and are out for revenge, so the Sox have no chance against them, and that then the trip to Houston where the Astros pretty much won't lose again will end the White Sox season.

 

You are just wrong. Again. They are competing right now. In fact, before the season started you stated Detroit and KC were all in, the Sox were just eating at the kiddie table. They are right with them. Cleveland has busted out on a hot streak, but they, as unbelievable as this may seem, will go bad again.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Lip Man 1]

Where it gets interesting at Camp Reinsdorf is when the Chairman decides to weigh in with his views about getting from "Point A to Point B to Point C". Remember that doozy from back when Larry Himes was the GM in the late 80s? By year four of Himes' term he had built as strong of a core of young talent as you could hope for, collected through both strong draft choices and shrewd trades, resulting in a 94 win season in Himes' fourth year.

 

Yet in his relentless wisdom, Reinsdorf decided to give Himes the heave-ho at the end of that fourth year, reasoning in somewhat of a flimsy fashion that he felt while Himes was able to get the team from "Point A to Point B", he didn't think he was the guy to get the team to "Point C".

 

(Meanwhile, the guy he brought into replace Himes, Ron Schueler, spent ten years failing to get the team to Point C himself, but I digress!).

 

But here we are in Year Five under Hahn's direction, and Point B doesn't appear to be anywhere in sight. I guess the famed loyalty program wasn't quite as established back in Himes' day as it appears to be today. Too bad for Larry!

 

Himes was fired because JR didn't get along with him. The straw that broke the camels back happened at the trade deadline of 1990 according to what Jeff Torborg told me:

 

ML: At the trade deadline the Sox were only three games behind the A’s yet the only thing the organization did was get reserve outfielder Phil Bradley from the Orioles. Were you disappointed especially since there was a lot of talk about the Sox getting guys like pitcher Mike Scott?

 

JT: “Sure we were disappointed especially since that same day the A’s picked up Harold Baines and Willie McGee. I was sitting in my hotel room when I saw the news come across the TV and I thought ‘how did that happen?’ because we were behind Oakland, we could have put in a claim. At almost the same time I was thinking this I got a call from Jerry Reinsdorf and he asked me ‘what’s going on?’ All I could tell him was that I didn’t know.”

 

“And you mentioned Mike Scott…this is the first time I’ve ever heard anything like that. If that’s true that just goes to show you that I wasn’t involved in everything that may have been going on. (Author’s Note: ESPN’s “Baseball Tonight’s” lead anchor Dave Marash reported when Larry Himes was fired in mid September, that part of the reason was, that he wasn’t interested in trading any of his minor league talent for more highly regarded players for the stretch drive. This apparently caused a wedge between him and ownership.)

 

JR himself in a rare interview came right out and said why Himes was fired when he went on Chet Coppock's radio show that September. It basically was a Thibs comment years before that went down:

 

“The fact is, Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.”

 

Regarding the Hahn column, it's only natural that if the team continues to spin its wheels seemingly without direction (rebuild? reload? three year plan?) questions are going to start being asked about the decision makers above Ventura.

 

Mark

Edited June 27, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[GreenSox]

I will never stop beating the "Paulo Orlando is actually not good" drum.

Probably isn't; but it would be nice if, say, AAAA Shuck could get on a crazy roll like that, if only for this year. Sox are due for one of those lucky spots.

[Thad Bosley]

Himes was fired because JR didn't get along with him. The straw that broke the camels back happened at the trade deadline of 1990 according to what Jeff Torborg told me:

 

ML: At the trade deadline the Sox were only three games behind the A’s yet the only thing the organization did was get reserve outfielder Phil Bradley from the Orioles. Were you disappointed especially since there was a lot of talk about the Sox getting guys like pitcher Mike Scott?

 

JT: “Sure we were disappointed especially since that same day the A’s picked up Harold Baines and Willie McGee. I was sitting in my hotel room when I saw the news come across the TV and I thought ‘how did that happen?’ because we were behind Oakland, we could have put in a claim. At almost the same time I was thinking this I got a call from Jerry Reinsdorf and he asked me ‘what’s going on?’ All I could tell him was that I didn’t know.”

 

“And you mentioned Mike Scott…this is the first time I’ve ever heard anything like that. If that’s true that just goes to show you that I wasn’t involved in everything that may have been going on. (Author’s Note: ESPN’s “Baseball Tonight’s” lead anchor Dave Marash reported when Larry Himes was fired in mid September, that part of the reason was, that he wasn’t interested in trading any of his minor league talent for more highly regarded players for the stretch drive. This apparently caused a wedge between him and ownership.)

 

JR himself in a rare interview came right out and said why Himes was fired when he went on Chet Coppock's radio show that September. It basically was a Thibs comment years before that went down:

 

“The fact is, Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.”

 

Regarding the Hahn column, it's only natural that if the team continues to spin its wheels seemingly without direction (rebuild? reload? three year plan?) questions are going to start being asked about the decision makers above Ventura.

 

Mark

Himes is an interesting story. I don't know if he was hired to get along with everybody or to build a ballclub with a strong nucleus poised to go on a solid run for several years.

 

When you look at Himes' body of work with the Sox in those four years he was here, the guy really did build quite a solid core. Remember, he took over the shambles left from the Hawk's rather tenuous year at the helm in '86. From there Himes drafted the likes of McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez in the first rounds, and also the likes of Jason Bere, Ray Durham, and James Baldwin in subsequent rounds.

 

He also traded away veterans for young, cost-controlled players (now where have we heard that term in recent years!) like Melido Perez, Greg Hibbard, Eric King, Lance Johnson, Wilson Alvarez, and (cough) Sammy Sosa. That happened primarily over a three year period from '87-'89, and then the next thing you knew, there was a 94 game win season in his fourth (and last) season. The man had a plan when it came to building from within and augmenting with trades for the type of young, cost-controlled players that Hahn has TALKED about getting over the past five years but rarely has.

 

So the unlikeable chap got the team from Point A to Point B in four years, and certainly put them in a solid position to get to Point C. To the apparently nice guys running the show now in their fifth year whom the owner and others throughout the organization like, we ask, where is their Point B? Is it the second wild card this year, maybe? Who knows. All I know is 94 wins seems a long ways away at the moment.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[chisox802]

If anyone knows goalpost moving, you are the one.

 

If you want to judge your minor leagues on W-L records, you have a big problem. The object isn't to win games, it's to develop players. It's a much better system than when Hahn took over. In fact, you yourself Mr. Goalpost said the ONLY reason to pay attention to the White Sox anymore was Tim Anderson, and the 3 draft picks this year.

 

You pointed out they would get rolled by Toronto, that Minnesota is playing better (they have won 6 of their last 16) and are out for revenge, so the Sox have no chance against them, and that then the trip to Houston where the Astros pretty much won't lose again will end the White Sox season.

 

You are just wrong. Again. They are competing right now. In fact, before the season started you stated Detroit and KC were all in, the Sox were just eating at the kiddie table. They are right with them. Cleveland has busted out on a hot streak, but they, as unbelievable as this may seem, will go bad again.

 

I agree with all of this. Cleveland is very hot, but they will cool off here eventually. It's going to come down to our head to head with the BIG 3 the later in the season. Hopefully this time we perform a little better......

[SCCWS]

I agree with all of this. Cleveland is very hot, but they will cool off here eventually. It's going to come down to our head to head with the BIG 3 the later in the season. Hopefully this time we perform a little better......

 

I agree with all this. But the Sox are probably due for an injury to a major player or two like most teams. So they have to be able to compensate with a very limited bench. I think they desperately need to find another 4/5 SP. I don't even know who comes up if one of the 5 starters hits the DL. I guess Beck would be the 6th starter on the depth chart

[southsider2k5]

I know people like to talk about the McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Alvarez stretch of #1 draft picks, but with Tim Anderson in the majors we have 3 #1 picks in the majors from a four year stretch. (Sale, Hawkins, Anderson, Rodon) with Fulmer and Burdi looming in the next year or so. Sale and Anderson have made the majors from the 13th and 17th picks respectively, when compared to that earlier stretch, none of those guys was picked worse than #10.

[bmags]

I agree with all this. But the Sox are probably due for an injury to a major player or two like most teams. So they have to be able to compensate with a very limited bench. I think they desperately need to find another 4/5 SP. I don't even know who comes up if one of the 5 starters hits the DL. I guess Beck would be the 6th starter on the depth chart

 

Ranaudo/Beck/Carroll. Not good.

[Dick Allen]

Ranaudo/Beck/Carroll. Not good.

I'm kind of digging Beck in the bullpen.

 

Also, don't look now, but Carson Fulmer is starting to figure things out.

[bmags]

I'm kind of digging Beck in the bullpen.

 

Also, don't look now, but Carson Fulmer is starting to figure things out.

 

Really want to see Fulmer get his K's and strike percentage up before moving up.

 

I am very happy Beck came back from injury strong, but I really wish we could get more K power pitchers in pen. Maybe him going all out gets his velocity up and gets more swings and misses, but I wish he could have made it as a starter. Would have made a lot of things easier if Erik Johnson and Beck panned out.

[Jake]

Really want to see Fulmer get his K's and strike percentage up before moving up.

 

I am very happy Beck came back from injury strong, but I really wish we could get more K power pitchers in pen. Maybe him going all out gets his velocity up and gets more swings and misses, but I wish he could have made it as a starter. Would have made a lot of things easier if Erik Johnson and Beck panned out.

 

FWIW, in his brief run as a reliever in AAA Beck was striking out about 9 per 9 IP.