2016-2017 NBA Thread

[Chisoxfn]

You're right. Expecting Hoiberg to win with last year's roster and this year's roster is a bit insane. But the 2 people who thought it wasn't unreasonable are Gar and Pax. Thibs was supposed to win, and when he couldn't he had to go, and they and JR couldn't kick him enough on the way out.

Last year was a far bigger disappointment then this year, imo. Partly because last year lowered expectations a lot. Nate Silver's model (which also had the Warriors and Cavs as the top two teams) projected the Bulls to go 48-34, which would have put them as the 9th best team in the NBA (and 3rd best team in the east...one win behind the Celtics). 88% shot at winning the playoffs. Silver's model has generally been pretty solid at modeling out NBA teams (not to say it is perfect). This years team had just a 48% shot. If he weren't a rookie last year, that season would have gotten many coaches canned (expectations vs. reality were far off).

 

This year, they are kind of in-line with where many expected them to be, but the lack of development should be concerning.

[Chisoxfn]

Fred Hoiberg might be a bad coach. Personnel is a much bigger issue though. They've drafted really poorly and added a bunch of guys that don't even fit what the HC wants to do. Hoiberg might be terrible but how could anyone tell?

I wonder what it says that we have started solid to strong both years and then totally collapsed says? Remember last years Bulls team had a very promising start (not we are going to win it all promising, but we are going to be a top 3 seed in the east promising).

[Chisoxfn]

Realistically, they should can Gar now and bring in a new GM (now), who can then start to work with Paxson on whatever the long term plan is (I still support Paxson as a president...although I'm just fine if they dumped him too), start to retool the roster the way they want to, let the new GM evaluate the coach, and at the end of the year, make a decision on the coach. I don't see how you could let Gar dump Hoiberg, though.

[bmags]

The last 4 years he's draft a lot of guys that are not very athletic, can't rebound or steal.

 

Niko is athletic but can't shoot or defend.

[Chisoxfn]

On a sidenote, I actually am happy that Hoiberg has shown some stones (for the first time as a coach) these past couple of weeks (first time where I ever felt he actually "coached") when he benched Niko and now with what he's done with Rondo (all more then deserving). In general, I have thought Fred has given guys way too long of rope.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Gar Forman's wife and Michael Reinsdorf's wife are best friends. They also think it's beneficial to get into the playoffs rather than going young and losing. I wouldn't expect anything to change.

[Chisoxfn]

Gar Forman's wife and Michael Reinsdorf's wife are best friends. They also think it's beneficial to get into the playoffs rather than going young and losing. I wouldn't expect anything to change.

It certainly seems that Paxson has been more visible (since the end of last year) and that his comments haven't exactly been ringing endorsements of Gar. I don't know what we are going to do, but I would hope at some point Reinsdorf could separate business from friendship. Also, while I know Michael is being groomed to take on the chairman role when Reinsdorf passes (as the general thoughts are the Bulls will maintain ownership after Jerry passes away), I would suspect JR would still have a pretty heavy say in the matter still.

[Kyyle23]

It certainly seems that Paxson has been more visible (since the end of last year) and that his comments haven't exactly been ringing endorsements of Gar. I don't know what we are going to do, but I would hope at some point Reinsdorf could separate business from friendship.

 

 

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

[LittleHurt05]

Do the Bulls own LeBron in the regular season or is it just me?

 

(Obviously that means absolutely nothing but it seems like they always step up in "big" games during the regular season )

[southsider2k5]

There is no more infuriating team than the Bulls in the NBA. They own wins against Cleveland (2) and San Antonio this year. They also own losses against Timberwolves, Dallas, and the Lakers.

 

They can win, there are just times they choose not to.

[Chisoxfn]

There is no more infuriating team than the Bulls in the NBA. They own wins against Cleveland (2) and San Antonio this year. They also own losses against Timberwolves, Dallas, and the Lakers.

 

They can win, there are just times they choose not to.

To me, it is an inditement on their coach (and obviously players) cause it does seem they play pretty solid against good teams, while wetting the bed against more mediocre teams. The general thoughts are, our coaching staff can't get our guys to play at consistent levels. That said, last night was one of the more enjoyable Bulls games in a while (despite the Cavs obviously missing Kyrie / Love). Niko actually took good shots (and by that, I mean he took three's where he had his feet set and was in good form, with the exception of about one three last night). That is not the norm out of him as he usually has such poor shooting fundamentals (because he takes a lot of bad / rushed shots). When he actually uses his right mechanics, he's lethal from long range and Doug was fantastic in that 2nd quarter.

 

MCW is such a step up from Rondo, mainly because he isn't afraid to go for the shot. That drive and dunk he had was awesome to watch last night. MCW has his own massive limitations cause he clearly can't shoot that well, but he's clearly a major upgrade (both offensively / defensively) from Rondo who has been totally worthless this year. Grant doesn't show me much and Valentine got hurt a day where he played well (couple nights back) which stinks cause I'd like him to get more minutes.

 

They did this all on a night where Butler struggled, up until the fourth, where he played like the superstar he is. Taj was fantastic too. Unfortunate how crappy / inconsistent a lot of our parts are and in Doug's case, I don't really understand why we don't look to get him more involved cause he's such a damn good scorer. Wish we could replace Wade / Rondo with Cousins / CP3.

[Steve9347]

There is no more infuriating team than the Bulls in the NBA. They own wins against Cleveland (2) and San Antonio this year. They also own losses against Timberwolves, Dallas, and the Lakers.

 

They can win, there are just times they choose not to.

Last night Kyrie and Love didn't play so I wouldn't put a ton of stock in it. The Spurs game was a s***show on both sides which happens from time to time.

[Chisoxfn]

Cavs evidently interested in Rondo. Not sure if that would be via trade (as I don't know how salaries would match) or if it would be if the Bulls released him.

[bmags]

I would enjoy getting rid of Rondo.

[GGajewski18]

Ric Bucher is saying that the Bulls are shopping Jimmy Butler.....

[bmags]

Gar. Forman. Should. Not. Get. A. 3rd. Try.

[Chisoxfn]

Ric Bucher is saying that the Bulls are shopping Jimmy Butler.....

On the bright side, his value is only higher now then it was in the off-season.

[Dick Allen]

On the bright side, his value is only higher now then it was in the off-season.

Yes, but since there almost certainly would be draft picks involved, in season, its not clear where those picks are in the draft and who is available.

 

There probably is very little chance he is dealt during the season. But might as well have your ducks in a row for next June.

 

Realistically, he probably has to go.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Dick Allen

[Chisoxfn]

Yes, but since there almost certainly would be draft picks involved, in season, its not clear where those picks are in the draft and who is available.

 

There probably is very little chance he is dealt during the season. But might as well have your ducks in a row for next June.

 

Realistically, he probably has to go.

We know where I stand on this, I think we should build around him. Guy is a superstar and that is the hardest thing to find. We need to find more stars to put around him, but he's also signed to a cheap deal, works hard, etc. I do agree with you, if you are doing it for picks, you need to wait until you know what pick you are getting (you don't want to get robbed in the lottery). That said, what if the Twolves have decided they need Butler (a more proven player to help take them to the next level) and offered a package surrounded around Wiggins, Dunn (or Lavine), and a picks? I think if you trade Butler now, you are doing it for a team who is tired of not having a star and has a lot of young talented assets now + a high pick. I haven't paid attention to Dunn so I don't know how bad he has looked (obviously his numbers have been brutal).

 

I think you need two stars to have a legitimate shot at winning a title (not two stars and garbage, but without two stars, I don't think you have a chance) and Butler is a star...if you get rid of him, we go back to the drawing board where we need a lot of stars. You also need quality players obviously around those stars, but it is easier to find quality players then stars.

 

In Boston's case, I really don't know what they can offer that makes it worthwhile, especially in-season.

[Bananarchy]

We know where I stand on this, I think we should build around him. Guy is a superstar and that is the hardest thing to find. We need to find more stars to put around him, but he's also signed to a cheap deal, works hard, etc. I do agree with you, if you are doing it for picks, you need to wait until you know what pick you are getting (you don't want to get robbed in the lottery). That said, what if the Twolves have decided they need Butler (a more proven player to help take them to the next level) and offered a package surrounded around Wiggins, Dunn (or Lavine), and a picks? I think if you trade Butler now, you are doing it for a team who is tired of not having a star and has a lot of young talented assets now + a high pick. I haven't paid attention to Dunn so I don't know how bad he has looked (obviously his numbers have been brutal).

 

I think you need two stars to have a legitimate shot at winning a title (not two stars and garbage, but without two stars, I don't think you have a chance) and Butler is a star...if you get rid of him, we go back to the drawing board where we need a lot of stars. You also need quality players obviously around those stars, but it is easier to find quality players then stars.

 

In Boston's case, I really don't know what they can offer that makes it worthwhile, especially in-season.

I agree with your "two star" argument, but Jimmy is the Pippen not the Jordan. It's harder to get that number 1 star on your team, and Jimmy is arguably too good to let the team really tank into a solid draft pick.

 

Since we know Gar won't go out and draft a diamond in the rough (he can't even draft serviceable players), I feel like Jimmy needs to be traded to cause us to get younger and drop in the draft order.

[Chisoxfn]

I agree with your "two star" argument, but Jimmy is the Pippen not the Jordan. It's harder to get that number 1 star on your team, and Jimmy is arguably too good to let the team really tank into a solid draft pick.

 

Since we know Gar won't go out and draft a diamond in the rough (he can't even draft serviceable players), I feel like Jimmy needs to be traded to cause us to get younger and drop in the draft order.

Jimmy has taken so many steps forward, that I think you can win a championship with him as your best player. Clearly, building a roster better then the Warriors / Cavs will be tough, as they are pretty clearly the two best teams in the association, imo. I think the key is finding your serviceable players via the draft (since you won't have the high end lotto pick) and landing your big fish via free agency. Reality is free agency is the equalizer in the NBA and with the way players buddy up, I think it is going to be hard just to draft yourself a championship team.

 

Technically Jimmy Butler was a diamond in the rough drafted by Gar...although clearly we have struggled to get an impact player out of the draft over the past few years. Also, Pippen practically won a title on his own that one year without Jordan (different era), and if I had Pippen and no Jordan, instead of dumping Pippen and hitting reset, I'd have been trying hard to get the next pieces. Of course, I am different then others in the sense that I value very good teams and don't ultimately view a championship as the definition of a successful season. If we lost conference finals, in grand scheme, I'd be content...sure if we lost 5 years in a row I'd get frustrated, but I wouldn't want to go the inverse where I could end up being terrible for a long time. I think people quickly forget how bad the Bulls were post-Jordan and how long it took to even get back into the playoffs (and even then, it was a really really long time before we ever had any sort of shot at being a championship contender and that window was short thanks to Rose's injury).

 

To me it is easier to get on the short list of contenders when you have a star and need to add a big fish or two via free agency, then it is when you just have some lottery picks and a no star. None of the routes are easy, but I view the first route as easier and also less likely to result in a total long term dumpster fire.

[Balta1701]

Jimmy has taken so many steps forward, that I think you can win a championship with him as your best player. Clearly, building a roster better then the Warriors / Cavs will be tough, as they are pretty clearly the two best teams in the association, imo. I think the key is finding your serviceable players via the draft (since you won't have the high end lotto pick) and landing your big fish via free agency. Reality is free agency is the equalizer in the NBA and with the way players buddy up, I think it is going to be hard just to draft yourself a championship team.

 

Technically Jimmy Butler was a diamond in the rough drafted by Gar...although clearly we have struggled to get an impact player out of the draft over the past few years. Also, Pippen practically won a title on his own that one year without Jordan (different era), and if I had Pippen and no Jordan, instead of dumping Pippen and hitting reset, I'd have been trying hard to get the next pieces. Of course, I am different then others in the sense that I value very good teams and don't ultimately view a championship as the definition of a successful season. If we lost conference finals, in grand scheme, I'd be content...sure if we lost 5 years in a row I'd get frustrated, but I wouldn't want to go the inverse where I could end up being terrible for a long time. I think people quickly forget how bad the Bulls were post-Jordan and how long it took to even get back into the playoffs (and even then, it was a really really long time before we ever had any sort of shot at being a championship contender and that window was short thanks to Rose's injury).

 

To me it is easier to get on the short list of contenders when you have a star and need to add a big fish or two via free agency, then it is when you just have some lottery picks and a no star. None of the routes are easy, but I view the first route as easier and also less likely to result in a total long term dumpster fire.

My reply to this is...ok...I'm willing to consider that you're right...but you also told me one thing specifically, that if we brought in D-Wade, Wade would be the guy who helped us get over the hump in recruiting FA. So, bringing in Rondo helped land Wade and bringing in Wade both could have helped butler a little bit and is supposed to help us get over that hump. Regardless of how poorly constructed this roster was, and that was obvious at the time - that would all be redeemed if we landed a strong enough FA class.

 

So, your plan is on the clock next offseason. Bring it.

[thxfrthmmrs]

First return for the all star ballot and Jimmy is only 6th, behind Lebron, Giannis, Embiid, Love and Melo. Are Giannis and Embiid getting a lot of votes from their home countries like Zaza?

[SoxAce]

I know he's in a small market, but how in the hell is Westbrook not in the top 5 in all star voting? That guy is fun to watch.

[Chisoxfn]

My reply to this is...ok...I'm willing to consider that you're right...but you also told me one thing specifically, that if we brought in D-Wade, Wade would be the guy who helped us get over the hump in recruiting FA. So, bringing in Rondo helped land Wade and bringing in Wade both could have helped butler a little bit and is supposed to help us get over that hump. Regardless of how poorly constructed this roster was, and that was obvious at the time - that would all be redeemed if we landed a strong enough FA class.

 

So, your plan is on the clock next offseason. Bring it.

I agree, next off-season we need to try and land a free agent. But It isn't like Jimmy Butler isn't under contract for a couple of years. Rondo clearly sucks. And I echo my sentiments that if we traded Butler for what was rumored to be on the table in the off-season, we would be in a much worse position. Having a guy who is a top 10 player in the association, signed to a below market deal, is a good thing to have, especially in a star driven league. I will caveat by saying, its pretty clear I don't think we have the right people running the show (as I think I've historically been about as anti-hoiberg as anyone on this board). I'm also very pro Jimmy Butler. I adore watching him, love his interviews, just a huge fan all the way around.

I enjoy basketball and a lot of people wanting to blow things off, were talking about how great Hinkie was as GM of the 76ers, but man, I would go mad if we were the 76ers, who have won nothing over the past few years, and don't have a player on their roster even close to as good as Jimmy Butler (Embiid is very good, but big men with injury track records aren't a good bet for long-term success, imo).

 

Heck, look at the eastern conference and how many teams have sucked for so long which just further shows how hard things can be. I'd take my chances on surrounding Butler with free agents before anything else. I'm not promising we'd be a title team a year from now (far from it), but I think we have a better chance of getting there in the next couple of years then we do if we just dumped everyone.