2016-2017 NBA Thread

[ChiSoxFanMike]

Who are you adding? Wade needs to leave in order for the Bulls to offer another max contract. The only guy that I could see coming to Chicago is Gordon Hayward. Hello 6th seed. Jimmy Butler is 28 years old. There is no path to being good with him the next 2 seasons. After that, he will need a new contract. Free agents won't be leaving their teams as much anymore. They especially won't be coming here. I've offered a plan. Nobody else has. You guys all say "add better players, draft better, you have a superstar get another one" and I hear "blahblahblah yay playoff basketball again". This organization is the biggest f***ing joke in Chicago. They have 1 option. Tear it to the ground. Building around Butler keeps you competitive but doesn't put you in the discussion to win titles. It's just kicking the can down the road. This plan isn't necessarily feasible but it's best option: Trade Niko and Taj for whatever you can get. Fire Gar Forman. Hire Matt Lloyd as GM. Trade Jimmy Butler for 2017 Brooklyn swap and 2018 Brooklyn 1st along with some combination of players from Boston. Dwyane Wade opts out. Bulls are bad the rest of the year and end up with a top 10 pick. Bulls also move Kings into the 11-14 range and take Brooklyn's top 3 selection. 3 lottery picks in this draft, one of which should be 1 of the big 3 PG's sets the Bulls up nicely into the future. They'd also have 2 lottery picks next year. They'd be bad and Boston may not make that deal but this gives you a much more realistic path to a title than patching s*** around Jimmy Butler does. It won't happen though because Michael Reinsdorf likes selling bobble heads and collecting playoff revenue. 1998 was a long ass time ago.

What you're failing to address in this gigantic wall of text is the fact that the Bulls haven't drafted a productive player in quite some time. Why does that change now? They could trade Butler, draft busts with those lottery picks, and then they'll be in a worse position than they were with Butler. I have no confidence in the Bulls to make the right personnel decisions.

Edited February 2, 2017 by ChiSoxFanMike

[southsider2k5]

What you're failing to address in this gigantic wall of text is the fact that the Bulls haven't drafted a productive player in quite some time. Why does that change now? They could trade Butler, draft busts with those lottery picks, and then they'll be in a worse position than they were with Butler. I have no confidence in the Bulls to make the right personnel decisions.

 

There is the obvious that it is much easier to draft a star in the top 5 then it is at #20.

[Y2Jimmy0]

What you're failing to address in this gigantic wall of text is the fact that the Bulls haven't drafted a productive player in quite some time. Why does that change now? They could trade Butler, draft busts with those lottery picks, and then they'll be in a worse position than they were with Butler. I have no confidence in the Bulls to make the right personnel decisions.

 

 

That's truly a warranted concern and I did suggest firing Forman. Matt Lloyd was instrumental in many of their solid picks including (Butler, Taj). I never said it would definitely work. I said it's a better option. Markelle Fulz of Washington, Dennis Smith of NC State and Lonzo Ball from UCLA are high quality PG prospects that should be top 3 picks. Draft also has a few Kentucky players, Josh Jackson from Kansas and Jonathan Isaac from FSU not to mention others. It's a great draft. If it wasn't I wouldn't be suggesting what I'm suggesting.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

That's truly a warranted concern and I did suggest firing Forman. Matt Lloyd was instrumental in many of their solid picks including (Butler, Taj). I never said it would definitely work. I said it's a better option. Markelle Fulz of Washington, Dennis Smith of NC State and Lonzo Ball from UCLA are high quality PG prospects that should be top 3 picks. Draft also has a few Kentucky players, Josh Jackson from Kansas and Jonathan Isaac from FSU not to mention others. It's a great draft. If it wasn't I wouldn't be suggesting what I'm suggesting.

That's true. Your plan is definitely logical and would make sense for any team other than the Bulls. The Bulls simply haven't shown that they know how to draft/develop as of late, so I'm still skeptical that they'd win a potential Butler deal. I just think that given their front office deficiencies and other circumstances, I think the Bulls are better off patching the team around Butler than starting over and hoping to hit it big with a bunch of unknowns.

[Chisoxfn]

There is the obvious that it is much easier to draft a star in the top 5 then it is at #20.

If you look back over the past three years, no player drafted is anywhere close to Jimmy's stratesphere today. So if we tanked in that period, where exactly would we be? Joel Embiid is the closest thing and he's done it for a few months and has an injury riddled past. Players take time, but Towns / Wiggins / Embiid (going back to the last three years worth of drafts) are probably the three best players taken the past three years (thus far). I expect Ben Simmons to be in that conversation soon.

 

Devin Booker (13th overall) is probably the next best player (as well as Porzingis) and obviously the three names mentioned above were high picks, but when you look at 14/15/16, you'll see a lot of really really awful players drafted very early on. So no, I don't really think just burning it all down is that great of a plan. I think having good draft picks helps, but there is so much luck...you need to be the team sitting @ 1 when LBJ is there or Anthony Davis.

 

I think everyone should take a look at the list of draft picks the last few years and just realize that getting top picks is no guarantee of anything. If we are lucky we end up with one superstar and even then, like I said, I don't find it that likely. By the way, I didn't even mention the 2013 draft where you are talking about almost every pick in the top 10 being an absolute nobody in the league at this point (with the exception of Oladipo, who is a solid starter, and the 10th overall selection CJ McCollum who is really good and of course the greek freek drafted 15th overall).

 

I think it is more likely we can sign someone in free agency, make the right trade, etc (not to mention Jimmy takes another step forward), then the alternative. You all keep throwing out 30, yes it is getting older, but I figure Jimmy has at least 4-6 years left of prime basketball (and he works hard), so why blow something up when we literally are in the first year of ever having this "prime" Jimmy around. I don't quite know if people realize how f***ing good he has been this year and also if you look at our bench plays, etc, if people realize how bad they have been. I at least give this one, if not two more years of trying to build around Jimmy. We also forget that Wade loves Jimmy, Kyrie love Jimmy....lots of star players like Jimmy and he's going to recruit like a mofo because he wants to win like nobodies business (it is so evident in how hard he has worked to make his game better).

 

We have a bunch of weak bench players, with no mental fortitude led by a weak handed head coach. Gar is a joke too by the way and Pax is the one overseeing it all so he clearly deserves fall in this too.

 

Oh and the Bulls can figure out how to get a max player under their cap while keeping Wade.

 

PS: Mike, most of these comments aren't direct at you.

[Y2Jimmy0]

If you look back over the past three years, no player drafted is anywhere close to Jimmy's stratesphere today. So if we tanked in that period, where exactly would we be? Joel Embiid is the closest thing and he's done it for a few months and has an injury riddled past. Players take time, but Towns / Wiggins / Embiid (going back to the last three years worth of drafts) are probably the three best players taken the past three years (thus far). I expect Ben Simmons to be in that conversation soon.

 

Devin Booker (13th overall) is probably the next best player (as well as Porzingis) and obviously the three names mentioned above were high picks, but when you look at 14/15/16, you'll see a lot of really really awful players drafted very early on. So no, I don't really think just burning it all down is that great of a plan. I think having good draft picks helps, but there is so much luck...you need to be the team sitting @ 1 when LBJ is there or Anthony Davis.

 

I think everyone should take a look at the list of draft picks the last few years and just realize that getting top picks is no guarantee of anything. If we are lucky we end up with one superstar and even then, like I said, I don't find it that likely. By the way, I didn't even mention the 2013 draft where you are talking about almost every pick in the top 10 being an absolute nobody in the league at this point (with the exception of Oladipo, who is a solid starter, and the 10th overall selection CJ McCollum who is really good and of course the greek freek drafted 15th overall).

 

I think it is more likely we can sign someone in free agency, make the right trade, etc (not to mention Jimmy takes another step forward), then the alternative. You all keep throwing out 30, yes it is getting older, but I figure Jimmy has at least 4-6 years left of prime basketball (and he works hard), so why blow something up when we literally are in the first year of ever having this "prime" Jimmy around. I don't quite know if people realize how f***ing good he has been this year and also if you look at our bench plays, etc, if people realize how bad they have been. I at least give this one, if not two more years of trying to build around Jimmy. We also forget that Wade loves Jimmy, Kyrie love Jimmy....lots of star players like Jimmy and he's going to recruit like a mofo because he wants to win like nobodies business (it is so evident in how hard he has worked to make his game better).

 

We have a bunch of weak bench players, with no mental fortitude led by a weak handed head coach. Gar is a joke too by the way and Pax is the one overseeing it all so he clearly deserves fall in this too.

 

Oh and the Bulls can figure out how to get a max player under their cap while keeping Wade.

 

PS: Mike, most of these comments aren't direct at you.

 

Jimmy is 28 though. I would take all of those players on this Bulls team instead of Butler. Butler wasn't as good as any of those guys at the same age. That's part of the point. Embiid, Porzingis, Towns, Wiggins, Simmons are all in their early 20's. None of them are as good as Butler right now but they are all in their only 20's.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

If I was the GM, the first things I'd do is tell Wade to GTFO, sign Gordon Hayward, and then have Butler recruit CP3. I'd also bring in some quality bench players and let Valentine/Zipser/McDermott have bigger roles on the team to see what they can do.

 

CP3/Butler/Hayward wouldn't be the Warriors or Cavs, but those 3 plus a decent bench would make the Bulls a contender IMO.

Edited February 2, 2017 by ChiSoxFanMike

[southsider2k5]

If I was the GM, the first things I'd do is tell Wade to GTFO, sign Gordon Hayward, and then have Butler recruit CP3. I'd also bring in some quality bench players and let Valentine/Zipser/McDermott have bigger roles on the team to see what they can do.

 

CP3/Butler/Hayward wouldn't be the Warriors or Cavs, but those 3 plus a decent bench would make the Bulls a contender IMO.

 

The easy question here is why would either Hayward or Chris Paul settle for less money and a worse chance of winning a title than other options they have?

[Steve9347]

So I have a question for those pro-tankers...or maybe it is more a random thought. But why has the East sucked compared to the West (basically since Jordan retired)? I would think with all of the draft picks the East would be collecting over that run, you'd have seen dominate teams in the East pop up and in general a shift in power, but that hasn't ever even come close to happening? Now I'm not saying all of those teams in the "East" were tanking and the "West" teams weren't, just saying, that if the logic is to get good you need to get bad, then how has the same conference been so much worse for basically 20 years?

I would imagine they simply have smarter braintrusts, personnel, and scouting departments.

[Steve9347]

If I was the GM, the first things I'd do is tell Wade to GTFO, sign Gordon Hayward, and then have Butler recruit CP3. I'd also bring in some quality bench players and let Valentine/Zipser/McDermott have bigger roles on the team to see what they can do.

 

CP3/Butler/Hayward wouldn't be the Warriors or Cavs, but those 3 plus a decent bench would make the Bulls a contender IMO.

I am not sure signing a then 33 year old PG who couldn't make an NBA Finals in all the chances with the Clippers is going to make us a contender.

 

Also, you just said CP3/Butler/Hayward wouldn't beat the Warriors or Cavs, but it would make us a contender? You aren't a contender unless you can win a title.

 

That team isn't winning a damn thing.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

I am not sure signing a then 33 year old PG who couldn't make an NBA Finals in all the chances with the Clippers is going to make us a contender.

 

Also, you just said CP3/Butler/Hayward wouldn't beat the Warriors or Cavs, but it would make us a contender? You aren't a contender unless you can win a title.

 

That team isn't winning a damn thing.

If that's the case, then there are only 3-4 true contenders max in the NBA at any given time and I don't see how trading Butler and accumulating picks would get the Bulls any closer to that elite group.

[Y2Jimmy0]

If that's the case, then there are only 3-4 true contenders max in the NBA at any given time and I don't see how trading Butler and accumulating picks would get the Bulls any closer to that elite group.

 

 

It could potentially get the Bulls into that group 4 years from now. They need to draft superstars and then keep them forever. The days of stars leaving via Free Agency is going to be over.

[Steve9347]

If that's the case, then there are only 3-4 true contenders max in the NBA at any given time and I don't see how trading Butler and accumulating picks would get the Bulls any closer to that elite group.

That's the point of this entire conversation. The only deal I've signed off on would be the Celtics deal because the Brooklyn picks could very well amount to two superstars.

 

We're not at a point where Jimmy will get us anything, and I'd rather not continue to be stuck in NBA hell.

[Jenksismyhero]

It could potentially get the Bulls into that group 4 years from now. They need to draft superstars and then keep them forever. The days of stars leaving via Free Agency is going to be over.

 

You keep saying this but every time the NBA tries to make this happen, stars still leave. You ignore that there are advantages beyond money for these guys. Endorsements, exposure, weather, income taxes, playing style, championships, etc. all play a factor.

 

I think it will affect some guys. It's not going to kill FA signings or trades.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

That's the point of this entire conversation. The only deal I've signed off on would be the Celtics deal because the Brooklyn picks could very well amount to two superstars.

 

We're not at a point where Jimmy will get us anything, and I'd rather not continue to be stuck in NBA hell.

 

A HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE if that won't come to fruition for another 5 seasons.

 

What's the rush? Butler is still under the Bull's control for 2 seasons. If they strike out in FA this summer, do this next year, or the year after. A 30 year old starting all-star butler is on par with a 28 year old starting all star Butler. He'll return the same value.

[southsider2k5]

That's the point of this entire conversation. The only deal I've signed off on would be the Celtics deal because the Brooklyn picks could very well amount to two superstars.

 

We're not at a point where Jimmy will get us anything, and I'd rather not continue to be stuck in NBA hell.

 

Honestly I don't want to see a deal done at all until a change is made in the front office is made. I have zero faith in Gar Forman to make a deal for Jimmy Butler that pays off. He hasn't earned any trust of being able to do the right thing here. I'd rather hold on to our one big asset until someone new get the keys.

[Y2Jimmy0]

A HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE if that won't come to fruition for another 5 seasons.

 

What's the rush? Butler is still under the Bull's control for 2 seasons. If they strike out in FA this summer, do this next year, or the year after. A 30 year old starting all-star butler is on par with a 28 year old starting all star Butler. He'll return the same value.

 

 

Brooklyn's 2017 top 3 pick won't be available after next season though.

[Y2Jimmy0]

You keep saying this but every time the NBA tries to make this happen, stars still leave. You ignore that there are advantages beyond money for these guys. Endorsements, exposure, weather, income taxes, playing style, championships, etc. all play a factor.

 

I think it will affect some guys. It's not going to kill FA signings or trades.

 

 

Which star player will leave their current team to come play with Jimmy Butler? Maybe Gordon Hayward. That move the needle for you?

[ChiSoxFanMike]

You keep saying this but every time the NBA tries to make this happen, stars still leave. You ignore that there are advantages beyond money for these guys. Endorsements, exposure, weather, income taxes, playing style, championships, etc. all play a factor.

 

I think it will affect some guys. It's not going to kill FA signings or trades.

Exactly.

 

Not every star is DeMarcus Cousins who is willing to stay in the NBA hellhole known as Sacramento based solely on money.

 

There are various other aspects that impact these decisions and free agency/trades won't change.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Exactly.

 

Not every star is DeMarcus Cousins who is willing to stay in the NBA hellhole known as Sacramento based solely on money.

 

There are various other aspects that impact these decisions and free agency/trades won't change.

 

 

Which free agent next offseason is leaving his current situation to play with Jimmy Butler in Chicago?

[Rowand44]

So anywho...anyone been watching IT lately? That dude is so damn fun to watch. Sure, he's an awful defender but he's not on my team so I don't give a damn.

[Y2Jimmy0]

So anywho...anyone been watching IT lately? That dude is so damn fun to watch. Sure, he's an awful defender but he's not on my team so I don't give a damn.

 

 

Do you know who could help make his defense not matter as much? Jimmy Butler

[Chisoxfn]

Do you know who could help make his defense not matter as much? Jimmy Butler

A third tier free agent who emerged into a superstar point guard (4 yr 27M deal...a total an utter bargain). A guy who even after playing great in Phoenix, traded for almost nothing to Boston. Going back to my point, I can't specify who we will get, but I certainly think we could lure / land players to make us better. Hell, we have had hot garbage at point guard and are a .500 team. I can't imagine how much better this team looks like with a real, quality point guard and there are a heck of a lot of them in this league, so I don't find it unrealistic that we could find one.

[Rowand44]

You guys are the worst.

[joejoedairy]

Do you know who could help make his defense not matter as much? Jimmy Butler

 

Doing your plan and ending up with 3 lottery picks in this draft would definitely be exciting.

 

IF Boston were willing to give up those 2 Nets picks plus a player or two for Butler I would have to seriously consider it.

 

 

But, you keep asking everyone what the path to winning a championship is if you keep Butler, which is impossible to answer because we have no idea who will come available or who might develop or if there are injuries to any key players.

 

You would be unable to answer that same championship path question with your plan because we have no idea who they would draft and how they would develop.

 

Firing Gar would certainly be a good start though.